What would you like to see in a board game?

Genjiro · Mar 8, 2021

I've been developing my own legacy style fantasy board game for about 6 months now (mostly working out the main story and worldbuilding) and would be interested in feedback. What does the genre lack that you would like to see? Or even see more of something that is seldom found in most games?

I personally would like to see the world itself: its resources, factions, political alliances etc play more of a role in the game to feel more epic. Where players must fight for control of an area but then are rewarded with its resources for more gold, gems, minerals, ores etc to complement a crafting/building system. I also feel classes and gameplay in fantasy settings for the most part are stale and you might as well lump races in with that too. How many more elf, dwarf, goblin, orc, fighter, thief, mage etc can we see before we want to throw up? SO i would like to create some potentially interesting classes, maybe even borrowing from mmorpgs or pen and paper games for inspiration. The Vanguard blood mage for example would be a cool class to put in a board game.

Part of me would like to put a ccg aspect in as well, but Im not sure financially how viable it would be making the game. Its one of those things that has always seemed to flop from other designers but on its face but would be amazing if implemented well. Anyways, I would love to hear some ideas. Maybe use this thread as a brainstorming catch all if there are any other hobbyist/designers out there to bounce ideas off of each other.

Hateyou · Mar 8, 2021

Unique classes always help. I think that’s one area Gloomhaven shines. Bloodmage seems like it wouldn’t be too difficult to implement. Hit mob for X + Heal character for Y. Adding regeneration symbiotes to people, etc. I always liked the unique classes in MMOs. Bloodmage and Disciple from VG. The Ninja tank in FFXI (Even though that was unintentional), and the leather rogue tank from Rift. They all did part of the holy trinity, tank/heal but they did it through irregular means. Completely evading or neutralizing the next hit. Doing damage to heal, etc.

I think an area resource control + a town building mechanic would be cool. We like that aspect of kingdom death. The resources all come from hunting, but the town portion is fun. Figuring out how best to spend your resources. Deciding which armor set you want to build so planning your hunts accordingly.

Races..eh whatever. I don’t really care what they are. There’s always some race that’s small, some more intelligent, some brutish. I’m fine with games that don’t even mention race like kingdom death, and I’m fine with games that make up their own like gloomhaven or too many bones, and I’m fine with copy paste traditional like hero quest. As long as the game mechanics are fun, do whatever.

Seananigans · Mar 8, 2021

I think you're trying to build a Gloomhaven type game? Tactical fantasy RPG battles? But the first thing that came to my mind that hasn't really been done that I'm aware is a soft-legacy system for games that are more euro-style. Something akin to Dark Souls world tendency... like things you do in one game will affect the status of the "world" for the next game(s). And Soft Legacy in the sense that you don't need to destroy or mark-up anything, the game comes with the supplies to shift the world in various ways along a spectrum.

Dunno, I don't think it's been done and I could see that being interesting. I'm in the midst of a Risk Legacy "campaign" and while the permanent changes are cool and I love them, FFA competitive games like this would be pretty neat if the game wasn't always the same each time you sit down, and the shifts were caused by actions in prior games.

Genjiro · Mar 8, 2021

Seananigans said:
I think you're trying to build a Gloomhaven type game? Tactical fantasy RPG battles? But the first thing that came to my mind that hasn't really been done that I'm aware is a soft-legacy system for games that are more euro-style. Something akin to Dark Souls world tendency... like things you do in one game will affect the status of the "world" for the next game(s). And Soft Legacy in the sense that you don't need to destroy or mark-up anything, the game comes with the supplies to shift the world in various ways along a spectrum.

Dunno, I don't think it's been done and I could see that being interesting. I'm in the midst of a Risk Legacy "campaign" and while the permanent changes are cool and I love them, FFA competitive games like this would be pretty neat if the game wasn't always the same each time you sit down, and the shifts were caused by actions in prior games.

Yes, something similar to a Gloomhaven type game. But with more of the tactical and with a lot more of the mmorpg elements.

