A Song of Ice and Fire (Released Spoilers)

Lithose

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I've already come to grips that the TV show will likely be the ending of the story. I'll probably read the books if they come out, but I'm not too concerned any longer. The show is entertaining and hopefully they are at least kind of following a path given to them by Martin(for the unwritten stuff).
This, as far as I'm concerned George admitted he was done the moment the TV show passed him. He did about all I can ask, and that's to tell someone the ending so I can at least see it. Yeah, it won't have as many smaller story lines, but given I never expected to see them end anyway, I'm fine with this.
 

Ukerric

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I'd forgive him if he announced a Wildcards show or something. No Wildcards, no free pass.
 

Dandai

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Well I'll still be disappointed as fuck if he doesn't finish. Hopefully he'll wrap up Winds this year since he seemed to suggest that he was nearing the finish line with his last ASoIaF update. With any luck, maybe writing Dream of Spring will be so relieving (to finally be done) that it'll just pour out of him.

A man can hope...
 

Dandai

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There's a new Aeron Greyjoy chapter GRRM read this week at a convention. I haven't found a good recording of it yet, but I'll come back here to post it when I do.
 

Sylas

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Question for those of you who follow the show as well as the books, i'll spoiler for those of you who don't:

Do you feel the show is now spoiling plotlines that we didn't even know existed, as of yet in the books? I'm specifically referring to arya's storyline but i'll get to it in a minute. TLDR is at the bottom.

Caveats: The show is an adaptation, though some may feel it's a veryloseadaptation, based on the storylines of the existing novels, the framework given to them for upcoming novels, and the ultimate conclusion told to the show runners by grrm for each of the main players. The paths they take to get there will not be identical, and because of the medium there are various restraints (like actors, time constraints, financial concerns, settings, etc) which will result in further changes, either planned or sometimes unforeseen changes from the book to the screen. These issues compound season after season so eventually the storylines may become wildly different than how they appeared in the novels, but ultimately the same outcome occurs.

Since George elected not to use the 5 year gap, the last few novels have mostly just been filler to pass time before the main characters complete their training montages. Shit happens, side characters are introduced, sometimes it's interesting, and some events may even be relevant later, but mostly it's just filler.

Books 1 -3 set up every single character with approx 5 years of downtime, whether it's learning to command (jon), learning to rule (Dany), learning to be a maester (sam), learning to fight left handed (Jaime), learning to play the game (Sansa), getting over grief and regret (Tyrion) etc, etc, etc. With this knowledge, we all kinda assume that Arya's 5 year gap "downtime" is her training to become a faceless man, so that she can return to westeros and kill people. Without the 5 year gap, we've gotten to read about this journey for the last 2 books, and watch it unfold for the last 2 seasons, and thus it seems like it's quite an investment, and thus deserving of some huge payoff, which would be true if it wasn't just filler.

But now, shit has started to go sideways for Arya in the show, which has raised a lot of questions in the TV thread (along with about 6 pages of shit slinging between retards arguing over the metaphysical aspects of how face changing works). The common thread of the questions is this:

"Wait, how is arya going to become a faceless man now? I mean that's how it's going to happen in the books"

But is it? how do we know that?

Of course there's a few episodes left of the season and we don't know how it will end, but it seems most people are coming from the perspective that Arya completes her training, or at least learns the magic needed to become a faceless man, and then returns to westeros. So all the theories and speculation surrounding the current situation are trying to maintain those prerequisites, and those theories are becoming more and more absurd. Otherwise, people just assume that it's "yet another change because TV, it won't happen that way in the books"

But when we compare her show story with her book story, and see the similarities, the same failings and faults that book arya has being shown in TV, it becomes apparent to me that perhaps the show isn't changing the book storyline, it's spoiling the book storyline that we didn't even realize could occur.

Book Arya is in the house of black and white, training to become a faceless man, same as TV arya. There have been some changes and some abbreviations of the story due to TV restraints of course, but the major elements of the storylines are the same.

Just like Show Arya, Book Arya isn't really buying in to the whole "becoming no one" which is a requirement to becoming a faceless. In the books she cheats at the blind fighting trial by warging into a Cat and seeing through it's eyes to "pass". We also know her thoughts because it's a book and can read her internal monologues, she's definitely still Arya.

In the books she completes her first assassination of the insurance man without a problem, while in the show she bails on that assignment when a person on her list (Meryn Trant) appears and she decides she'd rather scratch his name off her list instead. But in a way, she does the same thing in the books. In Arya 1 preview chapter of Winds, she's on assignment with the mummers doing the "war of the five kings" play, called "The bloody hand" (more on this in a minute), and risks failing that assignment when she notices Raff the sweetling in the audience and decides she'd rather scratch his name off her list. (The show had already used this kill back in Season 4 at the Inn with the hound, so changed it to Meryn Trant dying instead). We don't know the fallout from this choice, everyone just assumes she's fine and gets away with it...

So what do we know of Arya in Winds? We know the faceless men have sent her on a mission to kill someone, but we don't know who it is yet. We know she's infiltrated a group of mummers, which is the same as the TV Arya.

Now since the show is so far ahead of the books, we see that (atleast TV) Arya's mission is to assassinate an innocent woman because of a greedy understudy... and while infiltrating these people, getting to know and empathize with them, she realizes that the faceless aren't what she was expecting, they are a death cult, religious assassins, who serve death, they care not for innocence or guilt, only that they appease their god by granting death (and perhaps they kill for money, there are no specifics in how one pays for their services), and she decides she is Arya Stark after all.


