World of Warcraft: Current Year

Dalien

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My problem with the GOGOGO timed shit is that it bleeds over into the rest of the game. I've been running normal/heroic Spires to get my last runecarver memory, and half the time people act like it's a timed +20 run or something. Tank racing through the place like his ass is on fire, healers/dps bitching that it's taking too long, etc. Even without the timer players are conditioned to the "gotta go fast" mentality.

Not to mention skipping shit. In Spires there's this ramp with these mobs that the tank always tries to skip, and more often then not (especially in normal) someone ass pulls it and we have to go back and kill it anyways. God forbid we kill a single mob that we don't "have" to. It just seems like it's usually faster if we just kill the damn thing in the first place instead of trying to be cute with skips in a PUG.
 
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Mist

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You're gonna skip that pull every time in M+ so you might as well learn how to in normal/heroic.
 
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Warmuth

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By this point most people have run those dungeons to death and gotten their asses handed to them plenty in m+ so heroics are just gonna be revenge porn.
 

Mist

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I like queueing up for normals as a fully geared DH tank when they're giving out the bonus bags, and then just pull entire subzones at once. +15% damage from the pug luck buff and you do some pretty insane damage and have over 80k base health.

Extra good because I have a high ilvl ocarina so I can buff the low levels in the party.
 

a c i d.f l y

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My problem with the GOGOGO timed shit is that it bleeds over into the rest of the game. I've been running normal/heroic Spires to get my last runecarver memory, and half the time people act like it's a timed +20 run or something. Tank racing through the place like his ass is on fire, healers/dps bitching that it's taking too long, etc. Even without the timer players are conditioned to the "gotta go fast" mentality.

Not to mention skipping shit. In Spires there's this ramp with these mobs that the tank always tries to skip, and more often then not (especially in normal) someone ass pulls it and we have to go back and kill it anyways. God forbid we kill a single mob that we don't "have" to. It just seems like it's usually faster if we just kill the damn thing in the first place instead of trying to be cute with skips in a PUG.

One of the critical factors missing in the modern MMO is the ability to spend 4 hours crawling through a dungeon. Not rushing it in 15 minutes several times for a random drop box each week. Some of the most fun and memorable moments in all of my WOW experience were done in Zulfarrak, Mara, BRD, and BRS. Even dungeons in TBC had already been pretty streamlined. Never played Everquest, but I imagine the sentiment is the same. UO had a lot of that as well, but they were missing the objective aspect. Find the Lich room and farm kills for skill points and silver/indestructible gear of vanquishing.

Something I've found in modern looter shooters was that I spend more time waiting for people to load than actually completing a mission. Totally kills the social aspect.
 
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Ukerric

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Never played Everquest, but I imagine the sentiment is the same.
That's a bit about reward vs time. In EQ, most of every mob gave you something. Components for spell crafting, gems for spellcasting, faction, but more importantly, XP, notably when AA appeared.

Named and their drops were important, sure. But they were not 100% of what you were there for.

But in WoW? There is exactly one thing you're there for when you go in a dungeon: the last boss. Sometimes not even for its drop, just for the completion of the dungeon itself. Everything else is perceived as delaying the objectives, not rewarding you, even in a slightly different way.

That is the endpoint of the current game design of WoW: every single aspect of it is there to delay you from obtaining the only thing that is remotely useful in your gameplay: finishing X. Timegates, trash packs, intermediate bosses... not even the random powerups they put in Thorgast seem to manage to break the mindset, since everything else in the game reinforces it.
 
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Mist

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One of the critical factors missing in the modern MMO is the ability to spend 4 hours crawling through a dungeon. Not rushing it in 15 minutes several times for a random drop box each week. Some of the most fun and memorable moments in all of my WOW experience were done in Zulfarrak, Mara, BRD, and BRS. Even dungeons in TBC had already been pretty streamlined. Never played Everquest, but I imagine the sentiment is the same. UO had a lot of that as well, but they were missing the objective aspect. Find the Lich room and farm kills for skill points and silver/indestructible gear of vanquishing.

Something I've found in modern looter shooters was that I spend more time waiting for people to load than actually completing a mission. Totally kills the social aspect.
Wasn't Operation: Mechagon like this on release before they broke it up into 2 mythics a few patches later once nobody was running it anymore?

And the new one should be the same way?
 
