Bitcoins/Litecoins/Virtual Currencies

Flobee said:

You could compare them to art sure, but how do they correspond to land?

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Don't compare them to art at all is the first part, they're still cryptocurrencies. I'm not quite sure how to put into words how you develop a digital landscape yet, pretty much everyone is still trying to figure it out, but you're on the Fires of Heaven message board and not the Legacy of Steel or IGN message boards so there should be some familiarity with the concept. Like you understand that fungible tokens can still be scarce, but the only thing differentiating token holders is the amount that they hold. Non-fungible token holders are differentiated by their position within the collection, with each token representing a set of marketable attributes that may be under or over priced at any given time.

LachiusTZ said:

This is the dumbest shit you have ever said

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Flobee said:

It seems like the beanie baby craze, or Pogs or something. Until something is created that utilizes these NFTs to provide genuine value they seem like nothing more than on-chain URLs.

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I mean, if NFTs are forever relegated to being toys (I very highly doubt it) that's still a pretty fuckin huge global market cap. What NFTs are currently are an identity, a position, a meme, and value all rolled up into a token.

James said:

Don't compare them to art at all is the first part, they're still cryptocurrencies. I'm not quite sure how to put into words how you develop a digital landscape yet, pretty much everyone is still trying to figure it out, but you're on the Fires of Heaven message board and not the Legacy of Steel or IGN message boards so there should be some familiarity with the concept. Like you understand that fungible tokens can still be scarce, but the only thing differentiating token holders is the amount that they hold. Non-fungible token holders are differentiated by their position within the collection, with each token representing a set of marketable attributes that may be under or over priced at any given time.

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I understand the difference between fungible and non-fungible. Non-fungible would be unique. If you can't quantify why it is valuable, then why do you think its valuable? Just because something is unique doesn't make it valuable on its own. I understand how it -could- be valuable, like I said the tech has a ton of potential. What I'm failing to grasp is why a Cryptopunk or ETH rock, or whatever they're called, holds any value other than pure speculation around future value in an ecosystem that doesn't even exist yet?

It seems like speculative asset built on top of a speculative system. I'm not saying it -can't- have value, I just don't understand how it has value today. No argument that people are aping into them though.

Flobee said:

What I'm failing to grasp is why a Cryptopunk or ETH rock, or whatever they're called, holds any value other than pure speculation around future value in an ecosystem that doesn't even exist yet?

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And still you buy Bitcoin!

EDIT: Also, Visa buying an NFT sort of legitimizes the whole ecosystem that does currently exist.

James said:

And still you buy Bitcoin!

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I understand the value proposition behind the Bitcoin network and why its scarce asset holds value. I also understand how ETH has value, I don't understand Cryptopunks or ETH rocks though. I'm not sure that anyone does other than recognizing that its cryptokitties 2.0 and they can fleece dummies on them. I'd be curious to know why thats wrong tho

To be clear, I'm not talking about NFTs in general, I mean these specific NFTs

EDIT: There is a lot more corporate buy in to the Bitcoin network than just Visa buying some, but that doesn't legitimize it in your mind. Not sure why you'd expect any thing different from an opposing viewpoint. Its good for Cryptopunk price I imagine, but it doesn't mean much more than that.

Yeah, those Visa dummies sure are getting fleeced, you think they're this generation's Yahoo or something? Could be, I suppose, but my theory is that these specific collections have value and will continue to accrue value as time goes on because they are a non-fungible store of value like land.

James said:

Yeah, those Visa dummies sure are getting fleeced, you think they're this generation's Yahoo or something? Could be, I suppose, but my theory is that these specific collections have value and will continue to accrue value as time goes on because they are a non-fungible store of value like land.

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That's fair. It does seem like its a purely speculative bet on a future usecase though. Depends on future projects implementing a use for what will likely be legacy NFTs. Its certainly possible maybe even likely given who owns them and who is likely to develop future projects on Ethereum. Its not a productive asset however so land comparison seems to fall flat until such a productive use exists.

Flobee said:

Its not a productive asset

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It produces identity.

Flobee said:

EDIT: There is a lot more corporate buy in to the Bitcoin network than just Visa buying some, but that doesn't legitimize it in your mind.

