Blizzard dies and Bobby rides

Kirun

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The feeling going around at the time was that in order to make loot valuable, it had to be extremely rare. Such that if you wanted good gear, you weren't expecting to get it on your character, but that you'd have to get something valuable and flip it on the AH to buy stuff that was good for you or just grind money / drop real money on it.

I don't know how close to reality that ended up being because I was never a big D2/D3 person, but I know the feeling in my friend groups was that everyone felt kind of like plebs not getting anything good and that instead of playing the game to get good shit/fun drops, you'd have to just buy it from someone else. REAL FUN EXPERIENCE in a looter.
The AH wasn't the problem in D3. The AH is what got blamed for them not having a real "end-game" and inferno being an unbalanced shitshow. As someone who made around $400 on the RMAH, the AH was perfectly fine and would've been fantastic if they hadn't designed inferno levels so poorly.
 
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Mist

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As someone who made around $400 on the RMAH
Animated GIF
 
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Evernothing

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When I played EQ, wow launched during gates. There wasn't a high end raiding guild in everquest that wasn't losing people to WOW drain during gates and hearing the hype. Say what you want about the shithole that was gates, but care bear is about as far from accurate a description as you can get. Omens in particular felt care bear because of how nut-slamming gates was.


I think the truth is a more nuanced approach. The general gameplay in wow was more care bear and forgiving for the masses, but there was definitely very hard challenges for those that were looking for them. It was much better made in comparison to EQ's incompetence. Wow had a bit more at both ends, to bring the unwashed masses in and then have them aim to aspire to things. Wow over time just became way too formulaic and lost a lot of its life.
Can I borrow your time machine?

Omens of War release date: Sept. 14, 2004
WoW release date: Nov 23, 2004
 

Kirun

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Yeah Mist paid off 2 mortgages. Get on her level.
Jokes on her if she's stupid enough to think I did it to "get rich". It was a way to passively make money playing a game I would've played regardless. And at the time, most auctions were earning you 2-10c each. It was used as an anecdote to demonstrate I fucked with the RMAH a LOT in D3 and it wasn't the problem. The endgame was. The AH just made for an easy target because of "OMG P2W!!!!!!!!!!!!".
 

Furry

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Can I borrow your time machine?

Omens of War release date: Sept. 14, 2004
WoW release date: Nov 23, 2004

Literally everyone was in the beta who wanted it. Going by actual release means you were probably not a serious EQ player.
 
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Evernothing

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You didn't say beta in the post I quoted. You said "wow launched during gates".
 
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Malakriss

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So many people bailed when they announced GoD focuses would be scaled in OoW above level 65. Slap in the face to everyone who made it through broken Uqua.

Everyone went straight into WoW.
 
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Fadaar

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And anyone that thinks Activision isn't the biggest part of problem didn't play Destiny 2. Destiny 2 was fucking horrible when Activision was calling the shots and has been so much better since Bungie was let go on their own.

100%. Shadowkeep was pretty ass but BL and more importantly the seasonal content has been $$.
 

Elidroth

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So many people bailed when they announced GoD focuses would be scaled in OoW above level 65. Slap in the face to everyone who made it through broken Uqua.

Everyone went straight into WoW.

That wasn't the only reason though.. WoW was going to be serious competition for EQ at that moment in time regardless, and then the EQ team SERIOUSLY dropped the ball at the worst possible time. Also, Uqua was Salius's zone, and he quit SOE and went to Sigil just as he was supposed to tune the zone in beta. So yeah, it went out broke as fuck with nobody around who knew how to fix it.
 
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Lendarios

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To be factually clear—Omens launched like September of 2004, WoW launched like the last week of November 2004. Gates was not the current expansion when WoW launched.

I'm just pushing back against a common narrative that WoW made MMOs "carebear", often again, something stated by early EQ players with little modern MMO experience. The things most people identify as being "carebear" in WoW, were already implemented in EQ by the time WoW launched--instanced raiding, less severe death penalty, easier leveling etc. If you ever leveled an alt up to max level (I remember half power leveling / half twinking a Mage up during GoD era because I was in college and had quit raiding), it was like literally ten times easier and faster than going 1-60 was in the "old" EQ days.

GoD also was not mechanically difficult. Like if you actually have done that content in recent memory the vast majority of the bosses have one or two, very simple mechanics. GOD was procedurally difficult for two reasons--reason one is mob damage tables that clearly were made for level 70 raid geared tanks. Gates was originally intended to launch as a new level increase, level 70 expansion. Then they moved something like half the team working on it to SWG, and the development got bogged down and they weren't going to release it in time. So they pared the content down and released like half of what was intended, as a level 65 expansion, but inexplicably didn't retune a lot of the content. There's actually an interview with someone, maybe Holly? That goes into details about the various ills around the development/launch of Gates. The second reason Gates was hard is due to something I already mentioned--buggy or broken encounter design. For example Uqua which was considered a nightmare in its original iteration, had bugs where mobs could attack you through the zone geometry and you couldn't hit them back, and whenever you die in Uqua you spawn a ghost add (that hits hard), those adds pile up and you wipe.

That's not hard in the way that say, a mechanically complex fight is hard, that's hard in the way that "hey I made a really bad game you shouldn't play, but if you do play it, it's broken and doesn't work well" is hard.