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Muligan

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I think Dungeon crawling is what I miss most in MMOs. Outside he general adventuring and fear/excitement of traveling into the unknown. I believe that's why I have enjoyed Valheim so much. Getting 4-5 friends together, exploring, dying, all over the plus can be frustrating at times but its certainly more fun than just studying routes and time savers to blow through everything as quickly as possible. It's borderline torture. Maybe its because I've been a MT for our build the last expansion an a half. If you don't go in with some friends/guildies, dungeon suck. People leave, verbally abuse you, and you're constantly getting all blame and/or credit for the run. It's awful.....

I know EQ had its share of frustrations with dungeons and people but it was different.
 

Secrets

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Wasn't Operation: Mechagon like this on release before they broke it up into 2 mythics a few patches later once nobody was running it anymore?

And the new one should be the same way?
Yes. The current MMO player is not used to what acidfly is mentioning because the only ones left playing are those that are used to the 15 minute boss runs.

I'm personally against huge time commitments in WoW & other games, but that is just my opinion - we're all grown up and we're not 16-25 years old in highschool/college killing Vulak`Aerr or Ragnaros in our mom's basement anymore. A majority of the people don't have time anymore to sit on a computer for hour at a time in one sitting. You gotta feed the kids. You gotta mow your own lawn. You gotta take out your own trash. You gotta fuck your wife's boyfriend. Etc.

But for the few that are in their mom's basement at age 30-60 still, or those that have minimal responsibilities, that kind of game still can coexist. It just won't be the massive success EQ was.

I'd say EQ was only popular because it was the only game of its kind.

When WoW came out in 2004, and gave you everything you got from EQ except marginally better, they took over the MMO market *and* lowered the barrier of entry again. The MMO genre was not just for nerds anymore; anyone could play it without an EQ level of time commitment.

That's also when the mass appeal started to more than just us 'basement dwelling nerds'.
 
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BoozeCube

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Yes. The current MMO player is not used to what acidfly is mentioning because the only ones left playing are those that are used to the 15 minute boss runs.

I'm personally against huge time commitments in WoW & other games, but that is just my opinion - we're all grown up and we're not 16-25 years old in highschool/college killing Vulak`Aerr or Ragnaros in our mom's basement anymore. A majority of the people don't have time anymore to sit on a computer for hour at a time in one sitting. You gotta feed the kids. You gotta mow your own lawn. You gotta take out your own trash. You gotta fuck your wife's boyfriend. Etc.

But for the few that are in their mom's basement at age 30-60 still, or those that have minimal responsibilities, that kind of game still can coexist. It just won't be the massive success EQ was.

I'd say EQ was only popular because it was the only game of its kind.

When WoW came out in 2004, and gave you everything you got from EQ except marginally better, they took over the MMO market *and* lowered the barrier of entry again. The MMO genre was not just for nerds anymore; anyone could play it without an EQ level of time commitment.

That's also when the mass appeal started to more than just us 'basement dwelling nerds'.
I've always thought this was the dumbest fucking argument on earth by completely selfish retard faggots. You want an entire genre altered to fit you're "I only got 15 minutes to play" bullshit. Well play Mario Kart then faggot. Instead you opt to ruin the very soul of what made an MMORPG fun to begin with.
 
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Serpens

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My problem with the GOGOGO timed shit is that it bleeds over into the rest of the game. I've been running normal/heroic Spires to get my last runecarver memory, and half the time people act like it's a timed +20 run or something. Tank racing through the place like his ass is on fire, healers/dps bitching that it's taking too long, etc. Even without the timer players are conditioned to the "gotta go fast" mentality.

Not to mention skipping shit. In Spires there's this ramp with these mobs that the tank always tries to skip, and more often then not (especially in normal) someone ass pulls it and we have to go back and kill it anyways. God forbid we kill a single mob that we don't "have" to. It just seems like it's usually faster if we just kill the damn thing in the first place instead of trying to be cute with skips in a PUG.
Spend 35 grateful offerings at your covenant armor vendor and you can have that last memory.
 

