Politics Thread

Tuco

I got Tuco'd!
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Your problem has always been the complete inability to see any kind of middle ground on Crusader history. Because some accounts try to portray them as Muslim killers, you immediately tack as far to the opposite side as possible and try to rewrite history to represent them as some morally pure superheroes with fighting superpowers that were the most virtuous people ever existed who could outfight anyone. I mean its downright cartoonish.




I'm familiar with quite more than the Jerusalem siege, in fact in first Crusade alone:
SIege of Maara which was a massacre and which also reported instances of cannibalism by Crusaders
Siege of Antioch where most of inhabitants were massacred
And of course the Siege of Jerusalem where Crusaders masscared muslims and jews who actually fought together in some instances to defend against Crusaders
There were also the Rhineland masscares which preceded the 1st crusade where Crusaders massacred Jews.
Basically, it was more likely for a massacre to happen after every single major engagement or siege in every crusade, than not.

Its almost certain that there were also many unreported massacres that were commonplace for that time that simply didnt merit writing it down.

Thats just the First Crusade one, we could go through the remaining 8 and all the ancillary ones but I dont have all day



1st crusade - relatively successful
2nd crusade - they attempt 1 siege, fail, whole crusade collapses
3rd crusade - some coastal successes reversing Saladin's gains but fails to recapture Jerusalem
4th crusade - unable to afford the passage to the Holy Land, they dont even make it anywhere Jerusalem. Instead they sack a Christian city (Constantinople) thus further weakining their own position in the Hooly Land. Complete and utter failure is too generous of a description.
Children's crusade - very successful. just kidding, total fucking fail.
5th crusade - The Egyptian Vacation. Starts off somewhat promising, quickly turns into a disaster. Fail again.
6th crusade - pretty successful, no actual fighting, just a lot of talking
7th cusade - complete fail, crusaders lose jerusalem to muslims for good.
8th crusade - they attempt to siege 1 city, ranks get devastated by disease, they abandon the siege, forced to conclude a treaty and go home. in case you're keeping score at home, this one's a fail.
9th crusade - the last dying gasp of the crusader movement. also fails.

this doesnt even include all the other smaller crusades which were much less funded or organized, and turned into non stop failures. Failure of leadership, and just general failure all around.




"Crusaders won the majority of battles they began".
LMAO, what an interesting qualification. Thats the kind of sneaky shit a SJW academic would write. You sneaky little fucker.

Im sure its easier to win battles on your own terms, rather than on someone else's terms but alas thats not how war works.

"Crusaders were able to defeat and take territory from a significantly wealthier, larger empire for centuries while fighting among themselves."
No they havent. The whole crusader movement didnt even last two centuries. There is no "centuries" when discussing the crusader era meaningfully. And most of that 180 years they were getting their shit pushed in. If they werent, they wouldnt need to start at least 9 major Crusades.

By the way, the fact that you admit that they were largely fighting amongst themselves just goes back to my earlier point about their leadership sucking. Never ending squabbles between kings, nobles and popes crippled and doomed the entire Crusader era.



This is such revisionist trash. You cant even give credit to the Muslims or their generals like Saladin who often outsmarted and outfought Crusaders on the battlefield like they did at Hattin, or Siege of Damascus or in Egypt with hit-n-run tactics. Nooooo, it was the other Christians that held the Crusaders back!!! Not the fact that Muslims were fighting in their own terrain, had shorter supply lines, had decent generals and the fact that this was literally their backyard.
 

Aldarion

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FML, Aryasar is still doing the "random arguments about history trivia" bit with his current character? I thought that just part of his previous "hi fellow conservatives" character.

Maybe we could get an update with each new persona, like the old EQ patch notes?
 

zzeris

Vermin Supreme
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My Grandpa spent WWII strapped to a B17 carrying out bombing runs over Germany. Thankfully he didn't live long enough to see his country given away to Somali retards and gender non-conforming faggots. But if I have to put it all on the line to take it back then that's the least I can do for all those fishing trips he took me on as a young boy. Oh and also for the 70 years of prosperity that his generation assured for all of us that was then pissed away by fucking Boomers.
Brother, I'd gladly be strapped right beside you if they start the bombing runs again. NoVa sounds like the perfect first run.

