Bloodborne

Sir Funk_sl said:

It's crazy to look at the stream viewer counts for Bloodborne compared to the Souls games. DS2 still gets way more viewers than BB has even when you take away the mega streamers' numbers. It's pretty clear that BB is not on the same level as the Souls games.

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But as someone who doesn't give a fuck about watching other people play games, I'd say Bloodborne is on a level far above Dark Souls. Admittedly, a big part of that is my preference for the gothic-Victorian style setting that's almost more horror than fantasy as opposed to ... whatever you want to label Souls' world as.

Re: Build diversity, I think that goes both ways. BB is limited in its builds but it also cut out things that people use to cheese their way through the game. I don't miss offensive magic or shields one bit. I would also argue that BB has just as manygoodweapons as either Dark Souls.


Still consider Demon's Souls the best though.

I'll agree re the lack of build diversity. I appreciate them willingly (and successfully, unlike Final Fantasy) significantly altering the flow of a coveted series, and it's cool and all that it discourages turtling, but it left me with no desire to continue after I beat the game.

I had maybe 5 hours of work to do to get the platinum, and I just didn't want to deal with it. That's when I realized that this game, killer as it is (and it's in my all-time top 10 or 15), isn't the equal of any of the Souls games. It goes beyond the lack of build diversity, though - and it also goes beyond the second-rate pvp/co-op system too.

Bloodborne's capital failure is its aesthetic. I've said before that I just don't dig the setting and I was immediately rebuffed, but I still don't like it. The level design - gameplay-wise - sometimes rivals Dark Souls 1, which is a statement I never thought I'd ever make about any game. It's also almost peerless artistically. The problem - and please spare me the "but thisisn'ta Souls game" rejoinder - is that the key to these games for me is the sense of a private struggle to survive that the devs of the souls games made very clear afflicted every single player and npc in the preceding Souls games - for instance, that bizarre solidarity when you sit down at a bonfire and see the ghostly outline of another adventurer sitting across from you.

It's... I dunno. I've deleted dozens of paragraphs worth of failed attempts over the years at explaining what I mean here when I try to expound upon the greatness of this series. Some are scrapped because they sound too much like a New York Times or Harper's Magazine review - pretentious, hyper-analytical, etc - and sometimes it's just too vague or metaphysical. I had a quick go at it earlier in the thread if any of this is resonating. If now - well, no worries. I'm done =p

edit: err, actually the post I'm referring to is in the Dark Souls II thread.

Vorph_sl said:

But as someone who doesn't give a fuck about watching other people play games, I'd say Bloodborne is on a level far above Dark Souls. Admittedly, a big part of that is my preference for the gothic-Victorian style setting that's almost more horror than fantasy as opposed to ... whatever you want to label Souls' world as.

Re: Build diversity, I think that goes both ways. BB is limited in its builds but it also cut out things that people use to cheese their way through the game. I don't miss offensive magic or shields one bit. I would also argue that BB has just as manygoodweapons as either Dark Souls.

Still consider Demon's Souls the best though.

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Bloodborne is a 'Vertical Slice' of the Souls genre of games. The reduction in build options is a design choice that is intended to accomplish the following:

1.) Onboard new players into the Souls series without overwhelming them with choices. (See: Hick's Law -Hick?s Law Module)
2.) Teach all players to master the basics of the combat that were often overshadowed in other Souls games. I am personally much better at Parrying, using combos, and using rolling/lunging/jumping attacks than I was in the past.
3.) Create a more balanced, purposeful, and focused play through by removing balance variables and the wild balance discrepancies from previous souls games.

The spill over will be a more balanced Dark Souls 3.

Darph_sl said:

The spill over will be a more balanced Dark Souls 3.

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Bloodborne 2 or King's Field V plz~


I do agree with the rest though. It's just that to me the things that were "sliced" off have no value. Streamlining isn't always a bad thing.

Dandai_sl said:

Feel free to expound on your opinion and put it in a spoiler. I'm curious what your take on the game is since I found it to be superior in gameplay to both DS1 and DS2. The Lovecraft theme doesn't do much for me, but I was shocked to read that you felt they failed in the aesthetic.

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My claim that the game failed on an aesthetic level was misleading because Bloodborne's atmosphere compares favorably to the worlds in all of gaming - even Bioshock and Bioshock Infinity. That area near the beginning with the patrolling crazies and the even-craziers acting crazily at the fire blew me away. But Souls games can't be considered complete (imho) without their original setting.

This is the post I was referring to, with grammatical fixes:

The game is amazing, but I hope that what comes after is another Souls game. The Victorian setting would have bee a standout in any other game, but the world of the Souls games had - I really struggle to put words to it - a sort of cruel beauty and brutish serenity to them that I find matchless. It's really the only truly medieval world I can think of in a game - you're born into wreckage and can't help but wonder what made a ruin of the world; the world's inhabitants are thereby fixated on the past and present rather a hopeful future, and the games made damn sure that you were aware that all other players and NPCs were born into the same struggle. I'm sure there was some explanation provided in those games, but I didn't want it - I just want more of that setting!

