All things Brandon Sanderson
- Thread starter Arative
- Start date
Wombat
Trakanon Raider
- 2,447
- 1,141
I'm whelmed by it. (Note that I haven't read most of the Mistborn books and am likely missing context.)
I think Sanderson himself knew that this book would have severe pacing issues from all of the humans-on-Roshar backstory he wanted to cover, and so he set up the "territorial conquest up until the Contest" approach. However, this approach had problems across the board:
The backstory:
Unless it sets up some sort of forgotten doomsday device, there's no threat in flashbacks - all those events happened up to millennia ago. And not only is there no doomsday device, there's also nothing particularly noteworthy about the flashbacks. We learn (but should have already inferred, given that their ethnicities don't line up) that the Heralds are pre-humans-on-Roshar. While the final component to the Recreance supports why the Stormfather assumed humans were bad news, we already knew from book 3 on that the world wasn't strictly two sided (Odium vs Honor), with the corrupted spren, Cultivation, etc. in the margins. Beyond that, I am not sure we learn anything* in the flashbacks, and those are a significant chunk of the book.
*Well, we do learn who Shallan's mother actually is. However, this introduces a host of problems, as the Stormfather explicitly stated (in Oathbringer) both that Taln finally breaking was what started the new Desolation and that no Heralds have died since they broke the Oathpact. To justify this, Sanderson reveals that the Stormfather, the remaining chunk of Honor, in a book titled Winds & Truth, has been lying constantly. However, this doesn't make sense either in-universe or out-of-universe:
In-universe: What does the Stormfather gain from lying about this? It helps neither him nor Dalinar's forces. Hell, Jasnah explicitly theorizes that "Hey, we should go kill a Herald and buy ourselves some time" - it wouldn't have been useful information for everyone to know that this only bought six years last time around?
Out-of-universe: Again, what does this get us? Sanderson saying "Taln's the bestest evar, he didn't break!"? Or does he need Shallan to have "Can die and have hijinks in Braise**" powers in the future? Either way, we get no payoff as of now, in exchange for not being able to trust any of the history.
**Then again, why would she? Hell, in general, why would the New Oathpact work, if Dalinar broke all agreements AND Odium doesn't technically exist anymore? Do we even know what the New Oathpact actually does?
Territorial conquest:
First off, it takes forever for the fights to actually get started, and once they do, Sanderson makes it way too obvious which ones actually matter.
Shattered Plains: We know from The Sunlit Man that the Sigzil's battle goes poorly but not disastrously, and you can summarize that chunk to "Moash kills his required minor named character per book, and the independent singers deploy legalese" (that may or may not apply to Retribution).
Thaylen City: Here too we can guess there's no actual conflict far too early. And while I appreciate Jasnah getting knocked down a peg (essentially offscreen, she's gone from 'Scholar who's ahead on the Spren curve" to "Acting Queen of a country, first radiant to go fourth oath, and entirely rewriting Alethki politics (ending slavery, introducing democracy, having women in combat, etc.)", for all the time spent getting to that point, Jasnah's self-defense is laughable - for instance, I'm pretty sure she would say "Yeah, my spren and I had suspicions about my sister-in-law that tried to partner with an Unmade, was fine starving her populace, and tried killing her husband and everyone else. Why aren't you leveraging my foresight?"
Azimir: The bright spot of the book. The "reverse siege" is a neat concept, and Adolin remains the only likable lead. Yes, the Unbound are yet another deus ex machina save, but those are par for the course with this series. A bit concerned that Sanderson implicitly states "This is the modern audiences nation!" while also leaving them in the best position to be the power base of the back half.
Shinovar: While initially I was excited to learn more about the pre-Roshar civilization, its quickly made clear that they're just as delusional as to the actual historical record as anyone else. And while Sanderson can still write action well, I question whether 'Szeth's Knockoff Game of Death' was worth the page count. (With intermissions where Kal near instantly mitigates millennia of mental trauma).
--
The future: Frankly, Sanderson does too good a job establishing New Odium's powers (e.g. Kharbranth). He's so powerful compared to everyone else that there had to be a complete setting reset to make it plausible for the conflict to continue into the future. While I'm interested in seeing what that new normal is, I'm also worried about the huge gap Sanderson is taking in the universe (other than the Rock novella, it sounds like we're getting the entirety of Mistborn Era 3 and Elantris books 2 and 3 before we get book 6) - just how many revisions and 'corrections' to the past storyline are we going to get when Sanderson finally swings back to this?
--
TL - DR: Better than Rhythm of War (but then again, literally what books of Sanderson's aren't), but not as good as Oathbringer.