After playing with a couple friends we all kind of critiqued that the mechanics in games like this are just, meh, insanely simple and often the AI is just flat out stupid. Granted, our experience is just with GH, Descent and a couple others. Like in GH where monsters are healing when there is no healing needing to be done and lose an entire turn. If a 14+ age rating can comprehend MtG and all its distinct idiosyncrasies (which are a thousand times more complex) there is a huge amount of room for improvement. Like bosses and encounters that have phase triggers just like a video game. Phase 1 = 100% hit points, Phase 2 = 50%, Phase 3 = 25% etc. Adding more directional attacks and obstacles/cover/terrain etc could add a lot as well as making the encounters actually difficult and something you might have to try again with different gear, class comps, and/or ability setups. I imagine there are some out there which incorporate this in some way which I haven't played, but this is just one example.

I mean Gloomhaven is a great game and people love it but its also pretty terrible in a bunch of ways that I think those of us from this community easily pinpoint and could fix/improve. Class balance is awful and evident with classes like bards/quartermaster -- its playing 2 different games with/without those classes. The story in that game is mostly nonexistent, the items are overall very meh and uninspiring to acquire, but the unique mechanics with the classes carry it through and its been backed by bazillions of dollars so I think it's obviously a good starting point to pinpoint what it did right and go from there.

Sterling · Mar 8, 2021

Not super specific, but you need to be careful with pacing/bloat and making sure things work mostly intuitively. Do X and Y happens Z amount of the time. People need to be able to understand and have things make sense.

Genjiro · Mar 8, 2021

Yea I've read a ton of board game designer articles and watched god knows how many videos over the past year and there seems to be consensus about how important good playtesting groups are that test a *lot* and ofc being open to feedback.

Hateyou · Mar 8, 2021

Genjiro said:
Yea I've read a ton of board game designer articles and watched god knows how many videos over the past year and there seems to be consensus about how important good playtesting groups are that test a *lot* and ofc being open to feedback.

Tons of quality play testing is so key. Usually after one or two play through a you can tell if a game had good play testing or not. You should very rarely or ever run into “what do we do in this situation” shit. Games shouldn’t be lopsided very often.

It’s really one thing I will emphasize on the games I recommend the most. Aeon’s End and Dice Throne blow me away in how balanced the games are. You can tell those games had a massive amount of play testing with people who knew wtf they were doing. Another one I think had tight play testing is Too Many Bones.

As opposed to another game I have (and still like despite a lot of problems) is Diceborn Heroes. Almost every mission you run into “idk what to do here”. Even basic shit you run into in every single session has no mention in the rule book. It’s absurd how poorly he did play testing it and laying out the rules. Another example of poor play testing was Dark Souls. Although we knew exactly what to do, the rules were clear...the sessions would take 3-4 hours...when the box said 60-90 minutes. The sessions were also not fun. Looking at the games BGG score it’s pretty common consensus they completely failed play testing it accurately. That game had more player made house rules to fix it than any I’ve seen before.

My dad plays with some guys that do play testing as a side job or hobby or something. He said every session has a new stack of games and they get into them and have notes and mechanics and suggestions ready for the companies after a couple play throughs. They’ve played so much shit they see the flaws and what works almost immediately. Dark Souls was one I saw all kinds of problems with it in my first play through, it was ridiculous to me.

Njals · Mar 8, 2021

Organization, it sucks grabbing a game and having to spend forever getting the stuff out of the box figured out and organized to play e.g. Gloomhaven without a 3rd party or home brew solution. Dice Throne Season 2 and Season 1 rerolled are the golden standard for pick up and play. Too Many Bones is another really well done one but more complicated than Dice Throne. Don't get me wrong there is a zen to popping out the tokens on a new game and setting up a dungeon but this is a comment on the out of box organization to store the tokens and map pieces.

Sterling · Mar 8, 2021

spending an hour setting up axis and allies was fun though!

Hateyou · Mar 9, 2021

Njals said:
Organization, it sucks grabbing a game and having to spend forever getting the stuff out of the box figured out and organized to play e.g. Gloomhaven without a 3rd party or home brew solution. Dice Throne Season 2 and Season 1 rerolled are the golden standard for pick up and play. Too Many Bones is another really well done one but more complicated than Dice Throne. Don't get me wrong there is a zen to popping out the tokens on a new game and setting up a dungeon but this is a comment on the out of box organization to store the tokens and map pieces.

This is very true. I thought about stating it earlier but since he’s still in design phase I figured I’d leave it out.

