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Screamfeeder

The Dirtbag
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Anyone here fly commercial, military or recreational?

I am working toward my Private license at the moment and loving it more and more. It's all been in a 172 so far (20 hours all with an instructor) but my goal would be to eventually train for some of the more unique bush type planes.
 
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a_skeleton_03

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Anyone here fly commercial, military or recreational?

I am working toward my Private license at the moment and loving it more and more. It's all been in a 172 so far (20 hours all with an instructor) but my goal would be to eventually train for some of the more unique bush type planes.
I plan on doing it eventually but haven’t started as of yet.
 

Il_Duce Lightning Lord Rule

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I'm fairly knowledgeable on the subject. What do you want to know?

The trouble with bush planes is that they're generally slow. Sure, they're good at getting in and out of tight spaces, but bad at actually getting to those tight spaces from populated areas in the first place. Assuming you get your license, and get enough hours in to rent that sort plane instead of buy you'll find that bush planes are generally not available for rent (say if you went on a trip to Canada or Alaska on commercial airlines then tried to rent a bush plane). This is because most people don't have the skill to fly in and out of tight spaces and will bend or break planes (and themselves) in the course of pushing boundaries they really shouldn't. As a consequence, most places won't rent out things like Super Cubs or tail-dragger Cessnas because the insurance is out of sight on trying to offer aircraft of that type for rent.

All of that said, there's plenty of cool spots to fly to down in backwoods California, Arizona, and Utah. Look around Lake Powell for some great spots.

If you're looking for probably the best compromise for a bush plane that can also get there within a reasonable time, look at a Cessna 185. They're definitely not cheap, but they perform well for what they are and there's lots of aftermarket options for them including floats and tundra tires, which will see you through most bush conditions. Also try to find one that's had a STOL kit installed and maybe even Vortex Generators to improve the short field performance.

2461784-v40-15.jpg


If you're talking cheaper and slower, look at Piper Super Cubs, (originals go back a long ways, and there are new ones made by a company called CubCrafters), Aviat Husky's, and American Champion Scouts (much more rare, but they're out there. Main difference between these and Citabrias and Decathlons are Scouts have longer gear legs for bush work). Stuff like this goes for anywhere from $50K - $250K for a brand new Husky.

The main advantage to an aircraft like this is short field performance. I've seen skilled SuperCub pilots be able to take off in 200 feet and land in 400 feet (lightly loaded and near sea level). You'll be hard pressed to beat those distances in anything short of a helicopter.

FLY0112_Husky1_Big.jpg


If you're talking money-no-object, look at a turbine Cessna Caravan. It's not so good for short fields, since it's so big, but it's basically a flying SUV. If you can fit it in a Caravan, you can haul it wherever you're going, whether that's quads/dirt bikes, gear, or people. For a good one kitted out like that though, you're talking a couple of million $. You'll need a few more flight hours and certifications and a few more exec producer credits under your belt for that I'm guessing.

Amphibious-Grand-Caravan.jpg
 
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Screamfeeder

The Dirtbag
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I'm fairly knowledgeable on the subject. What do you want to know?
Basically anything from pilots.

My eventual goal is to be able to pack my girl, dog and a future family into a single fixed, and go from somewhere in SoCal to MMH or some hops over to SAF for a getaway. I'd love to someday be skilled and experienced enough to take it into the Pecos wilderness where we have a ton of grazing property and just land in a field and go to our cabin. This is all long term stuff though.
 

ZyyzYzzy

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Can't wait for the tragic headline, "Small Cessna laden with mops and rags crashes into Golden Gate"


If I had more free time and money I'dget a pilot license. Buddy from high school is a instructor that teaches out in some fly over state.
 

Il_Duce Lightning Lord Rule

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Basically anything from pilots.

