Overwatch

Ravishing

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PTR is a shit place to judge imo. Wait till ranked where you're limited to 1 hero and people are playing against similarly skilled players.

I think this guy is no different than a Genji in how there will be a shitload of bad ones to offset the few good ones.

I think they'll put him on live in two weeks. Get your comp games in now because after he drops Comp will go to shit with shitty new Doomfist mains.

< doomfist main btw
 
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Araxen

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Jeff thinks the game is balanced and they'd rather balance from the bottom up instead of top down which I think is asinine. RH was nerfed because of all those bronze/silver/gold QP players bitching. They hold most of the power when it comes to balancing and getting what they want.

Looks like they are going to retune Mercy rezz. I for one wish they would get rid of it totally, or, at the very least, I hope they make it line of sight.

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20757706588?page=2#post-24

I’ve been reading the feedback regarding the current metagame and a general desire for “radical” balance changes to mix things up. I’ll offer some of my personal perspective but I’m a little nervous doing that for a few reasons. Even though I am the Game Director and a spokesperson for OW, I don’t make decisions in a vacuum and I am only one part of a very awesome team. Not everyone on my team agrees with me and we have different opinions on the state of game and balance overall. We do have a lot of alignment, but we talk things through – a lot. And we don’t always agree. So I know this will become the “official” response on the subject but I am really offering this from a very strong personal viewpoint first and foremost.

The most controversial thing I’ll say here (hopefully) is that I believe the game is currently balanced. What I mean is that I don’t feel like there are any heroes who are way too strong to the point of breaking balance. That doesn’t mean that I personally don’t think there are some problems with heroes. While I believe moving Roadhog away from a 1 shot combo was a necessary thing we had to do, I’m not entirely satisfied with where he’s at right now. I also think we need to do some brainstorming when it comes to Mercy’s resurrect, for example. The ability is extremely powerful in a very unfun way for both Mercy and everyone playing against that Mercy. But it’s not doomsday. These aren’t game breaking issues. They are better fixed slowly and carefully as the overall game is not ruined by them. I’m just using these as examples.

But I think the game is balanced. Statistically, the things that are most unbalanced aren’t what you think they are. Symmetra and Torbjorn win rates are not balanced. They are too good. But this is why we don’t balance on statistics alone. I don’t sense a great community uproar over the fact that Torb and Symmetra are “overpowered” right now (at least, statistically).

As I said last week, the perception of balance is more powerful than balance itself.

I really do not like summarizing the feedback from a large community because I think it’s unfair to so many people. But in general, I am getting the sense that the real issue people are feeling is that the “meta” does not shift as frequently as they would like. My sense is that players start with the pro scene and work their way down and base this feedback mostly on pick rates. In the pro scene, it’s true that the teams settle into using a subset of the hero pool. We tend to see high level (let’s just say the top 3rd of all players) competitive slowly catch up to the pro scene with some considerable lag of weeks if not months. The rest of us – the vast majority of us – don’t really play this meta at all but we’re aware of it either through community discussion or because we enjoy watching the pro scene.

There are a lot of ways the meta can change but if I had to boil it down to three main ways (that we see in video games at least) I would point to 1) something changes with the balance 2) players innovate new strategies 3) the game forces meta change through mechanics.

To comment on all 3…

I like when the meta changes on balance only when the game is not balanced and something was adjusted to make the game more balanced. Another way of putting this is, I do not agree with the philosophy that we should just make balance changes solely to shift people off the meta. The game team should be constantly evaluating balance and making changes that are actually needed because a hero is unbalanced. But making changes to a hero because their pick rate is too high or too low is not my idea of responsible game balance. Symmetra’s pick rate is very low right now. We could make changes to make her a “must pick” in the meta (and thus shifting the meta) but I feel like, if anything, I am concerned about Symmetra’s balance and worried that when she does eventually make her way back into the meta she is not balanced properly. So to summarize: balancing heroes who are unbalanced is good, balancing heroes just to make them picked more or picked less is not good (in my humble opinion).

Regarding the meta changing because players have innovated a new strategy – well – this is the best-case scenario. We’ve seen this happen time and time again. This usually happens in a pro tournament where a team pulls out a new strategy and performs well. This was how triple tank rose into fashion. Innovating out of a meta is extremely hard. All players are very different. Some are highly creative and some are excellent at executing. Some at both. Having the time and freedom to innovate on strategy is difficult no matter what level of play you’re at. Pros have busy schedules and it’s not always easy for them to practice new, out of the box things – especially if their tournament schedule is hectic. But when all is said and done, to me personally, the meta shifting because players innovate is the best possible outcome.