TLDR: Before the show, the assumption was that Arya becomes a faceless man and returns to westeros. Now the show is questioning this assumption, and my belief is that this is more than just "durr show makes changes all the time, it's not going to happen like that in the books, she'll totally become a faceless man"

It's possible she dies in braavos, and that's the conclusion of her story. Or, perhaps she does survive, and returns to westeros as Arya, and not a faceless no one. Hell, perhaps in her moment of death she enters the wolf dream she's constantly having, ie wargs, and becomes Nymeria, living out her days murdering all with a great wolf pack at her side (nah not really, but it's possible).
 

Lenas

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Sylas,
of course the show is spoiling plot lines and introducing things we never knew about (like Children creating Others)... But if you ever thought Arya was going to join the FM proper then I dunno. I've always figured she would learn just enough and then bail, it's hinted at throughout her entire Bravos storyline that she can't be "no one."

One thing I am certain of, is that Arya will not be dying this season.

Her TWoW story will be similar. We already know from the Mercy chapter that she kills someone against the rules of the FM. Because of that I think another FM (likely the waif) will make an attempt on Arya's life and she'll escape similarly.
 

Dandai

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I agree Lenas. The show is hitting the major plot points from the book characters, just not necessarily in the right order or with the exact details from the books. I think it's very safe to assume that the show is spoiling the books.

I thought I would, but I actually don't mind the spoilers from the show. It might be a little harsh, but comparatively speaking the show might as well be written in crayon. They can't (or won't) be as subtle and nuanced as the novels, and for me that's what makes Martin's style of writing so awesome. The combination of the first person perspective, extremely relatable characters (protagonists AND antagonists), and all the details and subtleties that you probably won't catch on your first read is what makes A Song of Ice and Fire special to me. The show struggles with all of those things and thus will always be a pale imitation in my eyes.

Don't get me wrong, I definitely would've preferred the books finished before the show; but reading the books after the show's series finale won't dampen my enjoyment in the least.
 

Talos

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Do you feel the show is now spoiling plotlines that we didn't even know existed, as of yet in the books? I'm specifically referring to arya's storyline but i'll get to it in a minute.
Yes, this season has started to go past the books and is revealing things George hasn't written yet. I really wish I could've read these things first, but the show is there, and it's hard to resist. Both because it's a good show, and because it's finally moving shit along that GRRM is taking his sweet ass time with.

Yes, the show is turning a lot of our assumptions upside down. Everyone assumed Arya would become a Faceless Man, return to Westeros and fuck shit up. With the most recent episode, that's looking a lot less likely. Yeah, it could still happen, but so could a lot of other things. Same with Cleganebowl. A lot of people really wanted it to happen, some even convinced it was definitely going to happen. However, there was never any real evidence for this in the books, and the show is now making it seem a lot less likely, with Sandor going after the BWB.

I think a lot of people who both read the books and watch the show are going to have to start making a tough decision of how they want the story, and most likely it's conclusion, presented to them. Obviously the books would the the preferred method for most, but how difficult will it be to resist watching it first?
 

Mountain Man_sl

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That chapter has me kind of excited. I mean surely the last two books will be amazing as he finally starts to tie up some loose ends and so forth. I'm really interested to see how all the characters end up.
 

Araxen

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George R.R. Martin to Stephen King: "How the Fuck Do You Write So Fast?"

George asked him "How the fuck do you write so fast? I have a good six months and crank out 3 chapters, meanwhile you wrote 3 books in that time!"Stephen answered that he writes almost every day and demands 6 pages a day from him self. [sic] George was amazed by that.He replied "You always get six pages? You never get constipated? You never get up and go get the mail, and think 'Maybe I don't have any talent and should have been a plumber?'"
Oh boy..
 

lindz

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It is going to be amazingly tough for GRRM to finish the series now. He's a discovery writer and having to follow very specific plot lines now without deviating much from them is not only going to slow him down, but change his writing. A discovery writer may plot sure, but when you sit down to write a scene often goes off in a direction you never even realized. Characters do the same thing. Even my clients that are plotters will often deviate from their plan because a character took hold of the reigns and took the scene elsewhere.

I don't envy the guy at all.
 

TomServo

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It is going to be amazingly tough for GRRM to finish the series now. He's a discovery writer and having to follow very specific plot lines now without deviating much from them is not only going to slow him down, but change his writing. A discovery writer may plot sure, but when you sit down to write a scene often goes off in a direction you never even realized. Characters do the same thing. Even my clients that are plotters will often deviate from their plan because a character took hold of the reigns and took the scene elsewhere.

I don't envy the guy at all.
That's the sign of a weak writer and I highly doubt that is the cause of the delays.
 

wamphyr

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And GRRM writes better than King. I mean, his writing style is more artistic, a condensed lyricism permeates his narrative. It is harder to write like that and fast at the same time. I am not saying that his books are "per se" better than King's, but i appreciate his style more.
 

TomServo

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And GRRM writes better than King. I mean, his writing style is more artistic, a condensed lyricism permeates his narrative. It is harder to write like that and fast at the same time. I am not saying that his books are "per se" better than King's, but i appreciate his style more.
Are you basing that on the fact the center of your post is so purple it might as well be grape drank? King's writing being "worse" is entirely subjective based on your criteria for writing. Also cocaine.
 

Dandai

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You're right; it's subjective. But I wholeheartedly agree that Germ's writing is better. All the King books I've read have done well enough presenting the story (though the stories themselves were not always done as well as they were presented), but Germ's novels (at least the ones I've read - ASoIaF and Fevre Dream) are more immersive because of their in-depth focus on the characters and settings. I can't think of a single instance where I thought to myself, "THEY WOULD NEVER DO THAT WTF?!?" when reading a Germ novel. I definitely cannot say the same for King.