I think Sanderson himself knew that this book would have severe pacing issues from all of the humans-on-Roshar backstory he wanted to cover, and so he set up the "territorial conquest up until the Contest" approach. However, this approach had problems across the board:
The backstory:
Unless it sets up some sort of forgotten doomsday device, there's no threat in flashbacks - all those events happened up to millennia ago. And not only is there no doomsday device, there's also nothing particularly noteworthy about the flashbacks. We learn (but should have already inferred, given that their ethnicities don't line up) that the Heralds are pre-humans-on-Roshar. While the final component to the Recreance supports why the Stormfather assumed humans were bad news, we already knew from book 3 on that the world wasn't strictly two sided (Odium vs Honor), with the corrupted spren, Cultivation, etc. in the margins. Beyond that, I am not sure we learn anything* in the flashbacks, and those are a significant chunk of the book.
*Well, we do learn who Shallan's mother actually is. However, this introduces a host of problems, as the Stormfather explicitly stated (in Oathbringer) both that Taln finally breaking was what started the new Desolation and that no Heralds have died since they broke the Oathpact. To justify this, Sanderson reveals that the Stormfather, the remaining chunk of Honor, in a book titled Winds & Truth, has been lying constantly. However, this doesn't make sense either in-universe or out-of-universe:
In-universe: What does the Stormfather gain from lying about this? It helps neither him nor Dalinar's forces. Hell, Jasnah explicitly theorizes that "Hey, we should go kill a Herald and buy ourselves some time" - it wouldn't have been useful information for everyone to know that this only bought six years last time around?
Out-of-universe: Again, what does this get us? Sanderson saying "Taln's the bestest evar, he didn't break!"? Or does he need Shallan to have "Can die and have hijinks in Braise**" powers in the future? Either way, we get no payoff as of now, in exchange for not being able to trust any of the history.
**Then again, why would she? Hell, in general, why would the New Oathpact work, if Dalinar broke all agreements AND Odium doesn't technically exist anymore? Do we even know what the New Oathpact actually does?
Territorial conquest:
First off, it takes forever for the fights to actually get started, and once they do, Sanderson makes it way too obvious which ones actually matter.
Shattered Plains: We know from The Sunlit Man that the Sigzil's battle goes poorly but not disastrously, and you can summarize that chunk to "Moash kills his required minor named character per book, and the independent singers deploy legalese" (that may or may not apply to Retribution).
Thaylen City: Here too we can guess there's no actual conflict far too early. And while I appreciate Jasnah getting knocked down a peg (essentially offscreen, she's gone from 'Scholar who's ahead on the Spren curve" to "Acting Queen of a country, first radiant to go fourth oath, and entirely rewriting Alethki politics (ending slavery, introducing democracy, having women in combat, etc.)", for all the time spent getting to that point, Jasnah's self-defense is laughable - for instance, I'm pretty sure she would say "Yeah, my spren and I had suspicions about my sister-in-law that tried to partner with an Unmade, was fine starving her populace, and tried killing her husband and everyone else. Why aren't you leveraging my foresight?"
Azimir: The bright spot of the book. The "reverse siege" is a neat concept, and Adolin remains the only likable lead. Yes, the Unbound are yet another deus ex machina save, but those are par for the course with this series. A bit concerned that Sanderson implicitly states "This is the modern audiences nation!" while also leaving them in the best position to be the power base of the back half.
Shinovar: While initially I was excited to learn more about the pre-Roshar civilization, its quickly made clear that they're just as delusional as to the actual historical record as anyone else. And while Sanderson can still write action well, I question whether 'Szeth's Knockoff Game of Death' was worth the page count. (With intermissions where Kal near instantly mitigates millennia of mental trauma).
--
The future: Frankly, Sanderson does too good a job establishing New Odium's powers (e.g. Kharbranth). He's so powerful compared to everyone else that there had to be a complete setting reset to make it plausible for the conflict to continue into the future. While I'm interested in seeing what that new normal is, I'm also worried about the huge gap Sanderson is taking in the universe (other than the Rock novella, it sounds like we're getting the entirety of Mistborn Era 3 and Elantris books 2 and 3 before we get book 6) - just how many revisions and 'corrections' to the past storyline are we going to get when Sanderson finally swings back to this?
--
TL - DR: Better than Rhythm of War (but then again, literally what books of Sanderson's aren't), but not as good as Oathbringer.
- 2
Valorath
Blackwing Lair Raider
- 1,213
- 2,357
Just read this part yesterday. Knew it was coming because I can't help looking at spoilers all squinty-eyed and shit. Someone earlier posted "Taln goes bananas." So I've been looking forward to this ever since. Really wish I hadn't hyped it up so much in my head. I wanted to SEE this shit going down, not the aftermath. Still incredibly bad ass though.
