New World -- An Amazon MMO joint

Cybsled

Golden Baronet of the Realm
12,204
7,081
I have no idea how to make crafting into something that actually demands skill and not just mountains of time investment, but hopefully someone has figured it out or will in the future. Real life craftsmanship requires a skill of some type for example

FFXIV is probably the closest I would say. You basically get crafting abilities and instead of fighting an enemy, you have to try to boost the quality of an item while also being able to complete the item. For easy shit, people make macros, but they have been trying hard to make top tier stuff macro proof and require actually ability knowledge in order to complete an item at high quality.

They also introduced “epic” crafting tools that are extremely tedious to get for lower skilled crafters, but easier to get if you don’t need macros and your base gear doesn’t suck.
 
  • 1Like
Reactions: Daidraco

Duskoy

Trakanon Raider
134
162
4d 13h 55m
I don't see why you can't make group content (5 or 6 people) that is as hard to complete as a 25 or so man raid with it having rare chances to drop top tier content/crafting mats for top tier content
 

Xevy

Vyemm Raider
6,788
2,421
66d 6h 12m
I don't see why you can't make group content (5 or 6 people) that is as hard to complete as a 25 or so man raid with it having rare chances to drop top tier content/crafting mats for top tier content
That's more or less Burning Crusade Heroics with the nether vortex or whatever they dropped at the end. Originally, at least before they got dumbed down. Wildstar had 5 man's that were as hard as raids were and probably 98% of the population couldn't complete them with the necessary requirements (few or 0 deaths, boss mechanics done a certain way, done in a certain time). The mass base of MMO's is casuals who want other good players to carry them through large raids and then they get to attendance their way to earning some of the best items they may or may not have actually earned.
 

Xerge

Trakanon Raider
562
490
34d 23h 24m
I don't see why you can't make group content (5 or 6 people) that is as hard to complete as a 25 or so man raid with it having rare chances to drop top tier content/crafting mats for top tier content

I think the best compromise is having end game small group content provide rewards that increase performance on an end game level. ESO does this to a degree. Monster Helm sets (2piece, shoulder/helm set items) come from dungeon bosses. Right now a base game dungeon monster helm set is parsing slightly higher DPS than some DLC released helms for certain classes, fun loot is fun.
 
  • 1Like
Reactions: Daidraco

Daidraco

Trakanon Raider
3,654
1,700
31d 16h 51m
I don't see why you can't make group content (5 or 6 people) that is as hard to complete as a 25 or so man raid with it having rare chances to drop top tier content/crafting mats for top tier content
What I was getting at was that I dont understand why a raid has to yield a better quality item than other content that can be just as difficult if not more difficult.

The quantity is there in a raid, usually, and that should be the justification for doing it. I know why people disagree with this idea, but I just dont think the examples Ive ever been given (scheduling, leading etc.) ever justify the items being better. Congrats on being able to show up at 7pm every tuesday for the next 4 months over the people that cant or wont? Make the sets more interesting, but similar DPS? Cosmetic rewards? something, but saying "you can stick to a schedule, heres a Normal ilvl helm that is massively more powerful than a ball slamming Mage Tower trial" is just asinine. (exaggerated example)

That's more or less Burning Crusade Heroics with the nether vortex or whatever they dropped at the end. Originally, at least before they got dumbed down. Wildstar had 5 man's that were as hard as raids were and probably 98% of the population couldn't complete them with the necessary requirements (few or 0 deaths, boss mechanics done a certain way, done in a certain time). The mass base of MMO's is casuals who want other good players to carry them through large raids and then they get to attendance their way to earning some of the best items they may or may not have actually earned.
I loved and hated Wild Star for that exact reason. The game required you to learn shit and not suck. But at the same time, if you didnt have a group of friends that were at a similar skill level as you, you could have some serious LFG problems. From the side of sucking, or even the opposite side and not wanting to group with the guys that suck.
 
