Bitcoins/Litecoins/Virtual Currencies

Kirun

Kirun

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Arden said:
So funny, you're practically quoting Lyn Alden's broken money theory here. You just haven't made the last step to understanding why (based on what you yourself have said) btc is a superior store of value.

To be fair it take some really smart people a long time to come around, but almost everyone eventually does
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I'm not confused about the argument, you're just skipping the part where it actually has to work in the real economy.

Yes, Bitcoin is a strong self-custodied store of value. Correct. Yes, that aligns with Alden's ledger framing. Also correct.

Being a store of value does not automatically make something the settlement layer or unit of account. Gold stayed valuable long after it stopped being money. Bitcoin can do the exact same thing. You're treating store of value as if it automatically becomes the unit of account and settlement layer. That is not how monetary transitions work.

You're not "understanding the final step." You're assuming the conclusion. Calling it "everyone gets there eventually" isn't an argument - it's an admission you don't have the mechanism for the transition, just the narrative. Bitcoin doesn't need mysticism or inevitability rhetoric. It needs adoption in contracts, tax settlement, and pricing systems before it becomes money in the economic sense.

Until then: Bitcoin is a good savings asset.
 
Arden

Arden

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Kirun said:
I'm not confused about the argument, you're just skipping the part where it actually has to work in the real economy.

Yes, Bitcoin is a strong self-custodied store of value. Correct. Yes, that aligns with Alden's ledger framing. Also correct.

Being a store of value does not automatically make something the settlement layer or unit of account. Gold stayed valuable long after it stopped being money. Bitcoin can do the exact same thing. You're treating store of value as if it automatically becomes the unit of account and settlement layer. That is not how monetary transitions work.

You're not "understanding the final step." You're assuming the conclusion. Calling it "everyone gets there eventually" isn't an argument - it's an admission you don't have the mechanism for the transition, just the narrative. Bitcoin doesn't need mysticism or inevitability rhetoric. It needs adoption in contracts, tax settlement, and pricing systems before it becomes money in the economic sense.

Until then: Bitcoin is a good savings asset.
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Tell chat gpt to make its answers more concise 😄
 
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Kirun

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If the best rebuttal you've got is "you wrote too clearly so you must be a bot," then you’re already out of ammo. 😆

When your conclusion is treated as self-evident and dissent is framed as "you’ll get there one day," you've stopped defending the claim and started protecting a belief - typical of most BTC cult adherents . I'm talking about how money functions now. You're talking about how you want it to function. Those are not the same conversation.
 
Arden

Arden

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Kirun said:
If the best rebuttal you've got is "you wrote too clearly so you must be a bot," then you’re already out of ammo. 😆

When your conclusion is treated as self-evident and dissent is framed as "you’ll get there one day," you've stopped defending the claim and started protecting a belief - typical of most BTC cult adherents . I'm talking about how money functions now. You're talking about how you want it to function. Those are not the same conversation.
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Just giving you a hard time.

Besides, I'm just happy we got you to acknowledge that BTC is a superior store of value. Frankly, that's as far as I'm willing to go myself. I've said on here many times I'm not sure that BTC is ever going to be "everyday money"- but I don't think it needs to be to be an excellent investment.
 
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Dalren

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Only BTC maxis think Bitcoin will be the everyday money. It never will. There are far better avenues for that. Hell, Stablecoins are better. Digital gold for now is a better comparison. Could it outshine Gold? Maybe, has a long way to go and far more large scale adoption is needed to get there though. It is better than Gold in everyway though from a use case and audit perspective.
 
Haus

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Control said:
Sorry, parachuting, but why does bitcoin need to be money?
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Bitcoin Per Se doesn't need to be money. But in general many people believe (and I am one of them) that some form of currency which is outside the ability of any government to manipulate/debase it is needed. Also a non-governmental controlled money would give many people more financial freedom and lessen the hold of government over people, which is something I also find pleasing.

That could be BTC, or it could be any number of other good crypto currencies that are better suited for small/fast transaction settlement.
 
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Flobee

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Control said:
Sorry, parachuting, but why does bitcoin need to be money?
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Because a digital money that is bearer in nature (no counter-party), settles instantly*, requires zero trust, is limited in supply, and completely un-censorable is a revolution in monetary technology. The digital gold narrative is true and useful, but is only Gresham's Law playing out. Square just enabled Bitcoin payments for ~4 million merchants. Watch what happens as these small businesses realize they can accept Bitcoin and completely avoid the 3% CC fees, remove chargeback risks etc.



*Instant settlement via Lightning payments for layer 2, layer 1 has instant mempool verification with ~10 minute final settlement assuming fees are sufficient. This is a 10x improvement over current monetary systems as final settlement takes days generally.
 