Mist

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I've always thought this was the dumbest fucking argument on earth by completely selfish retard faggots. You want an entire genre altered to fit you're "I only got 15 minutes to play" bullshit. Well play Mario Kart then faggot. Instead you opt to ruin the very soul of what made an MMORPG fun to begin with.
I dunno why people keep tossing around "15 minutes." An M+ is at the very least 45 minutes, more with travel time. There will be a ~2 hour dungeon with save points in the next patch, but if it's like Operation: Mechagon it will likely get broken up into 2x 45 minute dungeons a year later and put into the standard rotation if we actually hit a Season 4 of this expac.
 

Secrets

ResetEra Staff Member
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I've always thought this was the dumbest fucking argument on earth by completely selfish retard faggots. You want an entire genre altered to fit you're "I only got 15 minutes to play" bullshit. Well play Mario Kart then faggot. Instead you opt to ruin the very soul of what made an MMORPG fun to begin with.
It's not an argument for or against. I don't want the entire genre altered. I want a game made with realistic expectations for players, separate from what the Classic EQ/WoW/OSRS crowd wants.

I'd love a game where you could log in without commitment.

I also don't want the MMO genre to be destroyed for those that want to invest a shit ton of time into a game. P99 proves there's a market for those people, and everyone can exist in their niche.

Clearly, though, the idea is profitable. And Blizzard isn't the company they used to be - they want $$$. Sub-1hr dungeon runs and time gated content make money.
 

Bondurant

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That's a bit about reward vs time. In EQ, most of every mob gave you something. Components for spell crafting, gems for spellcasting, faction, but more importantly, XP, notably when AA appeared.

Named and their drops were important, sure. But they were not 100% of what you were there for.

But in WoW? There is exactly one thing you're there for when you go in a dungeon: the last boss. Sometimes not even for its drop, just for the completion of the dungeon itself. Everything else is perceived as delaying the objectives, not rewarding you, even in a slightly different way.

That is the endpoint of the current game design of WoW: every single aspect of it is there to delay you from obtaining the only thing that is remotely useful in your gameplay: finishing X. Timegates, trash packs, intermediate bosses... not even the random powerups they put in Thorgast seem to manage to break the mindset, since everything else in the game reinforces it.
That's a very good point, especially concerning Shadowlands main features: The Maw is basically here to delay your gem sockets acquisition, Torghast your legendaries acquisition / item level. You can't grind them, everything is timegated to produce MAUs rather than letting people play however they want.
 
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Ukerric

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That's a very good point, especially concerning Shadowlands main features: The Maw is basically here to delay your gem sockets acquisition, Torghast your legendaries acquisition / item level. You can't grind them, everything is timegated to produce MAUs rather than letting people play however they want.
As I said, the game has slowly painted itself into a design corner.

FIrstly, the time where XP was meaningful has dropped relative to the rest. Expansions last two years, and the time to cap has shrunk steadily to the point where you essentially cap in, what, 25 hours of /played. 30 if you're a filthy casual that takes AFK breaks all the time?

Once you're past that tiny, tiny little window, every single trash mob is null and void. They attack you while you run around? You're not going to stop to fight them if you can run away. It's not that it's dangerous, it's that it is a stupid USELESS delay.

And it's been compounded by the "oh, we're scaling everything", which basically makes you feel that, in fact, the leveling period is not there to progress - it's there to delay you from reaching max level! So the XP you got no longer feels like a reward.


Secondly, at cap, there is nothing to further refine your character besides your ilvl. Secondaries to differentiate good items for your spec from bad items for your spec aside, the only progression there is is gear... except that your gear acquisition phase has to last TWO years (see above).

They've figured out relatively quickly that they had screwed up, but by then, there was no real solution left. All they've done since is finding band-aids to stretch the gear acquisition phase over the entire expansion, since that's all there is for the majority of people.

So...

Gear resets - you probably noticed, but in terms of gearing, each major patch is now an expansion for EVERYONE (since previously, gear resets were only for raiders, and that didn't really worked). Except for the story, which they can't afford to make, and the levels, which are meaningless anyway.

Currencies for gear. If you can replace gear drops by currencies, you can now have your 30mn-bite-sized sessions drop "less than one piece of gear", since those currencies are divisible where gear was not.

Partial gear. It surprised me that they abandoned Valor upgrades for entire expansions. It's such a great way to stretch your gear acquisition - first you get the piece, then you have to get the currency (see above) to finish the gear.

TImegates for all of the above. Because if your currency can be used by a casual to upgrade, the hardcores will obtain all of the currency needed. Then, since that's all there is to progress the gear, and the gear progression is all there is in the game, it's game over for them, and every time someone cancels their sub "to wait for the patch", there's non-zero chance they're not going to reactivate it because they found another game.

