Ayn Rand

Xarpolis · May 21, 2018

AngryGerbil said:
Twice in two weeks I have been met with the contention that "She isn't worth reading because her characters aren't interesting."

All I can do in such a situation is smile bluntly and contentiously and wish that I hadn't brought the subject up to begin with.

So here, on FoH, I bring the subject up.

To criticize Atlas Shrugged because it 'lacks interesting characters' is like criticizing Star Wars because it 'lacks interesting shoes'.

It's retarded. And yet, if you were to try it for yourself you would find that almost everyone who hears this name, Ayn Rand, thinks that 'her characters lack depth'.

They can not speak to the characters, or the depth. They know only that both are lacking in some way. Some indescribable way.

I asked my brother in law last week if he had ever read The Fountainhead and he said, "parts of it."

I know that this was a lie. He has read parts of Fountainhead? Which parts exactly? What if that book was not intended to be taken in parts but as a whole?

'Parts of it' is what you say when talking about movies, not books. He was absolutely full of shit when he said he had 'read parts of it'. It was a kneejerk reaction on his part in a public setting, but it does illustrate the fact that there is an almost religious response when people hear her name, and many of them aren't even sure why this response exists.

When I was in 7th grade, my teacher assigned us to read the Fountainhead. I was a big reader at the time (Dean Koontz mostly), and I loved that book. We were supposed to do 2-3 chapters per week, but I finished the book by the first week. The teacher liked that I did it, but didn't like that I failed to write reports about each completed chapter. But she knew I was reading it, because every day she saw me, I was further and further along the story.

That book was awesome. As a result, I named my Iksar monk, Szerak Roark. Keep in mind that I'm now 36, and I CLEARLY remember Howard Roark from this book. It made me very interested in architecture.

Years later, I finally read Atlas Shrugged. Holy shit, this book was perfection. Everything I've resented about society eloquently furnished into words for my young mind to indulge. I wonder if I would ever be good enough to survive in a utopian society the way they created. Rearden Metal was awesome. I'm pretty sure it was just Stainless, but the blueish hue left me questioning (This is coming from someone that's worked in Sheet Metal Fabrication my entire working life as I read the book).

Xarpolis · May 21, 2018

BrutulTM said:
I own both a paper and an electronic copy of Atlas Shrugged but have not read either of them. I mean to one day along with a lot of other books, but I have heard Atlas Shrugged criticized by people I respect as 1000 pages of ideological propaganda and not actual art, albeit very well written. All I can say about her beyond that is that I've watched a few interviews of her about her world view and while I thought she made a lot of good points, I felt like her suggestion that it's immoral to act out of motivation for anything other than pure self interest was taking it a bit far. I do think that self interest is the best and most productive motivator, but I don't see how it's immoral to do something altruistic as long as you're not forcing others to do it as well.

This is true to a degree. The ideas behind Atlas Shrugged is that the world owed everything they had to these few great leaders. And the great leaders made EVERYTHING possible that we all love. Without them, and only them, we would be sitting around hoping something would come that could give us something to do.

In actuality, the great men/women of this country aren't typically the ones that actually do the work. They're the idea people behind the projects that everyone loves. I want something that does this! Make it! So their minions create the device in question. The head receives all the glory, while the producers receive none. That's the truth, but this book makes it out that the heads created said object from nothing.

IE - Steve Jobs could never make an iPhone. But he was the idea man that brought it all together, motivating the people that needed motivation, and produced the results. But he could never build one, or design the circuit cards and all that. Bill Gates might be a little more technical than Jobs, but I doubt he had much personal involvement with the production of Windows 98.

Control · May 22, 2018

Xarpolis said:
When I was in 7th grade, my teacher assigned us to read the Fountainhead.

I wish this were mandatory reading everywhere, but I can only imagine the uproar if a teacher tried to do that now. I'm not sure if it would have had an impact on me at that age, maybe by the late teens though. I don't read much fiction really, but the Fountainhead is one that's always stuck with me. It's sad really that Atlas gets all the attention, causing so many people to make up their minds about everything else without even trying. If anyone is considering picking either of these up, read this one first.

For everyone that hasn't bothered or who read just enough Atlas Shrugged to get annoyed, imo, the people judging as a shitty novel are sort of right, but I think they're also judging it at a job it was never meant to do. I don't know much about Ayn's politics or philosophy other than what's in these two books, but I don't think it was intended to be a "good novel". Someone before said it was propaganda, and I think that's literally true. However, I think it was fully intentional, and that it was made so heavy-handed because it was supposed to be obvious that it was. Imo, this was practically a bible for pounding the point home in people who might be amenable to the line of thinking but who weren't going to go read and debate philosophy papers. If you're on the fence, give it a chance, but think of it more as a fable than an entertaining piece of fiction. It has an agenda, and it wants to make damned sure that you don't miss it.