Just try not to do a “take these 15 cards out of this deck, remove these token from the game for now, don’t use these dice until later” BS. If you want shit separate then have them in a different section of the box, kind of like gloomhaven did with their characters.

A small amount of that isn’t a big deal, like Too Many Bones organizing your play deck. But when you have a ton of that going on and it takes an hour to set up, it can make the difference between playing it that night or not. Kingdom Death is an example of one that takes forever. I actually leave it set up on the under layer of my gaming table because I got sick of tearing it down and setting it up. The Edge: Dawnfall is a good example of a game with a ton of components that takes 5 minutes to set up, it’s quite surprising. And like he said...Dice Throne is the gold standard for the industry. You have 16 characters to choose from all with their own player mat, deck, tokens, life tracker and dice and you are setup and ready to go in a couple minutes from opening the box. You open your character tray, shuffle, start.

Warr · Mar 9, 2021

What other people have said. Plus I'll add a couple things that make tend to pull the trigger on a game:
- Theme: Is the theme good or original? Some games I'll pick up just because "I don't have an Alien-themed game yet" or some others I will always pick up (Viking games to play with my brother). So the theme matters.
- Production values: Doesn't necessarily have to be a metric ton of prepainted or ink-washed miniatures but just overall quality of all the components. Cardboard tiles and standees tend to turn me off, meeples and tokens are average, and metal coins and tokens that resemble the resource tend to get

Just my 2c though. I've found through conversations with friends (with or without interest in KS games) and threads on BGG that there is a vast array of opinions out there.

Guurn · Mar 9, 2021

Set up and tear down time are pretty crazy on most dungeon crawls. Minimizing that would set you apart. I'd prefer high quality standees over miniatures just because of storage space.

Gloomhaven reminded everyone that gameplay matters most and their combat system needs work in some areas but the card play is great. I'd work on that above all else. You could look to Cosmic Encounter for inspiration on races.

Hateyou · Mar 10, 2021

Warr said:
What other people have said. Plus I'll add a couple things that make tend to pull the trigger on a game:
- Theme: Is the theme good or original? Some games I'll pick up just because "I don't have an Alien-themed game yet" or some others I will always pick up (Viking games to play with my brother). So the theme matters.
- Production values: Doesn't necessarily have to be a metric ton of prepainted or ink-washed miniatures but just overall quality of all the components. Cardboard tiles and standees tend to turn me off, meeples and tokens are average, and metal coins and tokens that resemble the resource tend to get

Just my 2c though. I've found through conversations with friends (with or without interest in KS games) and threads on BGG that there is a vast array of opinions out there.

I really like it when companies give alternatives. You can have standees for $X or minis for $XX or painted minis for $XXX. I know this drives production cost up but the options is great IMO, it allows people who don’t have a lot of cash to get in on something they couldn’t or allows you to still get in on a game you’re unsure about at a lower price.

I’d really like companies to start collaborating with Skinny minis to offer those as alternatives. They design the art, farm out the production to them. I don’t really like standees much but they’re functional enough they’re fine. If they were skinny minis I’d be all about that. I go miniature because they look so much better than a standee when painted...but painting them all is a monumental task. I’m the same way about tokens. I really want the nice acrylic tokens for dice throne, the cardboard cutout tokens feel so janky.

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Genjiro · Mar 10, 2021

Thanks for some good feedback! This will be the perfect place to bounce stuff off you guys and possibly even do some early testing if folks would be interested.

The logistics are kind of daunting, financially and otherwise, but I am fortunate in that I am an artist so I can do a good amount of the $$$ work on my own which will take longer but will save some money for the art I really want to be S tier. Granted my background is more on the fine arts/realism end but I think I can refine my style to at least make the art look decent for some of the bulk items. I know I'll need additional art assets at some point because the sheer volume will be a chore but that's one thing that is a dealbreaker for me, as the art has to be fantastic and even if it costs more I want a beautiful game that takes players into the world and characters. There are a few MTG artists I am going to be attempting to reach to do all the character class art/box art.

My initial idea is that I would love a dungeon crawler that used a deckbuilding system like a MtG kind of game using a generic pool of cards usable by all and then cards class specific as well (think Marvel Legendary) that you will improve your deck with and replace/upgrade. Add to that a robust inventory like you have in MMORPGs which could create some interesting card interactions.