And so on. You need shortcuts for returning people since you have timegates. You need multiple currencies because one is too easy to cap.

And here we are. WoW, 17 years distilled into its pure form of the streamlined carrot, that needs to remain dangling as long as they can while they write the next episode of the Warcraft saga and can have a week or two where nobody complains about lack of gear to obtain.
 
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jayrebb

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Currencies for gear. If you can replace gear drops by currencies, you can now have your 30mn-bite-sized sessions drop "less than one piece of gear", since those currencies are divisible where gear was not.

I maintain that the currency for M+ is not properly tuned, given you already needed to farm the item again to upgrade-- which can be 30-40 runs for a lot of people.

135 a run, we could crunch it. That has to be weeks for a casual? 400 per 3 ilevel upgrade. thats 4 successful runs, including time to get a group,

5 hours per 3 ilevel on good conditions (realistically could be 6-8 hours per 3 ilevel). I think anything above a 10+ key should be 200 valor. This should be a catchup mechanic for 9.1 M+ release since its capped at 220.
 

jayrebb

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I don't think a casual is going to take a 200 ilevel farmed item and upgrade it to 220 by 9.1. I'll do the total calculation of time investment later when I sit down.

And a hardcore player might only be able to upgrade 1 single item, maybe 2 items from 200 to 220 by 9.1 release. I'll see after I do the raw numbers later.

The M+ fucking continues.
 

Mist

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I don't think a casual is going to take a 200 ilevel farmed item and upgrade it to 220 by 9.1. I'll do the total calculation of time investment later when I sit down.

And a hardcore player might only be able to upgrade 1 single item, maybe 2 items from 200 to 220 by 9.1 release. I'll see after I do the raw numbers later.

The M+ fucking continues.
Yeah but no hardcore player is going to upgrade items from 200 ilvl to 220. They're going to upgrade from 210 or 207 as a last resort.

It's still pretty fucked and whomever came up with these numbers for valor is an idiot.

PvP remains the only item progression system that actually seems to be working as intended and is relatively fun, particularly with the vault. They did kinda buttfuck 2hand users and should probably look at that.
 

Korillo

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A 12+ drops base item level 207 gear. A 15 drops 210 gear. So that is 3-4 upgrades to 220, which is 1200-1600 valor for a basic item. It's not too bad to upgrade gear, especially when you can just run a bunch of +2s after you've already got the item you want to upgrade if you want. I made a horde druid and got him to 208 doing only m+, no raids or pvp at all in 2 weeks, so it's not too bad.

Idk, maybe I have just been having a good time because it's not BFA. I can actually play my alts and I don't feel forced to do any content, so I've been enjoying Shadowlands. The only real complaint I have is that torgast is kinda boring so doing each week on main/alts is kinda shitty but at least it's quick.
 

Daidraco

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I honestly just want the feeling I had back in Lower Guk, or Crystal Caverns, etc. Where you can be at say.. the bridge before you take a right down towards Executioner and know that Lord is just a hop and skip away, but if you fuck up on the way.. you're in for a bad time. In Crystal Caverns, if you fell into that pit going towards Dojo by accident... you're going to have a bad time. Basically, there is a sense of danger in the game. My warrior in EQ classic was decked out in a mix of Lustrous and indicolite and the game still had a bazillion places I could die easily at. What else is missing? Since I wasnt a shit head, if I did fuck up and die in one of those hard to get places.. I could get a corpse drag or a summon. What else? A cleric for the group thats filling the spot you were going to before you group fucked up will actually stop and rez you. "Sucks for you and your group bro, but here.. maybe Ill need help later."

In a way, it is rose colored glasses. There were some really shitty parts about EQ that I hated. I was without my gear for what seemed like days because we fucked up so bad when trying to get into Fear. I never want that shit back in a million years for example. But the fear of dying every turn, the social aspect of knowing shit is hard so you help people cause you might need it later.. that type of shit isnt in any of these current MMO's and I miss that.

WoW is not and is never going to be that MMO. I play it now for what it is. Something that I know a lot of people still play that I can be social with people that Ive been playing with for years and years. The game just doesnt really excite me anymore, but its "neat" in some regards.
 
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