Just finished day 8. I'm over the Spiritual Realm. What a drag.
Hatorade
A nice asshole.
- 8,738
- 7,701
For some reason I thought Wind and Truth was the end of the series...
I have nothing great to add so I will say I agree with everyone else. I feel like he tied a bunch of shit up but the things we cared about he just went meh they over there or something...
I have nothing great to add so I will say I agree with everyone else. I feel like he tied a bunch of shit up but the things we cared about he just went meh they over there or something...
Deruvian
Lord Nagafen Raider
- 722
- 142
I feel you. Didn't mean to raise expectations on that piece, but it felt like literally the only awesome thing that happened in the whole tome.
Szeth
Trakanon Raider
- 2,274
- 1,066
I went back and re-listened to the Wax and Wayne books, as well as Secret History... I am so hooked on wtf is going on in the Cosmere at this point that he's got me no matter what. I am super excited for the Ghostblood books. I am undecided if I think Kelsier is a good guy or bad guy.
- 1
Furry
Email Loading Please Wait
- 24,205
- 32,993
Reading book 5 of stormlight and man its rough. Like 80% of what is going on just doesn't advance or contribute to the story. It's just character diatribing about their mental illnesses or talking down on other characters for not accepting their mental illnesses, while the char being talked to is all like OMG I didn't realize how wrong I was.
This is getting to hair tugging levels of bad. Sanderson needs to fix his shit and stop trying to do this retarded teenager therapy grandstanding stuff. I powered through Wheel of time, so I know it will take more than this to get me to stop, but cmon.
This is getting to hair tugging levels of bad. Sanderson needs to fix his shit and stop trying to do this retarded teenager therapy grandstanding stuff. I powered through Wheel of time, so I know it will take more than this to get me to stop, but cmon.
- 1
Furry
Email Loading Please Wait
- 24,205
- 32,993
Alright, about 90% of my way through this book. Reading it VERY slow for me, mostly because I keep hitting moments where I go "UGH, IS THIS HOW FAGS THINK?". A book is supposed to be full of moments that are badass, make me think, or make me think how badass they are. This book is full of boring and gay. It's legitimately worse than the hair tugging parts of WoT, as at least that was just boring. This must be what its like to roll double 0s in life and become a family court appeals judge.
Depression and therapy quest sucks ass. When literally every character breaks down in front of the protagonist to beg for modern therapy... WUT? Someone needs to feed sanderson some coke and meth or something, because this situation is untenable.
Depression and therapy quest sucks ass. When literally every character breaks down in front of the protagonist to beg for modern therapy... WUT? Someone needs to feed sanderson some coke and meth or something, because this situation is untenable.
- 2
Bloodrocuted
Trakanon Raider
- 290
- 422
I've taken to skimming/skipping her chapters and haven't missed anything. Adolin is HARD CARRYING this book for me. I'm a little over 1/2 way...if Khaladin really becomes the first radiant psychotherapist I'm out.
- 2
Late to the party on this one but finally made it through. This one was really a slog and that is coming from someone who didn't mind Rhythm of War.
Initial thoughts after finishing last night...
Initial thoughts after finishing last night...
Overall, there were just so few arcs I truly cared about. Some started out alright and some had some bright moments but most were boring.
Adolin / Azimir
The Adolin / Azimir arc was clearly superior. I was invested the whole way through as he is a good character and you can't help but root for him. The payoff in the end wasn't quite as grand as I would have liked. I was expecting a larger battle rather than a guerilla force and duel, but this was good enough. I really wanted him to unlock the dead eye sword and become some sort of quasi radiant and that happened.
The one thing I really thought they were setting up for in the beginning would have been icing on the cake. When Gallant was tromping around with the wind spren in Shadesmar I was hoping his horse would bond a spren as well. That would have been rad, but unfortunately (probably good for long term health) Gallant was absent from most of the book.
Szeth / Kaladin / Shinovar
I am pretty sure Szeth / Kaladin / Syl in Shinovar was my next favorite, but it is close to a tie with Sigzil. I liked getting Szeth's backstory and working through the corrupted heralds. There was some decent action but it was confounded too much by the whole therapy angle.
Sanderson: Hear me out guys, I am going to take one of the most powerful characters in the series that everyone is invested in and turn him into a shrink.
Everyone: ...
Sanderson: Oh, but wait, it gets better. He will defeat a herald.
Everyone: Oh, that's going to be awesome.
Sanderson: But not with a spear...with a flute and the power of music!
Everyone: ...
Again, with this arc, I was hoping for something to play out that...might still in the future. I really thought by Syl becoming corporeal she and Kaladin would become a thing. I think that is still in the cards potentially for the next half.