For instance just off the top of my head for those of you who are MtG players: Staff of the Tempest: Legendary Artifact: (class specific) Any time you play a card with Lightning in the name it deals double damage. (ie Chain Lightning, Ball Lightning, Lightning Bolt etc) I think there could be some really interesting paths to create items and that it wouldn't be too hard to turn a MtG style deck into something that could be played on a board as a dungeon crawler. Adding range to spells basically would not be that hard and is another avenue to create meaningful items/abilities for additional range and movement. Add in the legacy component and I think it would be a blast as you could challenge players to customize their decks not only to generically improve but also fine tuning it for specific encounters (think of sideboard cards). The main starting point for me is to eliminate mana screw and probably either have a base amount of mana per turn (modified by level/items) or possibly something like Hearthstone. Wouldn't it be awesome to spend 3 hours to get to the final dungeon boss and get mana screwed?!

Seananigans · Mar 10, 2021

Genjiro said:
Thanks for some good feedback! This will be the perfect place to bounce stuff off you guys and possibly even do some early testing if folks would be interested.

The logistics are kind of daunting, financially and otherwise, but I am fortunate in that I am an artist so I can do a good amount of the $$$ work on my own which will take longer but will save some money for the art I really want to be S tier. Granted my background is more on the fine arts/realism end but I think I can refine my style to at least make the art look decent for some of the bulk items. I know I'll need additional art assets at some point because the sheer volume will be a chore but that's one thing that is a dealbreaker for me, as the art has to be fantastic and even if it costs more I want a beautiful game that takes players into the world and characters. There are a few MTG artists I am going to be attempting to reach to do all the character class art/box art.

My initial idea is that I would love a dungeon crawler that used a deckbuilding system like a MtG kind of game using a generic pool of cards usable by all and then cards class specific as well (think Marvel Legendary) that you will improve your deck with and replace/upgrade. Add to that a robust inventory like you have in MMORPGs which could create some interesting card interactions.

For instance just off the top of my head for those of you who are MtG players: Staff of the Tempest: Legendary Artifact: (class specific) Any time you play a card with Lightning in the name it deals double damage. (ie Chain Lightning, Ball Lightning, Lightning Bolt etc) I think there could be some really interesting paths to create items and that it wouldn't be too hard to turn a MtG style deck into something that could be played on a board as a dungeon crawler. Adding range to spells basically would not be that hard and is another avenue to create meaningful items/abilities for additional range and movement. Add in the legacy component and I think it would be a blast as you could challenge players to customize their decks not only to generically improve but also fine tuning it for specific encounters (think of sideboard cards). The main starting point for me is to eliminate mana screw and probably either have a base amount of mana per turn (modified by level/items) or possibly something like Hearthstone. Wouldn't it be awesome to spend 3 hours to get to the final dungeon boss and get mana screwed?!

I understand you're using MtG as an inspiration for some of the mechanics, so I'm going to offer a suggestion as I'm inferring from this post that you're already well down that line of thinking (mana screw).

Stay away from double-tiered resource systems for a tactical board game. MtG is a double-tiered system. You create permanent things that then themselves create temporary resources (play up to one land a turn, utilize lands/other things to create temporary mana). You are not given any resource that you do not have to explicitly create for yourself. This is what creates the "mana screw" possibility and that first tier is completely unnecessary for the type of game you're looking at creating.

Other suggestions for resource:

Hearthstone style - Fixed pool per turn that ramps up during play (rarely able to modify this pool). Exists largely outside the deck mechanic. This system will prove to be cumbersome to balance if your game will have battles that last any appreciable number of turns/rounds. Works, but wouldn't recommend.
Dice Throne style - Pool of resource with fixed starting value, fixed increase per turn, and variable optional deck-based increases. Exists outside deck mechanic but deck can modify some. This system would probably work fine.
Gloomhaven style - Fixed and unmodifiable action allotment per turn (one top action, one bottom action). Exists completely outside the deck mechanic. This system would probably be the easiest one to work with, and some variation of it would be my personal recommendation.

Tactical-battle board games are already typically loaded with layers and complexity, I wouldn't recommend making your resource system so variable that the concept of "mana screw" is even relevant. I like the idea of combining deck building with tactical board game, but that in itself is already a lot going on. Keep resource simple and un-fuckup-able.

