Avengers: Infinity War (2018)

Lithose

Lithose

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Zweischneid said:
Funny enough, IW has a lot of the same issues people criticised about the Last Jedi: subverion of fan expectations, Iron Man armour going full Mary Sue, beloved characters going against their established character, long side-quests that resolve nothing. Heroic sacrifice subverted that resolves nothing. Etc.. But they packaged it btter, I assume.
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Subverting expectations is not an "issue" unless its done poorly. Its the same as any other device used in movies or story telling, if you do it well, its actually a benefit, if you do it lazily or poorly its terrible. Last Jedi's subversion fell flat because it ran counter to what the audience expected in the bigger Universe, in order to subvert what they expected in the film itself--as I said when it came out, if the Last Jedi had been simply the second of three movies it would have been a damn good film, but when you step back and look at ALL the movies in the Universe its dog shit. Marvel's subversion worked not only in the film, but also in the universe--every single one flowed well with what we've come to know throughout the Universe we've seen. A lot of the twists people didn't expect but when we saw them we understood not onlyCOULD it have happened that way but it was REASONABLE for it to happen that way--which was the big difference between TLJ and this. (For example, when Rey masters the force better than any other Jedi with zero training, that might have worked if the audience had never seen any other Jedis come of age, we could assume she was like some mythical hero. Unfortunately, we did see those things in other movies, and subverting this expectation in this way fell completely, and totally flat, because it was something unreasonable compared to everything we know about how Jedi's powers work, and we had ZERO explanation for why they are working differently for Rey.)

Iron Man armor going Mary Sue? Not sure what you mean with that. As for characters going against their established character? Again, not sure what you mean. But it comes down to reasonable and unreasonable. Having the scion of hope, the guy who believed in the good of people so much that he chose to throw down his weapon against the man that killed his adopted parents, his beloved teacher and was actively helping to kill his friends, because of the glimmer of hope he might be redeemed...To have that man all the sudden think of killing an innocent child, his nephew no less, because "he was scared" of the future? Is going against your character at a whole different level, its completely destroying what the character was. But having a character go from say, being selfish, to learning the meaning of Christmas and being selfless? That's just character growth; it still requires going against the old character but its done in a reasonable way with plenty of evidence as to WHY the change happened, something severely lacking in every "subversion" in TLJ (Which was the main problem, none of them made sense, we were told to simply accept them rather than seeing why things were working so differently compared to past movies.)

And that's the difference. Informing your audience so something is unexpected, but also reasonable. A good subversion has the same properties as a really good joke--it tickles the same part of the brain, which is why we enjoy them ...Because you EXPECT one thing, but then get another but the thing you GOT makes even more sense, just not in a way you originally expected (And this is really difficult to do to an engine like the brain which lives and breathes prediction.)

As for the side quest, that just comes from annoyance--a side quest to get something is fine if you've used your time well so that everything in the rest of the scenes make sense and you want more time for X characters or you want to set something up for the future. The issue in TLJ was not the side quest, it was the side quest happening and taking 40 minutes of screen time when Luke, a beloved character, couldn't even be given 30 seconds of screen time to illustrate how his ENTIRE character was now the fundamental OPPOSITE of what he used to be. That's why the Thor's hammer side quest worked, and the TLJ side quest sucked. Because in TLJ everyone felt like a lot of very very important explanations were glossed over to bloat the film with something superfluous, like dumping extra icing on a cake to cover up the fact that you forgot to add sugar to it. Meanwhile, in Thor, the side quest felt like a bonus, everything else was explained well, so the side quest was just...icing on the cake.
 
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Ukerric

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Downhammer said:
I also wonder if the "you should have gone for the head" is a hint at an alternate end after a rewind.
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My guess would be that half of the hints we get in the movie won't pan out. Because it is entertaining (for the Russo) to see how much fans can elaborately construct theories about what's coming from the hints placed.

I mean, I could be wrong about the gauntlet mold on Nidavellir. It could be a red herring, notably because they made it so much in-your-face. But I still think it's one of the plot points for AV4.

The only one we can be 100.0% sure is Capt. Marvel distress call.
 