Having said that, I'll also mostly agree about the character criticisms. They're admittedly all pretty much caricatures, but I dare anyone to read it if they haven't yet and then look at the world today and tell me that you can't see almost every negative character almost exactly personified by some real person you'll see on the news in the next week or two. I know people always say this (and it's probably never not been true), but the parallels are literally frightening. I've stopped even being surprised by it.

AngryGerbil · May 24, 2018

I'm currently at the part in The Fountainhead when:

Roark has just rejected the life-saving final bid from the big firm, on purpose, and is now a rugged quarry worker being pursued by the princess of the land in her flowing gown on top of the hill. She is playing games with him and a large slab of very expensive marble.

It's obviously idealized and a bit ham fisted, but I still am on board with what Rand is trying to say with this character. Roark's principals are the very thing that will animate his soul, thus animate his body, thus animate the material that his body can interact with, and thus animate the society at large around him.

Actuation, Articulation, and Agency.

Feanor · May 25, 2018

Control said:
I wish this were mandatory reading everywhere, but I can only imagine the uproar if a teacher tried to do that now. I'm not sure if it would have had an impact on me at that age, maybe by the late teens though. I don't read much fiction really, but the Fountainhead is one that's always stuck with me. It's sad really that Atlas gets all the attention, causing so many people to make up their minds about everything else without even trying. If anyone is considering picking either of these up, read this one first.

For everyone that hasn't bothered or who read just enough Atlas Shrugged to get annoyed, imo, the people judging as a shitty novel are sort of right, but I think they're also judging it at a job it was never meant to do. I don't know much about Ayn's politics or philosophy other than what's in these two books, but I don't think it was intended to be a "good novel". Someone before said it was propaganda, and I think that's literally true. However, I think it was fully intentional, and that it was made so heavy-handed because it was supposed to be obvious that it was. Imo, this was practically a bible for pounding the point home in people who might be amenable to the line of thinking but who weren't going to go read and debate philosophy papers. If you're on the fence, give it a chance, but think of it more as a fable than an entertaining piece of fiction. It has an agenda, and it wants to make damned sure that you don't miss it.

Having said that, I'll also mostly agree about the character criticisms. They're admittedly all pretty much caricatures, but I dare anyone to read it if they haven't yet and then look at the world today and tell me that you can't see almost every negative character almost exactly personified by some real person you'll see on the news in the next week or two. I know people always say this (and it's probably never not been true), but the parallels are literally frightening. I've stopped even being surprised by it.

I think the opposite way. The story is fairly good while the political shit is drivel. Some folks either follow Cagney-like critics from the mid 20th century without reading and thinking for themselves or else are turned off by the antiquated structure? I dunno but it's a reasonable criticism. Atlas Shrugged is fucking awesome for a shitty 1000 pg scifi movie written in the 1950s by a Russian bitch with an axe to grind. The Fountainhead is better even.

Lunis · May 25, 2018

Ugh, her writing just never appealed to me. When you overly deregulate financial institutions they start to do very strange things; see the 2007 housing bubble.

The late Christopher Hitchens called Atlas Shrugged "transcendently awful".

Control · May 25, 2018

Lunis said:
Ugh, her writing just never appealed to me. When you overly deregulate financial institutions they start to do very strange things; see the 2007 housing bubble.

Isn't that a bit like saying, "I didn't like Jurassic Park. When you overly deregulate genetic research companies, they start to do very strange things."?

lol, ok, not exactly, but when you're trying to warn someone that they're about to drive off a cliff, you don't simultaneously say "BUT nevermind, there's a cliff 10 miles back in the other direction too!" How compelling would the book have been, if everyone got to the gulch and got handed a giant book with a list of rules and tax codes?

Lunis · May 25, 2018

I have no idea what your analogies are supposed to mean but ok.

Every Rand follower that I've seen are ultra neo-Libertarians. They want to deregulate every aspect of the economy and effectively eliminate most government institutions. Why? Because 'free markets', whatever that means. It's almost like a religious belief in my opinion where free markets can solve every imaginable economic problem, it's a magical panacea in the same way Marxists think the state can solve everything.

If you look at badly run government institutions like the DMV, yes Rand's criticisms are somewhat valid. But if you look at other things, like how the Pentagon essentially funded the R&D of computers and the internet (and only privatized after decades) it was quite successful. Economics are too complicated for a single be-all end-all solution.