  • 1Like
Reactions: Derpa

Qhue

Trump's Staff
6,196
3,043
32d 22h 56m
WildStar is a textbook example of how really hard it is to make an MMO in the age of autists. The base gameplay was great and it had plenty of built in humor with the art style and general insanity of the premise but they went full-bore into making the endgame for the folk that would otherwise only ever do an 8+ Mythic Key and everyone just gave up after they hit max level. I had a blast with the game and would have come back to it again and again but it was euthanized as a failure because they completely blew their entire live-service model.
 

Brahma

Obi-Bro Kenobi-X
7,392
8,357
66d 4h 44m
I don't see why you can't make group content (5 or 6 people) that is as hard to complete as a 25 or so man raid with it having rare chances to drop top tier content/crafting mats for top tier content

Tera did this. It worked very well.
 
  • 1Like
Reactions: Flobee

Flobee

Blackwing Lair Raider
1,588
2,075
66d 3m
WildStar is a textbook example of how really hard it is to make an MMO in the age of autists. The base gameplay was great and it had plenty of built in humor with the art style and general insanity of the premise but they went full-bore into making the endgame for the folk that would otherwise only ever do an 8+ Mythic Key and everyone just gave up after they hit max level. I had a blast with the game and would have come back to it again and again but it was euthanized as a failure because they completely blew their entire live-service model.
In my experience the game was nearly un-puggable. I recall having a lot of trouble finding people that wouldn't just chain die in the level 30ish dungeon. The game went all in on DDR gameplay and it wasn't very fun imo.

If mouth breathers can't at least hang the game is probably not going to do well
 

Neranja

<Bronze Donator>
1,112
1,111
I don't see why you can't make group content (5 or 6 people) that is as hard to complete as a 25 or so man raid
Because the current generation of games is made by raid leaders, led on by groups of very vocal autists. EQ raiding was an accident, and WoW Classic was made by EQ raiders, and in turn the current WoW is made by WoW Classic raiders. WildStar was made by Ex-Blizzard that thought they "could do better".

Then on the other hand you have a lot of people not really understanding what the appeal of an MMO really is. Ex-Blizzard that didn't believe in WoW started Guild Wars, which was boiled down to a lobby-based game. Trion Worlds suffered a similar fate: Lars Buttler (who came from Origin/UO) and Jon Van Caneghem founded Trion. The latter had founded New World Computing and made Might and Magic. I think both had no real grasp what to do with this MMO thing, except WoW was printing money and was similar to this "RPG" thing. Rift had a bunch of separate systems jumbled together without overall direction until Scott Hartsman came in.
 

Sludig

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
5,415
3,449
74d 8h 1m
That's more or less Burning Crusade Heroics with the nether vortex or whatever they dropped at the end. Originally, at least before they got dumbed down. Wildstar had 5 man's that were as hard as raids were and probably 98% of the population couldn't complete them with the necessary requirements (few or 0 deaths, boss mechanics done a certain way, done in a certain time). The mass base of MMO's is casuals who want other good players to carry them through large raids and then they get to attendance their way to earning some of the best items they may or may not have actually earned.
This, it's also the base in all game genre. I rage in bigger team fps because you can be epic but can't carry 20 mouth breathers.
 

rhinohelix

<Gold Donor>
1,870
2,724
33d 5h 34m
WildStar is a textbook example of how really hard it is to make an MMO in the age of autists. The base gameplay was great and it had plenty of built in humor with the art style and general insanity of the premise but they went full-bore into making the endgame for the folk that would otherwise only ever do an 8+ Mythic Key and everyone just gave up after they hit max level. I had a blast with the game and would have come back to it again and again but it was euthanized as a failure because they completely blew their entire live-service model.

In my experience the game was nearly un-puggable. I recall having a lot of trouble finding people that wouldn't just chain die in the level 30ish dungeon. The game went all in on DDR gameplay and it wasn't very fun imo.

If mouth breathers can't at least hang the game is probably not going to do well
Because the current generation of games is made by raid leaders, led on by groups of very vocal autists. EQ raiding was an accident, and WoW Classic was made by EQ raiders, and in turn the current WoW is made by WoW Classic raiders. WildStar was made by Ex-Blizzard that thought they "could do better".