Not to mention, 'I. AM. THE. LAW'. C'mon man, Judge Dredd, really? Way to kill my immersion.
Sigzil / Venli / Shattered Plains
This arc was pretty solid for me. I called the Listener / Human tag-team pretty early in the line but enjoyed watching it play out. I thought it would play out via battle rather than diplomacy. A bit fremen / sandworm adjacent, but meh.
I am now trying to remember if I just missed Moash dying, but pretty sure he made it away. His crystal shard eye concept was neat.
Bonus points for one of the fights in the beginning. I really liked the image in my head when the wind runners flew Stormwall into the fight like a Jaeger in Pacific Rim.
Dalinar / Navai / Spiritual Realm
Just...boring? The history lesson could have been so much shorter.
Shallan
Separating Shallan from Renarin / Rlain because it was a little better but I wasn't terribly interested. When she folded Veil into her personality in the previous books it made me feel feelings. Didn't care about Ghostbloods, Mraize, etc. This time around it just wasn't very impactful.
Renarin / Rlain
This was just a component of the whole 'love will overcome' theme and it was just layered on too thick. The comment earlier of this book 'being full of boring and gay.' is exactly correct for this arc. There was no need to rub the reader's nose in it over and over and over again. These types of relationships can be written well and not be made awkward but this one was decidedly not in my opinion.
Jasnah / Thayleneh
Only thing to say here is that I didn't mind how this wrapped up. The debate battle with Odium was great. Jasnah ultimately played such a small role it was hard to get invested. It is another instance of one of the most powerful radiants in the story being wasted.
Adolin / Azimir
The Adolin / Azimir arc was clearly superior. I was invested the whole way through as he is a good character and you can't help but root for him. The payoff in the end wasn't quite as grand as I would have liked. I was expecting a larger battle rather than a guerilla force and duel, but this was good enough. I really wanted him to unlock the dead eye sword and become some sort of quasi radiant and that happened.
The one thing I really thought they were setting up for in the beginning would have been icing on the cake. When Gallant was tromping around with the wind spren in Shadesmar I was hoping his horse would bond a spren as well. That would have been rad, but unfortunately (probably good for long term health) Gallant was absent from most of the book.
Szeth / Kaladin / Shinovar
I am pretty sure Szeth / Kaladin / Syl in Shinovar was my next favorite, but it is close to a tie with Sigzil. I liked getting Szeth's backstory and working through the corrupted heralds. There was some decent action but it was confounded too much by the whole therapy angle.
Sanderson: Hear me out guys, I am going to take one of the most powerful characters in the series that everyone is invested in and turn him into a shrink.
Everyone: ...
Sanderson: Oh, but wait, it gets better. He will defeat a herald.
Everyone: Oh, that's going to be awesome.
Sanderson: But not with a spear...with a flute and the power of music!
Everyone: ...
Again, with this arc, I was hoping for something to play out that...might still in the future. I really thought by Syl becoming corporeal she and Kaladin would become a thing. I think that is still in the cards potentially for the next half.
Not to mention, 'I. AM. THE. LAW'. C'mon man, Judge Dredd, really? Way to kill my immersion.
Sigzil / Venli / Shattered Plains
This arc was pretty solid for me. I called the Listener / Human tag-team pretty early in the line but enjoyed watching it play out. I thought it would play out via battle rather than diplomacy. A bit fremen / sandworm adjacent, but meh.
I am now trying to remember if I just missed Moash dying, but pretty sure he made it away. His crystal shard eye concept was neat.
Bonus points for one of the fights in the beginning. I really liked the image in my head when the wind runners flew Stormwall into the fight like a Jaeger in Pacific Rim.
Dalinar / Navai / Spiritual Realm
Just...boring? The history lesson could have been so much shorter.
Shallan
Separating Shallan from Renarin / Rlain because it was a little better but I wasn't terribly interested. When she folded Veil into her personality in the previous books it made me feel feelings. Didn't care about Ghostbloods, Mraize, etc. This time around it just wasn't very impactful.
Renarin / Rlain
This was just a component of the whole 'love will overcome' theme and it was just layered on too thick. The comment earlier of this book 'being full of boring and gay.' is exactly correct for this arc. There was no need to rub the reader's nose in it over and over and over again. These types of relationships can be written well and not be made awkward but this one was decidedly not in my opinion.
Jasnah / Thayleneh
Only thing to say here is that I didn't mind how this wrapped up. The debate battle with Odium was great. Jasnah ultimately played such a small role it was hard to get invested. It is another instance of one of the most powerful radiants in the story being wasted.
- 2