Ukerric · May 25, 2018

Every time someone takes Rand's writing seriously, I bring back the standard quote

"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs."

sakkath · May 27, 2018

I've read Atlas Shrugged more than 20 years ago and will attempt to recall my thoughts on it as best I can. It was fine - I'm not a big reader and yet it kept me interested long enough to finish it. I understood the motivation of the characters and aspects of the philosophy the writer was trying to describe. While I could empathize with her portrayal of a world full of 'leaners' (as we'd call them in AU), I did decide that her world sounded fairly unpleasant and that I thought nobody was going to have any fun. I felt there were some big inconsistencies in her ideology in that one of the highly regarded characters in the utopian society was some kind of artist, but my understanding of the philosophy was that there wouldn't be any place for artists (or sports or any other non "producer"). I felt that the author had put the artist (was it a musician? I can't remember any more) in there was to add some life (or fun) to her utopia and it weakened the message a little.

I've also read parts of The Fountainhead - something which is apparently worthy of derision. I got about 30 pages into it before I stopped as it didn't grab me. This is not something unique to that book though, there's dozens that I've started and not finished.

Titan_Atlas · May 27, 2018

Angry, most people don't read her because they form an opinion based on social interactions. Her philosophy was flawed as a brilliant non intellectual would have. Conservatives didn't like her, nor did Liberals, because she was truly a Libertarian. Educated elites didn't like her because Progressivism/Communism was rampant then as it is now, just more in the shadows. Atlas Shrugged is a great philosophical fiction book, likely one of the better ones written, and as Khorum pointed out Fountainhead was just a very good novel about individualism. She was tarred and feathered for her flaws as an intellectual, and as a person. She alienated many people with very selfish and moralistic behavior, for a devout atheist. She also outted a ton of people during the HUAC and since Hollywood was actually quite full of fucking Commies she pissed them off. She was a very successful woman long before mainstream Feminism and had no problem dealing with white males, so she had no friends their. Did you know the average person reads at a 7th grade level, Stephen King writes at one pretty cool huh? She is worth a read by anyone, she opened up many people's thoughts who have been indoctrinated in our school system, for that I personally will always value her.

Brando · May 27, 2018

The fact that there's a thread for this fucking schlock tells you all you need to know about the forums these days. Her philosophies are almost the height of immoralism but since she was probably a closet Soviet that would make sense. Anybody that believes half this shit if a fucking retard and should be gassed.

khorum · May 27, 2018

Brando said:
The fact that there's a thread for this fucking schlock tells you all you need to know about the forums these days. Her philosophies are almost the height of immoralism but since she was probably a closet Soviet that would make sense. Anybody that believes half this shit if a fucking retard and should be gassed.

You're aware she ESCAPED soviet communism right? Decades before Solzhenitsyn.

I bet you're gonna be one of those dishonest folks who claim they've "Totally read it".

Ukerric · May 28, 2018

Brando said:
Her philosophies are almost the height of immoralism but since she was probably a closet Soviet that would make sense.

If anything else, it's that her rabid anti-communism and hatred of all things Soviet is what made her write that novel. If anything, it's because of that background that she couldn't keep it at reasonable and believable levels and went all full fantasy.

wormie · May 28, 2018

Brando once again proves that he knows nothing.

Arbitrary · May 28, 2018

I haven't read the book but I heard that in it Wisconsin returns to a state of pre-industrial barbarism once industry leaves.

When the auto plants all closed up shop in the 70s/80s we managed to get by without burning logs in old electric stoves. Rand refuted.

khorum · May 28, 2018

Arbitrary said:
I haven't read the book but I heard that in it Wisconsin returns to a state of pre-industrial barbarism once industry leaves.

When the auto plants all closed up shop in the 70s/80s we managed to get by without burning logs in old electric stoves. Rand refuted.

Nah it was Michigan.

And nah she wasn't refuted.

What's remarkable is she wrote that in the 50s---at the HEIGHT of Detroit's industrial might. That's like writing to Queen Victoria in 1845 that her great-grandkids would be presiding over the abdication of the Magna Carta to Sharia law.

Arbitrary · May 28, 2018

Oh, the friend who had read it dismembered one Midwestern state for another when he was telling me about some goofy scene or another. It was Michigan she wrote about. Michigan.

Michigan.

wormie · May 28, 2018

Looks like dreams do come true:

Zack Snyder says next project is an adaptation of Ayn Rand’s Fountainhead

kaid · Jun 6, 2018

A grimdark rendition of an ayn rand novel how could this possibly go wrong.

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