Then on the other hand you have a lot of people not really understanding what the appeal of an MMO really is. Ex-Blizzard that didn't believe in WoW started Guild Wars, which was boiled down to a lobby-based game. Trion Worlds suffered a similar fate: Lars Buttler (who came from Origin/UO) and Jon Van Caneghem founded Trion. The latter had founded New World Computing and made Might and Magic. I think both had no real grasp what to do with this MMO thing, except WoW was printing money and was similar to this "RPG" thing. Rift had a bunch of separate systems jumbled together without overall direction until Scott Hartsman came in.
Exactly: It was the pre-twitter/social media effect, where these people are influencers and effectively wanting to play their own game (Raids) that differed from what most people are playing. You also see/saw the same thing in the PvP space, where the UO crowd would come in, Devs would try to balance PvE for PvP, and in the end make no one happy. But if those folks weren't happy, they would leave, the guilds would leave and since 2004, people would go back to WoW, and then games would tank.

I wonder what could have happened if there was any actual competition in the MMO space, rather than these burn-outs and semi/suicide runs like WildStar, KOTOR, Rift, WAR, etc. Lots of those games were good, and there were lots of games I enjoyed, I definitely played most if not all of the MMOs that came out, including all of those, and ESO and LOTRO, etc. I think GW2 may have been and probably still is my favorite post-EQ mmo, seeing how its my only real MMO currently patched up on my PC.

Eh, what thread are we in? Oh, yeah, this looks really good and way different than the last time I saw it. When last I saw it, it was going to have player built towns and be survival? It may been years ago. I will definitely play this at launch if that video and the patchnotes are any indication of where it is headed.
 

Creslin

Molten Core Raider
1,972
766
38d 8h 0m
Hiring world first wow raiders as design leads is why we can't have any decent mmos, they really are super autistic people who probably all stopped playing with friends multiple times to join better guilds and climb the raid ladder. Most players when they realize half their group of friends aren't good enough and can't be carried don't just go find new friends, they quit and play something else with their friends.

Having a hard endgame isn't a requirement for a successful game, it is generally a detriment. Wow classic and eq tlps prove it.
 

Xevy

Vyemm Raider
6,788
2,421
66d 6h 12m
Yeah, raiding and raiding+++ like mythic stuff I think is good. Allowing normies to see and do content is a good idea, then letting the super pro l33t players try to get the same shit but 5-10% better if they want to kill themselves doing it is fine. The problem with like Wildstar was it was all skill gated. Everything. The dungeons were doable as bad people, but you'd never get the requirements for the 20 man flag. The 20 man raid was challenging and you needed 15+ solid players and some fights needed 20 players doing their jobs AT LEAST adequately to not wipe everyone. Then the 40 man. It wasn't beat like 3-4 months in. I think they hadn't even killed the first boss. Death and Taxes was server hopping trying to eat guilds they thought could boost them to that 40 man raid number and be able to compete it. I actually quit right as DnT was eating my guild, because some other MMO came out I believe.

With raids with everyone able to do it you can have the housewife and the 67 year old guy and the 15 year old kid in their first mmo still experience the content and not feel left out and have to guild hop up. The Raid+ idea helps those sweaty no life nerds, which I can be if the game is worth it, push themselves for just that little extra bit of reward. If you ever keep the largest demo in your game locked out of any part you're gonna feel a big hurt and the reddit whines will be awful.

Currently New World has basically nothing in the end game that I've seen. For the last few months as far as I saw this game was an MMO foundation. It has great bones, but needs much much more meat. The fact they pulled it off launch and said they need 9+ more months is the right step. Could this be THE NEXT big MMO? I don't think so. Could it be a successful game if they inject content at a decent interval? Absolutely. It has a lot of decent systems that just need tuning. The thing that will determine it all is who Amazon lends an ear to: the casual PVErs, the UO type PVPers, the Sweaty Raiders, or all three. You can in this day and age basically appease two of the three most likely the PVErs and Sweaty Raiders. UO all-or-nothing grief PVP is very unfriendly but if they segment zone areas to that stuff it can be a decent draw to the more dedicated players/guilds that come from stuff like GW/Albion Online/Last Oasis/Rust/Ark etc etc.