Lastly, a game can force a meta shift through mechanics. The MOBA genre has huge hero pools yet without pick and ban systems teams would inevitably play the same comps over and over. The game – through the mechanics of picking and banning – is forcing variety. We could do this in Overwatch. We could prevent certain heroes from being played some or all of the time or we could let your opponent prevent you from playing your desired hero. We could also force you or allow your opponent to force you to play a hero you don’t want to play. Personally, I am not a believer in these systems for OW (while I understand and respect why they use them in MOBA). I prefer to think that OW allows you to be creative which is different than forces you to be creative. I don’t want to watch the best Genji player in the world play Zarya – I want to see him/her play Genji. And also, seeing how many of you “main” heroes because you love them, I don’t want the game – or your opponent – telling you you’re not allowed to play that hero.

We recently added 6v6 Elimination to the Arcade and I think the mode is strong enough to exist in Quick Play and Competitive. That mode is a good example of a mechanical “forcing function” where the game causes shifts to happen in pick rates and team comps. The winning team is forced to play 18 diverse heroes. I would be willing to bet that if that mode was considered competitive, eventually a meta would settle in where 18 heroes were mostly picked and 7 would be rather neglected. Again, I don’t think this is horrible or the end of the world – I think it’s reality.

There are games with a set meta that evolve very slowly or remain stable for long periods of time and this doesn’t mean the game isn’t balanced or fun or fun to watch. Most of the pro sports fall into this category. TF2 was largely played Demo/Medic/Scout/Scout/Solider/Soldier and that was sort of just… accepted. It was fun to play and fun to watch. Baseball isn’t terrible or broken because every team puts their strongest batter 4th in the lineup.

But maybe I am off on what the expectation is from players here? I know the desire – and mine too – is that during every match of Overwatch all 25 heroes are viable at any time. The reality of gamers and video games is that any perceived (whether real or not) advantage is going to cause players to assume that they must play hero x over hero y. A professional Overwatch player will not player hero x if he/she thinks hero y is even 1% stronger. We can balance the heroes to equality but if there is the slightest perception of advantage, it won’t matter.

Looking at the perception of the meta, it’s obvious that “dive” is the predominant strategy. Correction. It is the predominant strategy being used in the professional scene. The majority of Overwatch players play Quick Play as their primary mode. The top 6 picked heroes (over the last month) in Quick Play are Genji, 76, Hanzo, McCree, Mercy and Junkrat. For the statistical majority of Overwatch players who are not pros and don’t play Competitive, this is your meta.

It drives players crazy when I post stats like that because they want to know about Competitive and not Quick Play. The point I am trying to make by posting Quick Play is that the numbers show that that is what the majority of players are *actually experiencing* which is different from *perceiving*. But looking at Competitive only… here are the top 6 picked heroes: Mercy (by a long shot), 76, D.Va, Lucio, Ana and Genji. Interestingly, number 7 is Reinhardt. Next tank after that is… Wi… no Roadhog. So in the past month in Comp, that’s what you’ve been actually playing.

But let’s talk about the elite players… maybe the top 3rd of all MMR. Their top picked hero over the past month was…. Ana. Yes, Ana.

I don’t mean to discount your fatigue with the “dive” meta but I also want us looking at from a realistic standpoint. Dive itself is an interesting comp. It’s fun to play and watch. It features super high skill heroes doing very OW things. Watching top Genji’s and Tracers is fantastic. I don’t think dive comp is bad but I think what players want is to see more comps in addition to dive comp. I too would love for this to happen. But in a non-forced, non-damaging way. I don’t think we should just throw a balance grenade at the heroes to change pick rates. And I don’t think long-term for the game it’s good to start imposing restrictions on you as to what hero you’re allowed or not allowed to play. I think we also need to be careful about demanding drastic change. A few months ago we nerfed D.Va and we faced the ire of many very upset players who thought we “ruined” the hero and she would never be played again. There was mega thread after mega thread demanding she be buffed. We held our ground because we believed she was fine. We did not touch her. And now she is one of the dominant heroes in the dive meta – clearly not in need of a buff.

Players think that every change we make to hero has the intent of buffing or nerfing that hero. Changes to heroes are usually made to make the game better. That’s what we were trying to do with Roadhog. Our goal wasn’t a nerf – our intent wasn’t a nerf. Our intent was to try to remove a behavior that had become “not ok” with our player base – the one-shot combo. Maybe he needs to be adjusted again? Probably. I am just using this as an example that not everything is super black and white. There is a gray area in making the game feel good. Sometimes we need to hold our ground and not make dramatic swings to the game.

I know this post will be met with a lot of disagreement. The desire for dive comp to go away will not be satisfied from some of you until Winston and D.Va are nerfed into the ground. But we’re not going to do that. We are going to make balance changes to heroes when they need it – and we do this more frequently than you give us credit for. 3 months from now there will be a new meta. If you’re the type of person who feels like the meta should shift every 2 weeks, then you’ll probably be sick of that meta and wishing it was back in the good ol’ dive comp days… I just caution against wanting change for the sake of change. The meta will shift soon enough.
 

ex-genj

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balance from the bottom up instead of top down which I think is asinine.

why though? I think thats fine and would much rather see enhancements to the crappy characters than downgrades to the best. RH nerf is an exception more than rule I'd think.
 