Khane

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I was thinking more about this movie last night and I realized that, as someone who never read the comics, I really don't get a great sense of Thanos' power level. Like he took on Thor and Loki with his "children" at the beginning and then kicked the shit out of the hulk pretty easily but then as the story progresses he gets more and more of the stones and it's hard to tell just what that's doing to his power level. He has 4 of the stones when he's fighting the guardians + iron man + spiderman + Dr. Strange but he seems to be struggling with them somewhat. Also because of the reality stone it's hard to tell what's actually ever going on.

All of this combined with just the sheer amount of intersecting storylines and Marvel protagonists is really confusing and hard to fully grasp exactly what is possible for Thanos as well as what is possible for the heroes to do against him. Like at the end when Scarlet Witch is destroying Vision's stone AND holding off Thanos at the same time. Why was she struggling so much previously in the movie and why couldn't Thanos stomp the fuck out of her at that point with all the stones he had? Is it that the stones don't necessarily increase your power they just give you new effects? If so doesn't that contradict the explanations we got in the guardians movies about what the stones allow powerful beings to do?

If you look at a movie like Civil War I think that's probably the limit as far as characters go for someone like me who wasn't a comic reader to still be able to understand and appreciate what is happening on screen without having to come to a place like this for further explanation. The story itself wasn't hard to understand in Infinity War and thankfully Thanos is a very compelling villain. The kind that you can agree with and maybe even sympathize with his ideas, you just can't get behind his methods. The type of villain that believes he is a hero, he isn't just pure evil. It's just that the power levels are really hard to understand for a comics layman like me.
 
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Jive Turkey

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Lithose said:
That's why the Thor's hammer side quest worked, and the TLJ side quest sucked. Because in TLJ everyone felt like a lot of very very important explanations were glossed over to bloat the film with something superfluous, like dumping extra icing on a cake to cover up the fact that you forgot to add sugar to it. Meanwhile, in Thor, the side quest felt like a bonus, everything else was explained well, so the side quest was just...icing on the cake.
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Not to mention, the failure of Thor's hammer sidequest is a subversion that is intentionally set up to emphasize the power and threat of Thanos. In any other movie that sidequest would've worked. It was even structured in a way plot-wise that follows the beats of a successful quest. But the rug is pulled out at the very end. It's the directors using the structure of adventure movies in general to reinforce to the audience "no, this one is different and the usual tricks won't work". It's kind of brilliant
 
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Kaige

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Just suspend your disbelief when it comes to anything involving the Infinity Gems. Their abilities and the people who use them are so plot-situational that its not worth concerning yourself over.

I've read the comics, some of the different other series' involved with them, and seen the movies. I'm a fan of all the material, and yet some of it is definitely cringe-worthy. Adam Warlock alone has cheat modes and plot armor even Superman would be jealous of.
 
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Zindan

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Khane said:
I was thinking more about this movie last night and I realized that, as someone who never read the comics, I really don't get a great sense of Thanos' power level. Like he took on Thor and Loki with his "children" at the beginning and then kicked the shit out of the hulk pretty easily but then as the story progresses he gets more and more of the stones and it's hard to tell just what that's doing to his power level. He has 4 of the stones when he's fighting the guardians + iron man + spiderman + Dr. Strange but he seems to be struggling with them somewhat. Also because of the reality stone it's hard to tell what's actually ever going on.

All of this combined with just the sheer amount of intersecting storylines and Marvel protagonists is really confusing and hard to fully grasp exactly what is possible for Thanos as well as what is possible for the heroes to do against him. Like at the end when Scarlet Witch is destroying Vision's stone AND holding off Thanos at the same time. Why was she struggling so much previously in the movie and why couldn't Thanos stomp the fuck out of her at that point with all the stones he had? Is it that the stones don't necessarily increase your power they just give you new effects? If so doesn't that contradict the explanations we got in the guardians movies about what the stones allow powerful beings to do?