"Sergeant! I'm here for the next run!"
"But you've only slept four hours, old man!"
"Washington isn't a smoking crater yet sir. I still got work to do!"
 

zzeris

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I like the History Buff version of Brosar. His defense of those worthless WW2 Russians is still one of my favorite timelines for this community. He gives as good as he gets usually in those talks. I had to admit that the Russians weren't a complete drain for the American behemoth and that the generals Stalin couldn't murder quickly enough turned out to be good at their job. Oh...and the T-34 was an ok tank....
 

fanaskin

Well known Agitator
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Hillarites are looking to suppress jim jordan for being outspoken attacker of their BS, complete hitjob through hearsay testimonials based on mindreading

 
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fanaskin

Well known Agitator
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1st crusade - relatively successful
2nd crusade - they attempt 1 siege, fail, whole crusade collapses
3rd crusade - some coastal successes reversing Saladin's gains but fails to recapture Jerusalem
4th crusade - unable to afford the passage to the Holy Land, they dont even make it anywhere Jerusalem. Instead they sack a Christian city (Constantinople) thus further weakining their own position in the Hooly Land. Complete and utter failure is too generous of a description.
Children's crusade - very successful. just kidding, total fucking fail.
5th crusade - The Egyptian Vacation. Starts off somewhat promising, quickly turns into a disaster. Fail again.
6th crusade - pretty successful, no actual fighting, just a lot of talking
7th cusade - complete fail, crusaders lose jerusalem to muslims for good.
8th crusade - they attempt to siege 1 city, ranks get devastated by disease, they abandon the siege, forced to conclude a treaty and go home. in case you're keeping score at home, this one's a fail.
9th crusade - the last dying gasp of the crusader movement. also fails.
this isn't really true, there was like 1,000 crusades all over the place, the most successful being the reconquista of spain and Portugal
 

Comrade Araysar

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Nah, i dont have the patience anymore to trade essays.

Its amusing though to see people try to go back nowadays to revise Crusader history and attribute the negative perception to some modern SJW slander. But if you go back 70-100 years ago before the SJW era, you'll find historians in 1940s and 1950s coming to the same conclusions. Crusaders were a bunch of religious fanatics who had no problems massacring jews, muslims and even some Christians - this is documented extremely well and its not even up for dispute. They had few military successes, but for the most part failed in their objectives to conquer Jerusalem and lost more battles than they won - this is also documented extremely well but apologists will try to qualify their battles with stuff like "Battles that they started". Their leadership was mostly trash, so was their organization - not much room for debate here unless you want to quibble over the definiton of "mostly", most of their generals and leaders were cocky vainglorious men who ended up failing miserably. And the legacy of events like Children's Crudade, Siege of Jerusalem, Sack of Constantinople just illustrates what a sorry affair this whole Crusader era was in general.

The final legacy of the Crusader era is complete and utter failure to obtain their objectives over the course of ~180 years, unless you want to tack on the Reconquista in Spain another 200 years later
 

Comrade Araysar

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this isn't really true, there was like 1,000 crusades all over the place, the most successful being the reconquista of spain and Portugal
No, its very true. I covered the main crusades because I dont want to spend time writing a comment for all of them. But in that same post I also noted:

Thats just the First Crusade one, we could go through the remaining 8 and all the ancillary ones but I dont have all day
 
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popsicledeath

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Crusader forces regularly butchered muslims, women and children.

But it's sure it's their "mercy" that held them back. Not 200 years of war fatigue, getting your ass kicked, incompetent leadership and the impracticality of trying to hold on to a handful of land which was logistically so far away
Yes, in war everyone butchers everyone, unfortunately. That's what war is. When one side is strong enough to return the brutalization and not just be genocided or enslaved.

Please let me clarify my point since it didn't seem to be clear. I thought when I mentioned the same ideological movement has been attacking Western Civilization for a thousand years because nobody followed through and finished this war, I wasn't implying the literal same crusaders be the ones to do it at various points over the course of centuries. That would make very old and ineffective in combat.

From the West's perspective, the middle East is a long series of unrelated conflicts that by golly seem to keep targeting us. It's the darndest thing. Guess we better look at how this might be our fault! Not realizing from the Islamic perspective it's the same war.

They never stopped, and never will the rate we're going. Because while Christian religions went through reformations and civilizing changes to their society, Muslims never have and are still supporting and advocating for Islam. Christians reformed away from their notions that God through kings directly govern people and must directly enact God's will, and God's will changed thanks to reforms. So now we have Christian nations that in some cases still technically have their monarch serving under God that open their arms and borders to an ideology still very much at war with them.