End quote.

I'm really not prone to giving a flying fuck about such things in other games, but the Souls world for me is the difference between a masterpiece (Bloodborne) and a game for the ages (all three Souls games).

Well said

Phazael_sl said:

seriously out of control twitch combat that only Asians and weeaboos sucking down red bulls can fully enjoy

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I'm 44 years old, long past my prime days of twitch reactions, not Asian, and barely even drink caffeine at all anymore; I fully enjoy BB combat just fine, and find it vastly superior to either Dark Souls combat. Demon's Souls is still a toss up for me, because I loved dual wielding BBS+Moon Uchigatana. Can't agree with the part about cheap deaths either--DkS2's pivot attack tracking bullshit is vastly more cheap than anything any enemy in BB does.

Not sure what you mean by grinding either. The only grinding I did was long past the point where my build was technically done. I raised other stats just to try out different weapons rather than commit a whole new playthrough to them. Literally the only thing grindy about the game is farming chunks, and even that is only necessary if you want more than 3 weapons raised to +9. Bloodborne can be beaten at level 4 just as the Souls games can be beaten at SL1, so no, grinding is not the only or even preferred solution to beating tough fights.

There's less discussion here about BB because it's PS4 only and there's still a sizable faction that refuses to have anything to do with consoles. There's less BB on Twitch because online matchmaking doesn't work very well and the PVP crowd mostly stuck with Dark Souls 2. I wish there was no online anything in From's games at all, so that doesn't bother me in the slightest.

Finally, Ludwig is a great weapon, but I wouldn't even put the axe in the top 5. Spin2win is cool when you first start out, and it's powerful before you start upgrading, but there's far better weapons out there in the long run.

Phazael_sl said:

Deaths are extremely cheap in this game, compared to the Souls series and its way grindier. More often than not, a tough fight is solved by grinding, wheras in Souls changing gear or tactics could tip the balance.

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I can only think of two bosses in the entire game that have attacks that feel cheap. Ebrietas' star spell, and the swinging chains from the Undead Giant in chalice dungeons. However they're both completely manageable once you know and don't require twitching but patience.

If you think you need to grind for anything in BB you are bad. If you think grinding in BB is hard at all, you are bad. If you think grinding in BB is worse than any previous game, you are delusional. There is almost no reason to ever grind unless you just want to fill your storage with 99 blood vials or other items. Even then it's 10 minutes max to fill them both.

The reason that the BB thread sees less traffic is because people played the shit out of it and got platinums, at which point most people stop playing any game regardless. Also what Vorph said.

Pretty much what Vorph said. Combat is great, does not feel "twitchy" to me at all. Don't think I once grinded for anything that wasn't for upgrade mats or blood vials. You say ludwigs/hunter axe outclass everything, then ignore that vast majority of shit in DS2 that was complete garbage. prenerf MGS/Santiers/Avelyn pretty much shitted on anything in DS2 fyi.

Who gives a shit about twitchtv views? Looking right now bloodborne has more lol. It's always what popular streamer is playing whichever game. if twitch views are all that decide if a game is good or not then all I should be playing are Lol/CS:GO/Hearthstone.

^will agree chalice dungeons where underwhelming. I've heard the latest patch helped matchmaking a bit but haven't gotten around to trying it myself.

Low on flasks early game and no blood echoes because you died: use coldblood, that's why it exists.
Low on flasks late game because you can't beat a chalice boss: go to Mergo's Loft middle, a single run which takes like 3 minutes--including loading times--is enough blood to buy 100 flasks.

As for levels, no. But I also only lost about 100k blood echoes total to double deaths during my entire time playing. Everything else got spent on levels or equipment from vendors.

I grinded for levels and flasks. Its just what I do in Souls games.

When I first got to gaol I grinded a few but it was incidental because I was grinding weapon upgrades. I grinded for flasks a few times when I got stuck on a random couple of bosses. Typically your level doesn't matter that much in these games.

I sorta agree on that you can beat every boss at any level, but to say they don't matter is ludicrous. I did Gehrman first before doing any chalice dungeons and then loaded a backup of the save (to get all 3 endings). He was pretty challenging the first time, but after I beat Queen and gained all of the levels associated with doing that he was a complete joke. Like all I had to do was keep swinging at him.

Ritley_sl said:

I sorta agree on that you can beat every boss at any level, but to say they don't matter is ludicrous. I did Gehrman first before doing any chalice dungeons and then loaded a backup of the save (to get all 3 endings). He was pretty challenging the first time, but after I beat Queen and gained all of the levels associated with doing that he was a complete joke. Like all I had to do was keep swinging at him.

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Yeah, levels mean significantly more in this game than in the Souls games. I definitely noticed mitigating more if I saved up enough souls to level several times.

Even so, they aren't necessary. I had more than one boss win that wound up being a near-perfect run after I had been smashed by said boss multiple times before. When the fights click, it doesn't matter what your weapon or stats are, because you get it.