Araxen

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why though? I think thats fine and would much rather see enhancements to the crappy characters than downgrades to the best. RH nerf is an exception more than rule I'd think.

Sorry, I should have made it more clear. I'm referencing the player base on how they are balancing. I'd like them to fix up the crappy characters too, but they should be balancing around Competitive and the top tier players not the bottom tier players and QP. It just seems really counter-intuitive; especially, for a game that Blizzard has huge esports aspirations for.
 

Zaphid

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If they ever want to have meta shifting, just let people ban 1 hero in competitive or after they add 5+ characters, we could have picks and bans like every other character based pro game ...
 
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Araxen

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If they ever want to have meta shifting, just let people ban 1 hero in competitive or after they add 5+ characters, we could have picks and bans like every other character based pro game ...

Jeff doesn't believe in banning heroes so it isn't going to happen without a ton of bitching.
 

Ravishing

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Jeff doesn't believe in banning heroes so it isn't going to happen without a ton of bitching.
Not enough heroes for bans yet.

I don't think 1 ban would be worth it. There wouldn't be much strategy to bans. Need to start with several so you can be strategic and ban out a particular comp or player.

This won't really happen until competitive is more popular imo.
 

gauze

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I think the problem with balancing for competitive/pro scene is that, it is only a small percent. I think it's better to stir up the bottom pool of heroes to see if anything sticks, because at the end of the day.. Atleast in a comp setting, people still want to play the heroes they like, when that hero gets the buff its like Christmas. The meta doesn't always stick, a lot of times people get bent out of shape and blame that you don't pick the meta you lose, but there are also people who will complain the right way in which you ult bad or don't change your pick fast enough.. You lose. I often have to deal with it as a Hanjo main, and it's always praises when I flip over because it's just not worth it.

As far as bans go, it will probably become something in due time. Just small pool. I know tournaments were trying to figure a map ruleset.. Idk if they settled on anything? Can't say I watch much outside of highlights.
 

Kharzette

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I still watch pretty much every major tournament and the map picking is still quite varied. The old monthly melee ban stuff hasn't been used lately. I think contenders did a loser picks rotating between assault, hybrid, escort, and apex seems to just arbitrarily load up the best of 7 with a mix of the 3, alternating which team gets to pick the map, with the last loser picking first attack or defense. There's usually a fixed tie-breaker map like nepal or illios.

I could be wrong about that, but that's what my faulty memory says.
 

gauze

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whats your win rate in comp with hanzo?
It's pretty rough this season, it just started out wrong as ever but i'm still hovering the 50%. Current style of meta is too fast for a hanzo atleast half of the time on defense, and have 5 weeks in Japan.. just getting the swing is taking longer than expected.

I feel the registry issue has gotten worse too. I've seen a post about it here and there and I have noticed it since day one, but it definitely feels progressively worse. You hear the tsk but no hit marker or drop in hp, its fine on somethings but dueling a tracer/genji is no good.

That makes sense as far as map rotations go. I feel when the pool gets bigger we will see more variances in rulesets. That goes for characters too, it's just too critical to allow immediate bans as your pool is very limited..
 
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ex-genj

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IDK if you're playing an "off meta" dps hero and you can't do ~55%+ wins I don't feel too bad about you being asked to change. Especially since this will be the most pharah meta ever in a week or two and hanzo isn't exactly a great pick there.
 

gauze

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I actually don't see Pharah often. It's mostly a mixture of genji tracer Winston dva. It's quite common to watch 2 or 3 plus blast past your team onto you specifically. I've watched people primary target me over mercy like 10ft infront. Generally when I do the -wraxu- and have a pocket healer all is well and I have no problems. Pharahs aren't hard because it's always a tag/bag scenario. If they run reaper, with any of those above its absolute cake.

Im still climbing, all my loses were in my placements something stupid like 3-1-6. I've lost maybe 3 games? But it's so early that one loss is half a win.

I don't really expect sympathy as I play for fun. I'm just glad I haven't ran into many Omg Hanzo gtfo please, it's always been mind if I try dps I main x. On my Dia smurf, people literally just afk.

 
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Kharzette

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Apex got strange. The third place match was really bad. I've seen members of a team have an off day but they just all seemed to be having a bad day.
 

Tenks

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What a worthless article. Like 90% of it is feelings based and the other part is LGE Jake complaining about stuff that most people don't have to worry about because we're not getting matched up with 3 t500 Mercy-only players. Would I prefer a binary win/loss system instead of this skill-based reward system? Yeah. But does it really effect me greatly? No. The SR gains/losses system seems to be the final straw people are grasping at for the ELO hell argument. When the fact is one tricks and the SR gains are not the reason you're stuck in mid plat. It is the fact that you're a mid plat player.
 
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