Look at the situation now. We fought of the worst of Islam that went too far, again, and are leaving knowing there will be a new worst eventually. And the cycles get more compressed. So we'll be over there again. We talk about it in the forums, why aren't we glassing the place? Why aren't we decimating the entire region (and it probably would only be 10% deaths to force reform)? Why aren't we ever finishing any of these conflicts we seem to treat as unrelated?

But, like golly guys nobody wants to see another crusades because haven't we seen enough holy wars?

We are IN a holy war. We are the targets of a religious mandate for extermination of our people, culture, and nations.

But again, we don't have the stomach for this kind of thing because Christianity reformed and allowed Western Civilization to, well, civilize, but meanwhile the ideology that didn't ever reform wants us dead or converted to their barbarism.

But don't say Crusades, guys, too politically incorrect! And let's not think about the root ideology of the war we've never gotten to stop fighting because nobody wants more holy wars and if we just think about it differently it'll stop happening....

So, yeah, totally agree and great point the Crusaders had some logistics issues at the time that undermined their abilities to finish out the crusades. Please also understand the thousand years and finishing a war that still seems ongoing wasn't implying that we should expect an undead army to have done the job for us at various points over the centuries.

And yeah, the Crusades weren't our best chance to finish this war for the reasons you cite, but it was perhaps our most honest understanding about what was actually occurring and the measures required stop it.
 
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Comrade Araysar

Russian Turdgod
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Yes, in war everyone butchers everyone, unfortunately. That's what war is. When one side is strong enough to return the brutalization and not just be genocided or enslaved.

Please let me clarify my point since it didn't seem to be clear. I thought when I mentioned the same ideological movement has been attacking Western Civilization for a thousand years because nobody followed through and finished this war, I wasn't implying the literal same crusaders be the ones to do it at various points over the course of centuries. That would make very old and ineffective in combat.

From the West's perspective, the middle East is a long series of unrelated conflicts that by golly seem to keep targeting us. It's the darndest thing. Guess we better look at how this might be our fault! Not realizing from the Islamic perspective it's the same war.

They never stopped, and never will the rate we're going. Because while Christian religions went through reformations and civilizing changes to their society, Muslims never have and are still supporting and advocating for Islam. Christians reformed away from their notions that God through kings directly govern people and must directly enact God's will, and God's will changed thanks to reforms. So now we have Christian nations that in some cases still technically have their monarch serving under God that open their arms and borders to an ideology still very much at war with them.

Look at the situation now. We fought of the worst of Islam that went too far, again, and are leaving knowing there will be a new worst eventually. And the cycles get more compressed. So we'll be over there again. We talk about it in the forums, why aren't we glassing the place? Why aren't we decimating the entire region (and it probably would only be 10% deaths to force reform)? Why aren't we ever finishing any of these conflicts we seem to treat as unrelated?

But, like golly guys nobody wants to see another crusades because haven't we seen enough holy wars?

We are IN a holy war. We are the targets of a religious mandate for extermination of our people, culture, and nations.

But again, we don't have the stomach for this kind of thing because Christianity reformed and allowed Western Civilization to, well, civilize, but meanwhile the ideology that didn't ever reform wants us dead or converted to their barbarism.

But don't say Crusades, guys, too politically incorrect! And let's not think about the root ideology of the war we've never gotten to stop fighting because nobody wants more holy wars and if we just think about it differently it'll stop happening....

So, yeah, totally agree and great point the Crusaders had some logistics issues at the time that undermined their abilities to finish out the crusades. Please also understand the thousand years and finishing a war that still seems ongoing wasn't implying that we should expect an undead army to have done the job for us at various points over the centuries.

And yeah, the Crusades weren't our best chance to finish this war for the reasons you cite, but it was perhaps our most honest understanding about what was actually occurring and the measures required stop it.
Glassing several thousand square miles of land to exterminate an entire religion in 21st century is just edgy fanfiction that 12 year olds write on the internet. Yeah, islam sucks and its a cultural cancer. But if your solution is just to kill them all then you're even dumber than they are.
 
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wormie

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Glassing several thousand square miles of land to exterminate an entire religion in 21st century is just edgy fanfiction that 12 year olds write on the internet. Yeah, islam sucks and its a cultural cancer. But if your solution is just to kill them all then you're even dumber than they are.
Kill them all is the Muslims solution to everyone else so wanting to nuke all of them isn't dumber than they are. Maybe equally dumb at worst. Sounds worth it to me.
 
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