My eventual goal is to be able to pack my girl, dog and a future family into a single fixed, and go from somewhere in SoCal to MMH or some hops over to SAF for a getaway. I'd love to someday be skilled and experienced enough to take it into the Pecos wilderness where we have a ton of grazing property and just land in a field and go to our cabin. This is all long term stuff though.

Ya, as I suspected. I don't think you would really like having a bush plane. To really get the most out of it, you have to keep yourself VERY proficient. One of the quickest ways to get yourself in trouble is by trying to fly into and out of unimproved runways when you fly less than 100hrs a year. That's not a knock btw, plenty of people just don't have the time to fly much more than that. Do what you like of course, but I would recommend against you getting a bush plane. I think you'll find that you like the IDEA of a bush plane, but the reality would be far different.

It would be like getting a classic Land Rover Defender as a daily driver. It looks cool, and handles those camping trips great, but it has a top speed of 55 mph, rides like a covered wagon, is loud at speed, and unreliable in general.


My recommendation would be to get a 6 place single of some flavor. General specs in this category will be:

~300 horsepower
Room for 6, (but due to weight limits really 4 + gear + fuel)
700+ Nautical Mile range
150KTs+ cruise speed @65% power

High wing or low wing won't really matter, since you're not really going to bother with unimproved strips, and even grass strips that are long enough are no problem anyway. The main thing is speed and range. For reference, in one of the planes I'm about to mention, you can easily get from LAX to SFO in less than 2 hours, and you can get from LAX to SAF in 1 leg with full fuel.

Look at some of these:

Piper Saratoga: I'm biased, but these are great airplanes. Simple, easy to maintain, and if you get a newer one can be quite nicely equipped. These will cruise at 165kts all day (retractable models) and are just overall solid aircraft.

Cessna 206: Good airplanes for hauling stuff, but quite a bit slower than the other aircraft I'll list here. Likely more expensive than Saratogas due to popularity as well.

Beechcraft A36 (and variants): This is going to be very similar performance wise to a Saratoga but it's more upscale, a bit faster, more expensive, and more expensive to maintain. To make an analogy, Pipers are Fords, Cessnas are Chevys, and Beechcrafts are Cadillacs. If you can swing the prices involved, they're very good aircraft and owners typically love them.

Cessna 210: Basically the retractable gear version of the 206. I'd recommend against them though, due to cost and complexity. The engines and landing gear systems in these can be troublesome and avoid the pressurized versions like the plague. The pressure systems are notorious for developing leaks that take $1000's to attempt to troubleshoot and solve.

Cirrus SR20/22: These are good airplanes, with modern materials and tech, good performance specs, and the excellent integrated ballistic parachute system (beware that using that system writes off the airplane). The trouble with them is they don't really have the space you're looking for I'm betting. Maybe they do, check them out for yourself. The downside to the leather interiors and cramming it full of tech is you sacrifice load carrying capacity. There are no free rides in aviation and aerodynamics, merely trade-offs.

Light twins of any type (Senecas, Barons, 310s): Avoid. Twice the complexity, requires a separate rating, twice the fuel burn, and any purported safety gains by having an extra engine are typically offset by the devilish engine-out handling characteristics. I would only recommend renting in this case, and only then for training purposes if you knew you were going to progress up to flying as a profession and needed a multi-engine rating.

Once you rule out twins, the only way to get faster and farther than the stuff I've listed here is to either go smaller, with stuff like Mooney's and Lancair's, or go bigger and turbine. Turbine singles are orders of magnitude more expensive however. If you look at things like the soon-to-be-released Epic, TBM 700/850, and Pilatus PC12's, you'll see that the speeds increase by about 100kts plus, fuel burn increases by a lot, and maintenance costs increase to levels that can bankrupt drug-dealers.


All of this is far in the future for where you're at in your flying career anyway. I would recommend renting until you get at least 250 hours under your belt. After you get your private, try to fly different stuff than a 172 just to check it out. Along the way towards that time, you might look into fractional ownership aircraft in your area (it's like entering into an partnership with others to split costs of ownership) and flying clubs. After you get your private rating, look towards getting your instrument rating. Living in the southwest like you do, an instrument rating might not be a big deal due to the sustained good weather there, but it does really open up where you can go and what you can do.
 
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Screamfeeder

The Dirtbag
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First off, thanks dude. Awesome reply.

Ya, as I suspected. I don't think you would really like having a bush plane. To really get the most out of it, you have to keep yourself VERY proficient. One of the quickest ways to get yourself in trouble is by trying to fly into and out of unimproved runways when you fly less than 100hrs a year. That's not a knock btw, plenty of people just don't have the time to fly much more than that. Do what you like of course, but I would recommend against you getting a bush plane. I think you'll find that you like the IDEA of a bush plane, but the reality would be far different.
You're probably correct. I do like the IDEA of being able to just go land on a mountain top and hike around for a day, but the reality is, I ain't got time for all that. I would love to be able to do 100hrs a year but between all my other stupid exploits and work, it might not be possible. I'd also love to be able to head out to the East Coast and visit family and I know all your other reccomendations are MUCH better suited for that kind of flight.

Piper Saratoga: I'm biased, but these are great airplanes. Simple, easy to maintain, and if you get a newer one can be quite nicely equipped. These will cruise at 165kts all day (retractable models) and are just overall solid aircraft.

One of the other instructors in the flight school I'm at (never flown with him) said almost this exact same thing to me when we were talking about where I would like to end up. The more research I do on it, the more I am tilting toward a Saratoga. He's also a big fan of the Moony M20 and some Cirrus I can't remember.

Once you rule out twins, the only way to get faster and farther than the stuff I've listed here is to either go smaller, with stuff like Mooney's and Lancair's, or go bigger and turbine. Turbine singles are orders of magnitude more expensive however. If you look at things like the soon-to-be-released Epic, TBM 700/850, and Pilatus PC12's, you'll see that the speeds increase by about 100kts plus, fuel burn increases by a lot, and maintenance costs increase to levels that can bankrupt drug-dealers.
No idea where I will land eventually at cost, but I am not super into massive power and the best speeds (I ride cruiser motorcycles, own a Prius & an old Bug). Also, I don't think I would ever want to take it further than single engine training. I figure if I was going to go more complex, I'd be doing it for a living.


All of this is far in the future for where you're at in your flying career anyway. I would recommend renting until you get at least 250 hours under your belt. After you get your private, try to fly different stuff than a 172 just to check it out. Along the way towards that time, you might look into fractional ownership aircraft in your area (it's like entering into an partnership with others to split costs of ownership) and flying clubs. After you get your private rating, look towards getting your instrument rating. Living in the southwest like you do, an instrument rating might not be a big deal due to the sustained good weather there, but it does really open up where you can go and what you can do.
I'm only sitting at 20 hours and still don't feel like I am even close to being comfortable enough with a solo so it is a long way off (I guess some people do their first solo after 5 hours of instruction wtf). I've done all but one of my take offs and quite a few assisted landings but I know I have a lot more to do. Only thing I got down solid and feel confident about is my radio voice and clarity. My instructor said I should be working JFK ATC with how smooth I am on radio.

Instrument rating is something I am certainly looking at. Plenty of serious weather in the Sierras and NM where IFR would be needed.
 

Screamfeeder

The Dirtbag
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I'm a FAA licensed remote pilot. Maybe I can be of some help...
I have no idea. I have a single cheap little drone I got as a present last year. Can't fly the fucking thing worth a damn (it's one of those tiny cheap toy models so I am sure I can lay some of the blame on equipment). I always equated drones more with rotorcraft. I'm not nearly awesome enough to try and learn how to fly helicopters at my age.
 

Bandwagon

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I'm just kidding. I would be zero help.

My little sister has been flying planes since she was a teenager, so I like reminding her that "Technically, I'm a licensed pilot too".
 
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