Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

Rhanyn

Rhanyn

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I feel like EQ was half and half, to me at least, it was more of a sandbox, than a theme park. I may have a fundamental disconnect with what is considered the solid definitions of what constitutes theme park and sand box, but I did way more exploration and general shenanigans that weren't directly tied to questing/hubs/story arcs/etc, in EQ, than I have in any other game since. It gave me a lot of "emergent" game play, without forcing PVP down my throat.

I've come to accept WoW as a great game, and sorely wish I hadn't been prejudiced on its release. I think I would have loved Vanilla and BC era way more than what I got later on, but I played a considerable amount of WotLK, and played the longest most recently during Legion. I still hate the general art palette and stylized graphics, but the game itself has some really great elements to it. I do think it has had way too much of an impact on the genre, but I also understand why. I think WoW originally was a lesson that was learned incorrectly, and that the industry, slowly and painfully, is starting to get the right idea from (or rather doing away with in a manner of speaking). It might take years or a decade or more, but I don't see the MMO space going away anytime soon, I'm really just hoping they have something I can sink my retirement into, in another 30 to 40 years.
 
zzeris

zzeris

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Rhanyn said:
I feel like EQ was half and half, to me at least, it was more of a sandbox, than a theme park. I may have a fundamental disconnect with what is considered the solid definitions of what constitutes theme park and sand box, but I did way more exploration and general shenanigans that weren't directly tied to questing/hubs/story arcs/etc, in EQ, than I have in any other game since. It gave me a lot of "emergent" game play, without forcing PVP down my throat.

I've come to accept WoW as a great game, and sorely wish I hadn't been prejudiced on its release. I think I would have loved Vanilla and BC era way more than what I got later on, but I played a considerable amount of WotLK, and played the longest most recently during Legion. I still hate the general art palette and stylized graphics, but the game itself has some really great elements to it. I do think it has had way too much of an impact on the genre, but I also understand why. I think WoW originally was a lesson that was learned incorrectly, and that the industry, slowly and painfully, is starting to get the right idea from (or rather doing away with in a manner of speaking). It might take years or a decade or more, but I don't see the MMO space going away anytime soon, I'm really just hoping they have something I can sink my retirement into, in another 30 to 40 years.
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EQ had a lot of unintended sandbox which was cool as hell. There was a lot of good in EQ but bad developers hurt MMOs, not WoW. I agree with Utneyan on that front and I'm glad there are new faces on this team. Guys like Joppa and Convo Convo seem to be making a really solid game and adding hopefully cool new aspects to a stagnated industry.
 
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etchazz

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I have no problem with slower combat. In fact, I prefer it to the whack a mole bullshit that most MMO's have become. MMO's were originally about mitigating damage and mana, controlling aggro, and CC. In most modern games, mobs die so quickly and so easily, that you barely have to pay attention to what you're doing. The slower combat is, the more skill you can introduce into the game. Hit points should matter, mana should matter, and aggro should matter. All that goes away if the mobs die in under twenty seconds.
 
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Zaide

Zaide

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EQ had some issues like that, but it wasn't really an issue going from "current end game" to a new expansion. Take Classic for example. You start off at level 1 fighting bats and fire beetles in North Qeynos or Freeport. Fast forward to level 46-50, you're fighting "Sonic" bats and "Lava" beetles in Solb, but it's the same model, still a "vermin" type enemy etc.

At level 50 in Kunark you crush any wildlife pretty easily. The challenging enemies at that range might be Drolvargs in Karnors (A sentient race of Weremen, this makes sense), the Frogloks and Golems in Sebilis (Sentient race and magical construct, this makes sense) and then the half dragon half iksar hybrids a.k.a Sarnak and their Chokidai (Another sentient race and their well trained attack dinosaurs).

Going into Velious at 60, nothing that isn't Dragon/Wurmkin will challenge you. There are higher level animal adversaries, but these are closer to the 35-45 range. I guess maybe the sirens in SG but again they're a sentient race employing magically enthralled minions etc.

In Luclin the only challenging things you face are sentient races, or alien monsters.

In PoP you're fighting the literal armies of the gods.
 
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Ambiturner

Ambiturner

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Zaide said:
EQ had some issues like that, but it wasn't really an issue going from "current end game" to a new expansion. Take Classic for example. You start off at level 1 fighting bats and fire beetles in North Qeynos or Freeport. Fast forward to level 46-50, you're fighting "Sonic" bats and "Lava" beetles in Solb, but it's the same model, still a "vermin" type enemy etc.

At level 50 in Kunark you crush any wildlife pretty easily. The challenging enemies at that range might be Drolvargs in Karnors (A sentient race of Weremen, this makes sense), the Frogloks and Golems in Sebilis (Sentient race and magical construct, this makes sense) and then the half dragon half iksar hybrids a.k.a Sarnak and their Chokidai (Another sentient race and their well trained attack dinosaurs).

Going into Velious at 60, nothing that isn't Dragon/Wurmkin will challenge you. There are higher level animal adversaries, but these are closer to the 35-45 range. I guess maybe the sirens in SG but again they're a sentient race employing magically enthralled minions etc.

In Luclin the only challenging things you face are sentient races, or alien monsters.

In PoP you're fighting the literal armies of the gods.
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The fluffy bunny problem is completely made up in the first place, but even if it wasn't it would still be stupid for the reasons a_skeleton_02 mentioned.
 
goishen

goishen

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Take DAoC. A perfect game, except it was missing one thing. Zones that were absolutely controlled by an opposing faction. Sure, you had three factions to choose from. Sure, they all had counters and striking moves. Sure, the three factions completely synchronized with each other with said counters and strikes. Sure, you had the one zone that everybody PvP'ed in. But that became a zone that was mostly for shits and giggles and the reason that it ultimately failed.


