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My point is if levels are irrelevant why have them? Why not replace them (or attempt to) with something more interesting or failing that, something different.

I sell things (not retail).

Of course, you can always break things down to the simplest form. EQ has you grind mobs for levels. WOW had you grind mobs for levels, but it wrapped them up in the form of kill X bears and collect 10 of their asses. That was seen as much more entertaining, because it gave you series of short...

Putting infinite levels in front of someone is just going to promote people to get to the level ceiling as fast as possible. It's human nature, it'll always be that way. I mean if you give people 500 levels. People are going to look at it and say, "What the fuck?" Once you start designing...

You can't do that today and use levels. You have to dress it up differently if you want to achieve what you're doing. You have to attach character development to achievements in some form. So if you want an awesome ability/soul/job/class/whatever you have to defeat the big bad guy in the zone...

Right, but it was still vertical, but the power creep was boring and almost flat.

If you want to start discussing how to make a game without levels, I'm all about that. I thinking levels, as a whole, should go away completely. We can theory craft how to implement character development versus content consumption another day. My current iteration in my head is a combination of...

I just used the dude's example where your primary goal was Pick Locking and combat stuff was mediocre. I assume he was inferring that your combat skills were secondary in strength to players who had combat skills. So if you're a pick locker, your dps is worse, or your control is worse, or...

I agree, devs have to make content for people. Where they really fuck up in today's paradigm is they have fast leveling system, yet spend the bulk of their development in the leveling content and their end game is shit. That's not good either, and it's a reason why a lot of games drop off...

Well I guess if you use the context of professional online poker players. I was talking about playing in person at a casino.

I know what you mean. You want your MMORPG to be a hobby and not just a game. I completely understand that and want that for myself. The only thing you can do is try everything that appears to be interesting and see if something sticks. We're getting to the point where more and more MMORPGs are...

You get the opportunity to play every hand, you just happen to fold. You're still engaged playing poker each time.

Well yeah, no matter what you make there is going to be someone who likes it. That doesn't mean a company like SOE who is trying to resurrect their reputation should go dump 10s of millions of dollars into a project and the only thing they have to show for it is a dungeon that just stands still...

Ah but the act of playing poker is fun in of itself, even if you are not winning you're still engaged and playing every hand. The proper analogy would be that you had to wait 20 minutes after a hand before the dealer reshuffles.

See here's the issue, you're idealizing an D&D campaign or novel where that person is brought along to do a certain job and they are happy to do it because they are getting something out of it. In the reality of an MMORPG, you're just the pick lock bitch who does shitty DPS. You do you one...

No, I played those games in the 90s. I played a ton of MUDs where you either camped a single spot for days, or gear only loaded once per server reset (which could be days or weeks). I just grew out of it. Another thing which is funny, that also reflects on your mindset, is you say that a...

I really don't know how to respond to this without rehashing old shit over and over. We just had the community based discussion pages ago. If you're looking for a lasting community, you can find it in WOW (or at least you used to a few years ago, I have no idea how the heroic-raiding community...

While finally getting something after waiting for so long is a fun thing, I just won't play a game if that waiting involves camping just one mob in a single place. I don't mind working my way up to a great reward, but I need decent content to get me there. You prefer a passive game that...

I'm often playing with Eidal (and one or two other people) from here and he's baller. I enjoy playing with others on mumble than solo q'd. Yeah Kass is great mid to late game once you can get your E charged up and you have enough AP to make your ulti do decent damage. Yes and I use my W quite a...

Soft targeting is that you don't need an actual target to have your abilities land. If I cast a fireball as a mage, it goes in a straight line and hits whatever gets in it's way. So this means I can have no target and just cast a fireball straight ahead of my character and it hits my target (no...

I don't have a problem with it, but a lot of people just want to play with a new dynamic. Some people have been doing the whole tank/heal/dps(cc) thing for 15 years. It's understandable to want something different.

I have no idea what angle you're getting at. I'm not trying to piss in your cheerios by saying your preferred form of an MMORPG is bad. I mean if you like a super long leveling curve where it takes you 18 hours to get a level, more power to you. But no company that is putting in millions of...

It's not the same really. You enjoy progressing your character no matter what. I enjoy the same, but I enjoy it many times over once my character has all of his abilities and talent (or whatever) points. I like creating specs and then using them in content. While I am in the leveling process, I...

All you're doing is creating a new trinity. What would happen is you would find the best synergy, and people would ape that over and over. Because with your idea, you're now create classes that do specific special jobs instead of creating special jobs and having classes fit in them. The latter...

You need to do your maths better. Your hardcore player is playing an average of 15 hours a day for 2-3 months according to you. That's 900 to 1350 hours of play time. Your casual player is playing an average of 5 hours a day for 4-6 months according to you. That's 600 to 900 hours of play...

The real problem is game studios allow and gaming sites hire journalists that are clickers. NEvER LET A CLICKER DEMO YOUR GAME. If you're a game studio and you bring a journo in from Massively to look at your new shiny build and you see him sit down to play and he beginnings clicking abilities...

Yeah my CS is god awful, but there are a few contributing factors (these aren't excuses because I need practice). 1) I started playing the game as support and only recently starting playing a bit of mid. I haven't been CSing for long. 2) I haven't consistently been playing one character, so...

Some of you guys make me want to play Heimer, hah. Any suggestions for a build order for Kass? Most of the build orders I've seen and tried are coming from peeps with full masteries and runes and I think my problem is the lack of the bonus damage for early game since typical progression is...

How do you equate horizontal progression to GW2? It was all vertical.

That was GW2's problem. Every time I played a class to level 20-30 I felt like I wanted to reroll because I've seen everything and I had another 60-50 levels to go. The issue was the traits were quite powerful and changed how you played your class (for the most part) however there was a very...

I agree with this almost completely, but that depends on what you mean by slowing down leveling. I think WOW 1.0 had a really nice leveling curve with 5-8 days /played to max. The only thing I can't see myself playing for more than a week or two is a game that is hotbar/tab target based with...

All the game journalists I've talked to, like ones who do it full time, are really bad at video games (or at least MMORPGs) and really shouldn't be covering them in depth at all. They constantly ask the most retarded questions.

FFXIV is a shitty case because they put out a game that sucked, really bad, and basically stole everyone's money. They want an NDA? Meh. Every other thread should respect the NDA though.

You're being weirdly aggressive. Puberty?

What other threads? FFXIV? That game doesn't count.

Do you not understand that I don't want any leaks or NDA breaking originating from this board? No matter how small.

This is what I'm referring to mostly. None of this.

Even saying you're in beta is an NDA violation. Keep it clean fellas.

I simply don't play games with dickheads and assholes. I find groups of people I do like hanging out with. If there are too many assholes, I leave. Being world first in shit doesn't entertain me as much as playing a fun game with a group of good people.

There was massive interconnectivity (new word?) in Guild Wars 2, but the game didn't have legs so it fell apart.