If you look at a movie like Civil War I think that's probably the limit as far as characters go for someone like me who wasn't a comic reader to still be able to understand and appreciate what is happening on screen without having to come to a place like this for further explanation. The story itself wasn't hard to understand in Infinity War and thankfully Thanos is a very compelling villain. The kind that you can agree with and maybe even sympathize with his ideas, you just can't get behind his methods. The type of villain that believes he is a hero, he isn't just pure evil. It's just that the power levels are really hard to understand for a comics layman like me.
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I hope you remember that one point in the Thanos vs. IM+DrS+SM+GotG fight where Thanos crushes the surface of a nearby Moon and throws at our heroes. Seemed to me that Thanos never felt threatened by them at all, and is the type of person who won't 100% if they do not need too... he just seemed annoyed more than "oh no! I gotta do something drastic to win!". =)
 
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Lanx

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Lithose said:
Meanwhile, in Thor, the side quest felt like a bonus, everything else was explained well, so the side quest was just...icing on the cake.
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Yea, thor side quest ended up w/ him being totally correct, he needed to make the greatest hammer of all, and it was able to hurt a God, and he had a swell time interacting w/ Rabbit & Tree

vs.

black guy and fatty asian girl ultimately bringing about the doom of 99% of the resistance cuz their evil hacker turned out to be super evil, and no one had a swell time watching those two flub around the screen.
 
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Mahes

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Khane said:
I was thinking more about this movie last night and I realized that, as someone who never read the comics, I really don't get a great sense of Thanos' power level. Like he took on Thor and Loki with his "children" at the beginning and then kicked the shit out of the hulk pretty easily but then as the story progresses he gets more and more of the stones and it's hard to tell just what that's doing to his power level. He has 4 of the stones when he's fighting the guardians + iron man + spiderman + Dr. Strange but he seems to be struggling with them somewhat. Also because of the reality stone it's hard to tell what's actually ever going on.

All of this combined with just the sheer amount of intersecting storylines and Marvel protagonists is really confusing and hard to fully grasp exactly what is possible for Thanos as well as what is possible for the heroes to do against him. Like at the end when Scarlet Witch is destroying Vision's stone AND holding off Thanos at the same time. Why was she struggling so much previously in the movie and why couldn't Thanos stomp the fuck out of her at that point with all the stones he had? Is it that the stones don't necessarily increase your power they just give you new effects? If so doesn't that contradict the explanations we got in the guardians movies about what the stones allow powerful beings to do?

If you look at a movie like Civil War I think that's probably the limit as far as characters go for someone like me who wasn't a comic reader to still be able to understand and appreciate what is happening on screen without having to come to a place like this for further explanation. The story itself wasn't hard to understand in Infinity War and thankfully Thanos is a very compelling villain. The kind that you can agree with and maybe even sympathize with his ideas, you just can't get behind his methods. The type of villain that believes he is a hero, he isn't just pure evil. It's just that the power levels are really hard to understand for a comics layman like me.
Click to expand...

I would view Thano's ability to control the stones something like this.

Thanos's strength is not in his ability to learn or his intelligence. Yes he can learn fast and is certainly intelligent enough, but that is not his strength. His "Super Power" is his ability to harness the stones and not disintegrate as he does it. His strength is his strength.The stones with the glove, enhance and focus that Super Power creating essentially a lesser god. That all being said, it is still "new" for him. Thanos knows how to use the stones but does not fully understand how to control the volume. Its why he has some difficulty dealing with beings who are enhanced by the stones. The Scarlet Witch is a prime example of this. That being said, I believe the scene where he appears to be having trouble dealing with her could have been more for show and to drain her power. If she had confronted him head-on , it would have been an interesting fight. She is extremely powerful. Instead Thanos chose to let her use all her power to break the stone while holding him back. He knew then that he could just rewind time while she was fairly helpless to stop him.

The damage to the gloves shows Thano's inability to control the volume. He snapped his fingers setting off all 6 stones at max volume. Thano's Super Power was what saved him from damage. The gloves do not have that super power despite how they were created.

As odd as this seems, Thanos actually does not relish killing life forms. He wants to accomplish his goal with the least amount of casualties as possible despite the fact that his end goal erases half of all existence. Its the reason why he does not, for example, just turn the volume to 10 and take out planet Earth. The glove does give him the power to eradicate an entire planet. Its what makes him such an interesting villain. Its also what provides a chance for him to be defeated.
 
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Jait

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Rengak said:
If I had to guess, I would say Nebula steals the gauntlet, then gets convinced to rewind time to the point before Thanos snapped his fingers.
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If you had to guess? Lol. That’s the comics and you clearly knew it. Because of course Nebula is the obvious choice.
 