Genjiro · Mar 10, 2021

Yea, GH kind of rolls all the players resources into your starting cards as stamina which runs out when you rest or need to burn them (which I am not a huge fan of). I'm thinking of more of a HS style resource system with a fixed amount you gain which will get players to a generic curve -- that could then be supplemented by items or cards for certain decks (like say, a ramp deck) that specifically will build for it if a player so chooses. This is where a robust item system can come into play where you could get perhaps more per turn from items or increase your total as well -- all without the need to build a deck with resources like land in the first place.

The main thing I despise about GH is what you mentioned, the fixed actions per turn -- it's simple but dilutes combat down to the same turns ad nauseum when you know your deck. That intrinsically removes things like the ability to use reactive cards during other players turns -- a healers deck with a reactive heal bomb which could be a very rare card -- or a tank could reactively have a taunt to save an ally about to get split in two by the berserking 2h axe wielding beast that got into the back lines. This also adds the strategy required to conserve enough resources which makes combat in MtG so dynamic for decks that operate that way (say a Blue deck vs a super agro deck which just goes to the face). And just to be clear, my target audience is going to be more of the kind of gamer on these forums -- someone who can understand say a solid raiding level comprehension of how gear, abilities, rotations etc all come together for one to be successful. I know it will turn some of the more the casuals away, but the entire genre for the most part is full of those games -- and Im ok with that. The key here is balancing complexity and still having the ability to play at a decent pace without being bogged down by 10 minute turns.

Hateyou · Mar 10, 2021

My only suggestion at the moment is to focus on the game itself before the art. Like buy decks of blank white cards and just write shit on them. Get the mechanics and play testing going first. That takes a long time, so while that’s going on you can start on the art portion.

Genjiro · Mar 10, 2021

Oh for sure. To give you an idea of where I am in my "art" phase, here is an example of me quick sketching in "the ideas notebook" recently while tinkering with an "Oracle" type of class. Kind of a gypsy fortune teller with similar looking dress, jewelry etc. Getting down a small thumbnail kind of thing like this helps get the ball rolling, and I was even listening to some trippy appropriate gypsy music get me in the right headspace. If I'm doing something like an aggressive war theme/class I'll put on the LotR soundtrack with all the orc music smashing the drums of war to get my head in the right place for that. "Finished" art takes way too fucking long to get trapped into something you might change and then want to kill yourself.

Hateyou · Mar 10, 2021

Genjiro said:
Oh for sure. To give you an idea of where I am in my "art" phase, here is an example of me quick sketching in "the ideas notebook" recently while tinkering with an "Oracle" type of class. Kind of a gypsy fortune teller with similar looking dress, jewelry etc. Getting down a small thumbnail kind of thing like this helps get the ball rolling, and I was even listening to some trippy appropriate gypsy music get me in the right headspace. If I'm doing something like an aggressive war theme/class I'll put on the LotR soundtrack with all the orc music smashing the drums of war to get my head in the right place for that. "Finished" art takes way too fucking long to get trapped into something you might change and then want to kill yourself.

View attachment 341123

I think concept doodles is perfectly fine, just meant to not spend a lot of time trying to finalize shit because it may not work with what you end up making. Anyways, I think our mindset on it is aligned based on your post.

Here’s some Turkish marching music for future inspiration doodles.

Ossoi · Mar 11, 2021

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What would you like to see in a board game?

Genjiro

Ahn'Qiraj Raider

Hateyou

Not Great, Not Terrible

Seananigans

Honorary Shit-PhD

Genjiro

Ahn'Qiraj Raider

Sterling

El Presidente

Genjiro

Ahn'Qiraj Raider

Hateyou

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Njals

Sterling

El Presidente

Hateyou

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Warr

Guurn

Hateyou

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Skinny Minis: A new type of miniature for tabletop RPGs

Genjiro

Ahn'Qiraj Raider

Seananigans

Honorary Shit-PhD

Genjiro

Ahn'Qiraj Raider

Hateyou

Not Great, Not Terrible

Genjiro

Ahn'Qiraj Raider

Hateyou

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Ossoi

Tranny Chaser