What I think the video is suggesting is something like DAoC, just on a larger scale with quests of go find me ten bear assholes. Have the world be dynamic instead of WoW-like in the sense that you are completely disconnected from the events of the world around you.
 
Dullahan

Dullahan

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DAoC would have definitely been more interesting if you progressed your character in contested content. They had the right idea with Darkness Falls, but for some reason stopped there. This was the main reason why I found EQ pvp so much more fun than DAoC. I actually got to kill people and take their dragons.
 
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Siliconemelons

Siliconemelons

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You guys have issues if you think EQ was NOT an example of well progressed Level / Gear steps from Classic to Kunark to Vel to SOL and POP - POP is the "end" of classic EQ

A casual geared Level 50 stepping into fresh Kunark would indeed find some issue with drachnids and drolvargs etc... walking cacti and animals in like OT were no problem.. Wurms and dragon kin in SF? sure

A casual raid geared 50 again would not have any issue same as above, some would be even less of an issue-

Hardcore Raid geared again, another step up etc. etc.

EQ was really actually well stepped all the way through to OOW/GoD

And "I just killed a dragon, and now this stupid Ice Orc is killing me?!"

you and 50 other people killed the dragon, and if any one of them was with you the ice orc would be expz...

WOW - its , me an 39* other people just destroyed the ancient lair of these bug dudes that have been plauging the entire world forever and ever etc. etc. - oh look a little frog dropped a green armor thats better than this epic armor i got from the giant eyeball of death.
 
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forge

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While I don't care one way or the other, something which wasn't mentioned was that in EQ you kept gear for a long time. Where as in WoW you don't remember anything but legendary items because they get replaced every 10 minutes.
 
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zzeris

zzeris

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While the WoW gear drop replacement for new expansions was ridiculous, it was never as bad as mentioned here. If you actually raided, your stuff lasted until the late 5 mans preparing you for the next round of raids. Little bunny greens didn't ever replace top gear from the previous expansion. Shit tier, yes. Also, while it was ridiculous, I also think farming the same shit for days just to get one antiquated piece of gear from three years ago is stupid as fuck.

Blizzard at least was honest with their gear based game...being about gear instead of having an artificial limit imposed in every aspect of the game. Maybe finish your next content at release instead of charging people for another expansion...24 times. WoW, seven expansion in 14 years. EQ...24 in 19 years. I know which team was adding value and which was trying to gouge customers at every turn.
 
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Valderen

Valderen

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I think the only expansion where you replaced raid gear very quickly in WoW was Burning Crusade....it's where "green is the new purple" came out. They learned from that in the next expansion gear from previous expansion started lasting longer.
 
zzeris

zzeris

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Valderen said:
I think the only expansion where you replaced raid gear very quickly in WoW was Burning Crusade....it's where "green is the new purple" came out. They learned from that in the next expansion gear from previous expansion started lasting longer.
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Good post and I remember that being the big argument but when I look back, it isn't a cut and dry truth. Look at the Steamvault in BC Hydromancer Thespia has similar drops in power to C'Thun. Not nearly as many but similar in strength. Sure, it makes little sense in a story setting but in the game? SV is a level 65 minimum zone and you have minimum reqs to wear the gear at 68. That sure as fuck doesn't sound like little bunny green gear. I remember easily replacing some gear of my alts very early in BC. My raiders, no. It just didn't happen until much higher zones. And as you mention, they fixed the problem afterwards. If only EQ fixed problems quickly...or ever sometimes.
 
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etchazz

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EQ was definitely the king when it came to memorable gear. Shit like the mana stone and the fungi tunic were still highly sought after even 5 or 6 expansions later. I actually loved EQ for this reason. I'm hoping that Pantheon will incorporate some of the ultra rare/over powered gear into their game. And the one thing that I absolutely loathed about WoW was BOP/BOE. There's nothing wrong with allowing players to buy/sell ultra rare items. Helps to build the economy.

As far as that video goes, the guy made a few decent points, but it was lost in really bad analogies and over the top hyperbole. Michael Jordan didn't ruin basketball, nor was he the only personality in the NBA during that time. Dennis Rodman, Shaq, Kobe, Charles Barkley, and many more great players with their own personalities played during the same era. And I would say EQ was more sandbox than it was theme park. You definitely weren't on rails like you were in a game like WoW, where you were literally told where to go next. There were almost a dozen different level appropriate areas for you to exp in during vanilla, and no NPC's told you were to go. You were pretty much on your own on where you wanted to exp, and what you wanted to do when you logged in. Hell, how many of us spent hours just buying and selling shit in the Ro tunnel? That was completely player driven.
 
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Ukerric

Ukerric

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etchazz said:
EQ was definitely the king when it came to memorable broken gear. Shit like the mana stone and the fungi tunic were still highly sought after even 5 or 6 expansions later.
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FTFY. The two reasons you don't remember your WoW gear are that you got a lot of them, but notably that none were so outside of the risk/reward ratio that they'd give you a "whoa" moment.

People remember the Mana Stone for the same reason people now remember the Black Lotus for MtG.
 
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Hekotat

Hekotat

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Me and Convo Convo killing an elite mob circa summer 2018

alwaysunny-gun.gif
 
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