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j00t

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the difference between the avenger's side quest and TLJ's side quest is WHY it happened and HOW it panned out. thor needs a new weapon, one specifically able to hurt thanos while he has all the stones. he gets that weapon, has a heroic moment with possibly sacrificing himself, while also showing that groot isn't ALWAYS a douchebag. and then when the moment he uses the axe against thanos, it actually works. thanos uses the glove to shoot a blast at stormbreaker but it only mildly slows it down before actually embedding it half way in his chest. the sidequest worked. he needed a weapon strong enough to kill thanos and he clearly accomplished that. thanos just overruled it. which is what needed to happen for the story.

TLJ sidequest happened for 2 reasons and neither of them really sat well with the audience. the first one is that poe wasn't told what was happening so he panics and creates some plan to save the rebellion. while i understand the motivation for admiral holda to not share the information with poe (dude just recklessly got his whole crew killed and then got demoted and kicked out of the bridge. he doesn't need to know the plan, he's got no part in that plan). the audience doesn't like this because we are seeing it through poe's point of view and it seems like the admiral is just being petty and/or doens't know what she's doing. from the meta, it's contrived. there's no REAL reason why she wouldn't have put out a broadcast saying something just as simple as "we have a plan, follow us!" but the filming made it look like she was just trying to outrun them with no plan to survive. the other, storytelling reason, is because the writer wanted the audience to see that the republic is just as terrible as the empire. in a vacuum this is a pretty poignant statement on government vs the people and the 1% vs the 99%. however, the problem is this is NOT in a vacuum, this is the star wars universe and there's a certain status quo you have to uphold.

the payoff for tlj sidequest was just flat out "you wasted everyone's time." if they never went to the casino planet, the movie would have ended the same way. even the betrayal by the dude had no REAL purpose. the movie still ended with the fleet running out of gas, the admiral ramming the bad guys, and then a standoff on the planet. it really only served as a different set piece.
 
j00t

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Jait said:
If you had to guess? Lol. That’s the comics and you clearly knew it. Because of course Nebula is the obvious choice.
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i don't actually remember what happened to nebula in the movie... she shows up on titan but i have NO memory of anything that she does there or what happens to her.
 
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Asmadai

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I was trying to see if anyone had come out with a racist article yet hating on the movie for killing off like, every major black character aside from Rhodey and Fury, cause we all know someone's gonna say something but...I instead found this gem I thought i'd share with all of you.

https://www.theroot.com/the-black-persons-guide-to-avengers-infinity-war-1825603657

I can't tell if this is satire or if this is really just a sign of the times.
 
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Lanx

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Asmadai said:
I was trying to see if anyone had come out with a racist article yet hating on the movie for killing off like, every major black character aside from Rhodey and Fury, cause we all know someone's gonna say something but...I instead found this gem I thought i'd share with all of you.

https://www.theroot.com/the-black-persons-guide-to-avengers-infinity-war-1825603657

I can't tell if this is satire or if this is really just a sign of the times.
Click to expand...
someone left early...
 
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Lanx

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Asmadai said:
I was trying to see if anyone had come out with a racist article yet hating on the movie for killing off like, every major black character aside from Rhodey and Fury, cause we all know someone's gonna say something but...I instead found this gem I thought i'd share with all of you.

https://www.theroot.com/the-black-persons-guide-to-avengers-infinity-war-1825603657

I can't tell if this is satire or if this is really just a sign of the times.
Click to expand...
it's satire
I have never seen an Avengers movie, Guardians of the Galaxy or most of the other franchises.
Click to expand...
 
Asmadai

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Oh yeah Fury did go didn't he, I remember him sending out the signal to Captain Marvel but forgot he was fading away.
 
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Khane

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Alright, question for you bros in the know more than me. Did Tony Stark have a friggin flip phone in every Marvel movie he was in so far and I just never noticed? And why the fuck was Nick Fury using a goddamn beeper?

Guy has some of the most advanced tech in the universe and he's using a Motorola Razr?
 
Harshaw

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Most flip phones you see in movies nowadays kinda points it to being a burner phone. Its the phone Cap gave to him at the end of Civil War so that Tony could call Cap if he needed help.

Also Captain Marvel takes place in the 90's, and assuming she leaves after the movie, it's more era specific for it to be a super beeper that Fury uses to get in touch with her.
 
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