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Sanrith Descartes

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Flobee said:
Because a digital money that is bearer in nature (no counter-party), settles instantly*, requires zero trust, is limited in supply, and completely un-censorable is a revolution in monetary technology. The digital gold narrative is true and useful, but is only Gresham's Law playing out. Square just enabled Bitcoin payments for ~4 million merchants. Watch what happens as these small businesses realize they can accept Bitcoin and completely avoid the 3% CC fees, remove chargeback risks etc.



*Instant settlement via Lightning payments for layer 2, layer 1 has instant mempool verification with ~10 minute final settlement assuming fees are sufficient. This is a 10x improvement over current monetary systems as final settlement takes days generally.
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And then Jack will blackball anyone who is a conservative from using it.
 
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Flobee

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Sanrith Descartes said:
I guess you don't know much about Jack Dorsey. Square isn't his real claim to fame. Nevermind though, it doesn't belong in this thread.
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Right. I know he's a lefty, funded Yang etc. just trying to figure out what you're insinuating. Filtering Square POS users by political affiliation and what? Denying them the ability to use Bitcoin payments? Blocking them from using Square?

Live in a rural area, deal with a lot of small businesses, a lot of them use Square for PoS and these aren't lefties.

If this was just a "I don't like Jack" statement then sure, don't necessarily disagree, but irrelevant.
 
Control

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Flobee said:
Because a digital money that is bearer in nature (no counter-party), settles instantly*, requires zero trust, is limited in supply, and completely un-censorable is a revolution in monetary technology. The digital gold narrative is true and useful, but is only Gresham's Law playing out. Square just enabled Bitcoin payments for ~4 million merchants. Watch what happens as these small businesses realize they can accept Bitcoin and completely avoid the 3% CC fees, remove chargeback risks etc.



*Instant settlement via Lightning payments for layer 2, layer 1 has instant mempool verification with ~10 minute final settlement assuming fees are sufficient. This is a 10x improvement over current monetary systems as final settlement takes days generally.
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Well sure, being money is good. When I see people bitch about bitcoin though, it's always about how it's shitty at being money. But lots of things can be money, and those things change over time (somewhat). There aren't that many things that are digital gold though. "Being money" doesn't seem like bitcoin's primary use, and I don't think "not being money" is really much of a negative. It feels like the arguments end up boiling down to "well fuck Ferraris, don't you know how shitty their cupholder situation is?! what use is something that's so bad at safely transporting large numbers of big-gulps!!?"
 
Flobee

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Control said:
Well sure, being money is good. When I see people bitch about bitcoin though, it's always about how it's shitty at being money. But lots of things can be money, and those things change over time (somewhat). There aren't that many things that are digital gold though. "Being money" doesn't seem like bitcoin's primary use, and I don't think "not being money" is really much of a negative. It feels like the arguments end up boiling down to "well fuck Ferraris, don't you know how shitty their cupholder situation is?! what use is something that's so bad at safely transporting large numbers of big-gulps!!?"
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Most of the arguments about it being bad money are misinformed or lacking full context of what Bitcoin is capable of today. IMO if Bitcoin only succeeds as "digital gold" it will have failed its purpose which is to seize back control of the monetary system by "some sly or roundabout way".

Granted in that scenario Bitcoiners would be depressed... But rich. So that's one of my "worst case scenarios" personally

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Arden

Arden

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sliverstorm said:
Every argument I hear for Bitcoin just sounds like an argument for Bitcoin Cash.
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Yeah, but the thing is, Bitcoin Cash isn't Bitcoin. It's not any more bitcoin than, say, Ethereum is. Since 2017, it’s been a separate blockchain with its own rules, miners, nodes, and ledger.

I get why you would want to use something other than Bitcoin for every day monetary transactions, but if you are going to use something other than bitcoin, there are way better options than Bitcoin Cash (including Bitcoin itself with Lightning).
 
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Flobee

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SoFi becomes the first chartered bank to allow buy/sell/custody of Bitcoin in an FDIC insured account ($2m). They will not be the last. The CEO specifically said that Bitcoin will be in your bank to act as a savings account ("Putting your money to work"). Expect this kind of thing to expand. If you're bearish on this you're not paying attention IMO and I'm not even saying this is a good thing, just inevitable. I expect Bitcoin to be part of everyone's bank account by 2030 easy

 
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Khane

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I can see this being a positive for people that actually want to actively trade bitcoin or just DCA into actual bitcoin, however, are the other, established crypto trading platforms/exchanges still dubious and insecure? In other words, is there any real, actual benefit for someone who understands BTC doing this over holding their own wallet and trading on one of those other platforms?

BTC in your bank! sound great but it probably translates to "We'll hold your keys for you!" with no mention of if thats via hot wallet or frequent updates to a cold wallet or... "We'll be the custodian of your BTC!".

Am I missing something?
 
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