I just hope they give the game time. I honestly don't need it out in March personally, but a nice launch at the beginning of Quarantine summer #2 would be pretty nice for a lot of people.
 
  • 1Solidarity
Reactions: rhinohelix

Neranja

<Bronze Donator>
1,112
1,111
This isnt cancelled yet? :/
This game is cursed to be the first successful title of Amazon Game Studios. One way or the other, just like Star Citizen.

I wonder what could have happened if there was any actual competition in the MMO space, rather than these burn-outs and semi/suicide runs
The biggest problem here is, that MMOs are super expensive to make, and after WoW are high risk with shit ROI. They were seen as money printing machines with the success of WoW, where everyone was scrambling to bottle lightning a second time. This obviously didn't happen, so investors are pumping their money elsewhere.

Yoshi-P made some good points in this interview: MMOs will most likely continue to exist. The improved graphics are a challenge for MMOs, because high end graphics require a lot of work/assets to be built for a big world. Also, for a new generation you'd probably have to target mobile devices, as smartphones are the most used devices.

Money quote: "Executives nowadays, if someone were to attempt to make an MMORPG, they would probably advise to make something like Fortnite instead."

 

Lodi

Trakanon Raider
1,269
991
42d 21h 6m
Yoshi-P made some good points in this interview: MMOs will most likely continue to exist. The improved graphics are a challenge for MMOs, because high end graphics require a lot of work/assets to be built for a big world.
The funny part about this is that I'd just prefer a better ruleset and better mechanics. More unforgiving progression, survival elements, builder elements. You could just go with something low-fi in terms of graphics and sound and just hire a competent artist to make them and i'd be fine. This is partially why I can't stand all these asian MMOs - all glitz and no meat.

I don't hate the WoW formula, I get it. But, after 16 years, the fact that they are still just rehashing the same shit over and over is pretty tiring.

All you have to do is make a world that's fun to watch playout on Twitch and you'll get the necessary reach.
 

Neranja

<Bronze Donator>
1,112
1,111
The funny part about this is that I'd just prefer a better ruleset and better mechanics. More unforgiving progression, survival elements, builder elements.
On paper this is a great idea, however it's really hard to balance. The more horizontal progression you have, the more problems and questions you have to solve: E.g. if you have drop gear (from group/raid content) and crafted gear, which gear is better--and is it better for specific purposes? You can see this in WoW with M+ players and Raiders basically being forced to play the other type of content, and for some perks to be forced to PvP.

Not all types of players enjoy all types of content. Some want to play the dungeon-diving munchkin murderhobo, but don't want to be forced to the crafting/building path.

You could just go with something low-fi in terms of graphics and sound and just hire a competent artist to make them and i'd be fine.
I think what most people miss in the MMO genre: You don't need to have AAA graphics, in fact it limits your potential playerbase. The most important parts here are a good netcode (capable of handling lags without rubberbanding) and good animations. What players most despise is if they don't feel "in control" of their character.

If you have those down you can basically get away with a better version of stick figures, if your game style calls for it.
 
  • 1Like
Reactions: Flobee

Tarrant

<Prior Amod>
13,673
5,133
33d 4h 1m
I believe today is a wipe of characters and they are putting in a new build will be put in. Rumors are another weapon set as well.

I really hope they allow the same housing system they have in towns to be outside towns as well and you can create homesteads and have farming as a profession. For me, it would be the icing on the cake and it would fit in perfectly with how they have their systems and housing working as well as professions laid out now. Animal husbandry could be feasible too, but I would be happy with just farming.
 
Last edited:

Bobbybick

Trakanon Raider
415
604
21d 11h 5m
Hoping to try out the new 2handers next chance I can play, really didn't care for the warhammer asthetic or moveset.