GoD the expansion as a player was hard, very hard. Tipt ate tanks, and you have to have a mountain pooka charmed in order to have a chance at winning it. The mastrug did so much dps. And all the end raid game zones were hard to navigate and buggy.

It makes no difference from the perspective of a player what the reason for this is.
 
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Sieger

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I didn't say GoD wasn't hard, I said it wasn't mechanically hard. "Bosses do more damage in a round than I have HP" isn't a mechanical difficulty. Most GoD bosses had like one mechanic, which was an upgrade over the 0 mechanics most PoP and Luclin bosses had, especially if we take mechanic to mean something like "an ability that requires some form of player response" vs "passive unavoidable AE damage which increase gear needed to defeat an encounter but don't alter player behavior at all."

Tunat was a big exception, back in era when you couldn't just omega DPS him down, he had like 7 phases and was a nightmare, but he also was never beaten in era AFAIK, people had to come back and beat him with +5 levels and Omens gear.

Omens is kind of the first expansion where basically all the raids have actual mechanics. Most of them weren't crazy hard compared to what WoW was doing in zones like BWL and AQ40, but they were way harder than earlier era EQ. Omens was actually a pretty tough raid expansion in its original form, TLPers don't really experience it because of the massive DPS boost out of era AAs and damage tables give TLPers, and DPS that's like 6x higher than what the best guild would've had back in level 70, unsurprisingly ends up making all the fights a joke.
 

Furry

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GoD was terrible to play as a tank. In the raids there was plenty of trash mobs that could come in and just nut kick you to death in an instant. It felt very bad in era.
 
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jayrebb

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GoD the expansion as a player was hard, very hard. Tipt ate tanks, and you have to have a mountain pooka charmed in order to have a chance at winning it. The mastrug did so much dps. And all the end raid game zones were hard to navigate and buggy.

It makes no difference from the perspective of a player what the reason for this is.

the wat? that shit aint got no names. tipt this mastqruq that, wiffle ball bat.

the fuckin insult to the community
 
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Hateyou

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To be factually clear—Omens launched like September of 2004, WoW launched like the last week of November 2004. Gates was not the current expansion when WoW launched.

I'm just pushing back against a common narrative that WoW made MMOs "carebear", often again, something stated by early EQ players with little modern MMO experience. The things most people identify as being "carebear" in WoW, were already implemented in EQ by the time WoW launched--instanced raiding, less severe death penalty, easier leveling etc. If you ever leveled an alt up to max level (I remember half power leveling / half twinking a Mage up during GoD era because I was in college and had quit raiding), it was like literally ten times easier and faster than going 1-60 was in the "old" EQ days.

GoD also was not mechanically difficult. Like if you actually have done that content in recent memory the vast majority of the bosses have one or two, very simple mechanics. GOD was procedurally difficult for two reasons--reason one is mob damage tables that clearly were made for level 70 raid geared tanks. Gates was originally intended to launch as a new level increase, level 70 expansion. Then they moved something like half the team working on it to SWG, and the development got bogged down and they weren't going to release it in time. So they pared the content down and released like half of what was intended, as a level 65 expansion, but inexplicably didn't retune a lot of the content. There's actually an interview with someone, maybe Holly? That goes into details about the various ills around the development/launch of Gates. The second reason Gates was hard is due to something I already mentioned--buggy or broken encounter design. For example Uqua which was considered a nightmare in its original iteration, had bugs where mobs could attack you through the zone geometry and you couldn't hit them back, and whenever you die in Uqua you spawn a ghost add (that hits hard), those adds pile up and you wipe.

That's not hard in the way that say, a mechanically complex fight is hard, that's hard in the way that "hey I made a really bad game you shouldn't play, but if you do play it, it's broken and doesn't work well" is hard.
Yeah I remember this shit. Gates was when I, and a lot of people, quit. WoW wasn’t out yet but there were a lot of people in the beta and the beta was so fun by comparison to Gates obviously broken (due to being tuned to level 70) that everyone just started bleeding members. They had decided as soon as WoW launched they were going to quit anyway so just bailed early. I remember thinking about how fucking dumb SOE had to be to release a level 70 expansion before they let you be 70. People were still sour over Rathe and LDoN grinding. It was one bad decision after another at precisely the wrong time.

I remember talking to a guildy who was in the beta about WoW. Told him it looked like a gay cartoon and he said he agreed but it was hard to describe playing a game where there were no bugs , low downtime, and everything just worked like it was supposed to.
 
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Evernothing

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The open beta was august, and that sealed the fate of EQ. So it did 'release', or get more people to check it out during gates.
The WoW Open Beta was November 8th 2004.

I will concede that there was a Closed Beta Stress Test on September 7th 2004, which was still during GoD.

But the point still stands. World of Warcraft did not 'launch' or 'release' during GoD.


1628868555128.png
 
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Elderan

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The WoW Open Beta was November 8th 2004.

I will concede that there was a Closed Beta Stress Test on September 7th 2004, which was still during GoD.

But the point still stands. World of Warcraft did not 'launch' or 'release' during GoD.

I do remember playing the friends and family alpha like a year before release so 2003. I want to say around November. There were a few phases to friends and family alpha if I recall though.