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You don't understand, I think memes are perfectly legitimate investment that can produce decades of great returns, and Bitcoin is a great meme at this point but not much beyond that. Real global financial market disruption will be wrought by Ethereum.

Flobee said:

That's fair. It does seem like its a purely speculative bet on a future usecase though. Depends on future projects implementing a use for what will likely be legacy NFTs. Its certainly possible maybe even likely given who owns them and who is likely to develop future projects on Ethereum. Its not a productive asset however so land comparison seems to fall flat until such a productive use exists.

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It IS a purely speculative bet on a future use case. And that answers your question as to why it means more than just being a boon for cryptopunk values. It's a further indication that Visa sees DeFi and Ethereum as having a huge role in the future of finance. Read their tweet- they see their acquisition of the cryptopunk in the same light as they see numerous other significant historical steps in the evolution of finance. This is Visa saying "Hey guys, we really think that Ethereum and Defi are going to play a huge role in the future of finance, and we want a piece of that history..."

Not to overstate it's significance, but it's really fucking significant.

Yeah, read this full article from the tweet and it's basically Visa telling you to take all the non-productive asset talk and shove it up your ass:

James said:

You don't understand, I think memes are perfectly legitimate investment that can produce decades of great returns, and Bitcoin is a great meme at this point but not much beyond that. Real global financial market disruption will be wrought by Ethereum.

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Agreed to the point that one of us is investing in a meme and that meme will continue to accrue USD value, until it doesn't. I do think that Defi is the future, digital identity will be verified via blockchain (this may end up being rather dystopian depending on implementation), and traditional finance will be disrupted relatively soon.

I do think its interesting that Visa buying a Cryptopunk is a big deal, but $73 billion in publicly disclosed BTC holdings by corporations + countries isn't. I have 0 doubt that companies will ape into Ethereum as well as Bitcoin and likely many other projects as they flee the collapsing traditional system. I believe this for reasons outside of Visa buying a punk though. I am satisfied by the answer that the punks represent a digital identity that may be leveraged in future systems. Not something I'd be willing to buy, but I get it. Just figured maybe there was more to it.


RE: Visa post

Yea... so they bought it to signal that NFTs will be interesting tech in the future and so that they could understand them better. The punks themselves aren't really valuable, its the potential behind NFTs that holds value. I totally agree with the sentiment, but I wouldn't be buying a punk hoping it worth millions in the future. Maybe it will be but, eh, doesn't have to be. It doesn't do anything in any current system.

Flobee said:

I do think its interesting that Visa buying a Cryptopunk is a big deal, but $73 billion in publicly disclosed BTC holdings by corporations + countries isn't.

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The tech behind NFTs is much more interesting than the tech behind Bitcoin, they actually have a chance at subverting centralized finance while Bitcoin will always be just a cryptomeme like Cryptopunks.

James said:

The tech behind NFTs is much more interesting than the tech behind Bitcoin, they actually have a chance at subverting centralized finance while Bitcoin will always be just a cryptomeme like Cryptopunks.

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NFTs are not ETH specific. ERC-721 is an Ethereum standard but NFT as a concept predates Ethereum as a network. Colored coins on the Bitcoin network were the first NFTs which led Vitalik to create Ethereum in the first place. NFTs are for sure interesting, but lets not pretend that they are exclusive to Ethereum or can't work on Bitcoin or any other chain.

That being said Ethereum very clearly owns the current iteration of NFTs

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Worthwhile overview on NFT history for anyone interested

Flobee said:

That being said Ethereum very clearly owns the current iteration of NFTs

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And all future iterations of NFTs which will be inseparable from Ethereum as adoption and awareness of them increases.

Kiroy said:

a company did an action that got it a shit ton of free press

i'm pro nft, but thinking this is anything more than a young pr guy making a good move is silly

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This is true... If you ignore all the other evidence that Visa has given that they are pro ethereum and pro defi.

Many corporations will buy into Ethereum. Microsoft's Digital Identity project runs on Ethereum and will quite possibly be attached to you via CBDC some day. I see that this is bullish for Ethereum, bad for humanity. Number go up, freedom go down.

Good list of NFT projects to research: