Camelot Unchained MMO

Young_sl

shitlord
45
0
That Sept 2015 release is gross.. I understand it takes a long time to make games, but that is going to seem even longer me thinks.

New FP is up:

http://citystateentertainment.com/20...rs-still-suck/

I don't like the upcoming one..

Mark

Up next: TTN: No realm ranks, abilities? What?
Really? Comon.. we need some kind of long term gain to keep us motivated.. don't make it so you can revamp the game every 6 months like WOW does. Not interested in that.
 

K13R

Bronze Knight of the Realm
285
9
Pvp for me has never been about gear, realm ranks ablities or any of that horseshit carrot that they dangle in front of your average raider. PVP for me is about fun, my rep or epeen and or my guilds rep or epeen.

You give me an engaging, somewhat balance, strategic place to do it im their. Im there for life If I dislike the other side also. I just want kill be killed laugh gank get ganked talk shit blah blah.

Dont treat me like some two bit raider whore that can be wowed by a reskin dungeon with a new shiney.

I pvp'd in games that it actually cost me dough and time with no reward other then the t bag at the end and it was fucking worth every minute cause I hated those cacksuckers on the otherside and they hated me. And that shit would jump off any fucking where anytime. That game was SwG pre cu it wasnt the best game but it was the game I had more fun pvp'n in then any game since no gear chase just straight epeen and /showpvp greatness.

/jedistomp
 

Lost Ranger_sl

shitlord
1,027
4
That is all well and good K13R, but most people do enjoy some form of character advancement. If all people wanted was to stomp bitches and nothing else they can just go play some FPS games. PvP doesn't get any more balanced then that. When talking about a fantasy or sci-fi MMO though people want their character to be more then just a graphic. It is about the pvp first and foremost of course, but people looking for MMO pvp want that MMO feel.
 

K13R

Bronze Knight of the Realm
285
9
Its the mmo rpg feel the non twitch based thats found in fps...I just don't know when pvp got to be another form of raiding for gear.. and the gear check thats associated with raiding..

PvP gets boiled down to gear check and adds another layer of balance in genre that aready diffcult to balance. I not a balance whore by no means I don't mind a little unbalance it doest have to be perfect.
 

Lost Ranger_sl

shitlord
1,027
4
Its the mmo rpg feel the non twitch based thats found in fps...I just don't know when pvp got to be another form of raiding for gear..
It has always been this way. Killing people for gear, or with superior gear is something that has been around since Ultima Online. Before that even if you count MUDs. It is the imbalance of MMO pvp that actually gives it some soul. It has to be kept in check obviously, but making everything 100% the same makes a game feel sterile.

Like I said if you want that "everyone is 100% the same!" pvp then the FPS genre is what you are looking for. Those games are lots of fun, but there is 0 depth to them. They aim for balance and quick action. MMOs have always tried for something more.

Just not always successfully.
smile.png
 

Lost Ranger_sl

shitlord
1,027
4
A added note to go along with that post. Someone told me once that if you don't experience the lowest low points, then you can't experience the highest highs. Point being that imbalance, when kept in check, is what can get people addicted to MMO style pvp. It sucks massive dick when some guy with better gear, or a better build comes along and stomps your shit into the floor. It is that type of game play though that can also allow you to go 1v2, or 1v3 and come out on top if you are good enough. If people are walking around 1-shotting people then the developers suck, but some imbalance is welcome.
 

K13R

Bronze Knight of the Realm
285
9
It has always been this way. Killing people for gear, or with superior gear is something that has been around since Ultima Online. Before that even if you count MUDs. It is the imbalance of MMO pvp that actually gives it some soul. It has to be kept in check obviously, but making everything 100% the same makes a game feel sterile.

Like I said if you want that "everyone is 100% the same!" pvp then the FPS genre is what you are looking for. Those games are lots of fun, but there is 0 depth to them. They aim for balance and quick action. MMOs try for something more.
I think you took my some what balance statement and ran with..obviously if I refering to pre cu swg if you pvp'd in that game at all you know it was the most unbalanced pvp game of all time. It the only mmo with a legit alpha class and no I didnt have one.

I enjoyed the big base battles the impromptu battles in fuck all endor. I never once recieve a piece of gear or plus one from pvp in that game yet it was the most fun I had in any mmo. I refined my template replaced my gear and weapons from you know an actual crafter not some pez dispensing npc taking tokens when I had enough. Trust me I had some uber shit and list uber but that wasnt the meta collecting uber shit. Face rollin rebels or imps was.

Now we got these f up gear treadmills in pvp thats the ass part cause now people lose sight why they pvp in the first place.
 

Lost Ranger_sl

shitlord
1,027
4
Now we got these f up gear treadmills in pvp thats the ass part cause now people lose sight why they pvp in the first place.
I don't disagree. It can get out of hand easily. WoW pvp being the best example of that. Gear shouldn't be the primary reason to pvp, it just needs to be a part of it.
 

Lithose

Buzzfeed Editor
25,946
113,035
I know people who loved EC, but they were the minority in my experience. I hated it.

But as Lithose brought up, if the game has player vendors / shops then I suppose it wouldn't be so bad. The bazaar was a huge update in EQ. If Mark has something like that in the game but with also offline capabilities then I could live with it.
Yeah.

The big thing in a sandbox game isn't really the seller talking to the customer. It's 1.) notoriety of wares and 2.) Traffic.

The second is destroyed by an AH...But you can achieve both through vendors. By having a fully stocked vendor with premium items, that people can reliably find the best stuff on--it will give the creator some big notoriety. Players who need special crafting will seek them out, even. But the big thing having vendors does is increase traffic to certain areas. The largest draw to any player city without an "attraction (Dungeon, Mob Spawn ect) is the economy. Just like real life, if you want players going through towns, interacting, fighting and doing all the social things people do--they you really need 24/7 player maintained vendors. It's that constant availability of the economy that brings players in.

And once players are there, everything else follows. You get PK's swooping in to kill shoppers--which then the town or the crafter has to defend against to improve commerce, so you have town militias or even mercenary guilds being hired (I saw all this shit in UO--really.)....It all starts though, with the economy. I just hope he doesn't think social=100% direct interaction. It doesn't. Social comes by pulling people together.

Now, that said--you can have plenty of mechanics where the crafter needs to interact or be sought out. Like specialized blue prints, special repairs, large orders ect. But the base selling and buying in any sandbox game, where you have player housing and the ability for players to build their own congregating spots, should be done with vendors/shops.
 

Tmac

Adventurer
<Gold Donor>
9,417
16,005
A added note to go along with that post. Someone told me once that if you don't experience the lowest low points, then you can't experience the highest highs. Point being that imbalance, when kept in check, is what can get people addicted to MMO style pvp. It sucks massive dick when some guy with better gear, or a better build comes along and stomps your shit into the floor. It is that type of game play though that can also allow you to go 1v2, or 1v3 and come out on top if you are good enough. If people are walking around 1-shotting people then the developers suck, but some imbalance is welcome.
When I was a lvl 56 Warrior, during vanilla WoW, my lvl 60 mage friend and I were running around Un'Goro crater. He was helping me with a few kill quests since Un'Goro could become a gauntlet of aggro roaming mobs.

Well, after a while of roaming around, we ran into a group of 4 mid level 50's. I think there was a warrior, mage, hunter, and...rogue? Anyways, we were talking on Ventrilo and after a minute of discussing our options, because at this point they had seen us, we decided to take first blood. He blinks in, sheeps the mage, start bolting up a storm and I hang back waiting to charge whoever gets near him. Once the melee's initiate, I charge in, hamstring the two as he kites and then move on to the hunter. As he's kiting we end up getting the hunter down, he re-sheeps the mage and then we do work on the melee.

It was amazing. Probably one of my greatest memories after 6 years of WoW. He was in all blues, I was in all greens, and it was glorious. I don't even think people were raiding MC at this point, so blues were pretty much the largest gap between gear. These were the glory years.

2 v 4 and we lived to tell about it, even while being pretty evenly matched gear wise. Awesome.

I feel like these kind of stories aren't possible in WoW's current iteration.
 

Abefroman

Naxxramas 1.0 Raider
12,588
11,904
Yeah.

The big thing in a sandbox game isn't really the seller talking to the customer. It's 1.) notoriety of wares and 2.) Traffic.

The second is destroyed by an AH...But you can achieve both through vendors. By having a fully stocked vendor with premium items, that people can reliably find the best stuff on--it will give the creator some big notoriety. Players who need special crafting will seek them out, even. But the big thing having vendors does is increase traffic to certain areas. The largest draw to any player city without an "attraction (Dungeon, Mob Spawn ect) is the economy. Just like real life, if you want players going through towns, interacting, fighting and doing all the social things people do--they you really need 24/7 player maintained vendors. It's that constant availability of the economy that brings players in.

And once players are there, everything else follows. You get PK's swooping in to kill shoppers--which then the town or the crafter has to defend against to improve commerce, so you have town militias or even mercenary guilds being hired (I saw all this shit in UO--really.)....It all starts though, with the economy. I just hope he doesn't think social=100% direct interaction. It doesn't. Social comes by pulling people together.

Now, that said--you can have plenty of mechanics where the crafter needs to interact or be sought out. Like specialized blue prints, special repairs, large orders ect. But the base selling and buying in any sandbox game, where you have player housing and the ability for players to build their own congregating spots, should be done with vendors/shops.
Isn't this dependent on a truly unique crafting system? I see many post talking about notoriety of wares and special needs etc. In reality though what happens is hundreds of people have those recipes and wares and all you create is the annoying task of looking for the cheapest price.
 

Lost Ranger_sl

shitlord
1,027
4
Isn't this dependent on a truly unique crafting system? I see many post talking about notoriety of wares and special needs etc. In reality though what happens is hundreds of people have those recipes and wares and all you create is the annoying task of looking for the cheapest price.
Not really. In Ultima Online I remember some stores being far superior to others. While there might be plenty of people with 100 smithing skill that doesn't mean they can keep up with supply and demand. It takes a game like UO where you can lose your stuff when you die. Things can get interesting when just 1 guy might need 10 broadswords, 10 shields, and 10 full sets of plate...a week. Multiply that by the number of customers you might have and you can see where real crafters/traders emerge. Good shops had tons of supplies, restocked often, great prices, and a good location. The real amazing shops are the ones where they were run by multiple people. Grandmasters in every trade skill + dungeon runners who could have a dozen or more merchants with everything you could want. The Walmart of UO if you will.

I never had the patience to get that into it. I ran a couple shops and made a lot of money, but I knew some guys who were just filthy rich. It could be full time work. In games like WoW/Rift you might drop a lot of money on a crafted item, but you will never need it again. The auction house floods with stuff and crafting is just a secondary hobby.
 

Caal

Lord Nagafen Raider
1,588
66
Yeah.

The big thing in a sandbox game isn't really the seller talking to the customer. It's 1.) notoriety of wares and 2.) Traffic.

The second is destroyed by an AH...But you can achieve both through vendors. By having a fully stocked vendor with premium items, that people can reliably find the best stuff on--it will give the creator some big notoriety. Players who need special crafting will seek them out, even. But the big thing having vendors does is increase traffic to certain areas. The largest draw to any player city without an "attraction (Dungeon, Mob Spawn ect) is the economy. Just like real life, if you want players going through towns, interacting, fighting and doing all the social things people do--they you really need 24/7 player maintained vendors. It's that constant availability of the economy that brings players in.

And once players are there, everything else follows. You get PK's swooping in to kill shoppers--which then the town or the crafter has to defend against to improve commerce, so you have town militias or even mercenary guilds being hired (I saw all this shit in UO--really.)....It all starts though, with the economy. I just hope he doesn't think social=100% direct interaction. It doesn't. Social comes by pulling people together.

Now, that said--you can have plenty of mechanics where the crafter needs to interact or be sought out. Like specialized blue prints, special repairs, large orders ect. But the base selling and buying in any sandbox game, where you have player housing and the ability for players to build their own congregating spots, should be done with vendors/shops.
That post was so good the song I was listening to sounded that much better.
 
158
0
Comp crash boned my response. In its place I offer a high-level overview of theSWG trade system and AHs written by Koster. There are a couple interesting things in the comments too.

Do auction houses suck?
March 20th, 2012 (Visited 17581 times) Tags: game design, star wars galaxies, swg, vw design, world of warcraft, WoW

Once upon a time, there was a game set in a science fiction universe where the economy was very important. Its name was not Eve.

In this game, players could, if they so chose, run a business. They could

  • designate a building as a shop
  • hire an NPC bot to stand in it
  • give the bot items to hold for sale
  • specify the prices at which those items would sell
  • customize the bot in a variety of ways
  • make use of advertising facilities to market the shop
  • decorate the shop any way they pleased


With this basic facility, emergent gameplay tied to the way that the crafting system worked resulted in players who chose to run shops being able to do things Ike build supply chains, manage regular inventory, develop regular customer bases, build marketing campaigns, and in general, play a lemonade stand writ large.

The upshot was that at peak,fully half the players inStar Wars Galaxiesran a shop.

Now, most of these players engaged in the system in a shallow way. Advanced versions of the capabilities cited above were unlocked based on RPG-style advancement. You had to choose to do a lot of merchant activity in order to get Merchant XP, in order to unlock more advanced advertising capabilities etc. But even a dabbler could run a small business.

Advanced players actually made the economy their entire game, working eithersoloor in highly organized guilds, managing oilfields worth of harvesters, factory towns worth of crafting stations, and whole malls.

The economy in something likeWorld of Warcraftis very different in character. The peak populations on a shard in each game were comparable, though of course WoW achieved far far higher subscriber numbers in aggregate. But the peak of economic play in WoW is essentially basic arbitrage, timing the market.

There are several factors that make the functioning of the two economies radically different, of course.

  • in WoW all the best stuff is spawned as a result on combat. In SWG it was crafted by players.
  • in WoW nothing breaks; instead you outlevel it. In original SWG everything decayed.
  • in WoW a lot of the most valuable items aren?t actually items ? they are buffs or skills in fancy dress. They aren?t transferable to other players. In SWG there was no ?soul binding? and anything could be traded or gifted.


Fundamentally, though, the biggest difference has to do with the basic approach taken. You see, inStar Wars Galaxieswe designed the economy to be a game, not a side effect. In particular,the merchant class was created to fulfill the fantasy of running your own business.It had features like decorating your shop becausethat is part of the fantasy of being a shopkeeperin a world such as that ? to build up the equivalent of Watto?s junkyard, or a Trade Federation.

And this meant that above all,one feature could not exist: the auction house.

If you think of running a business as a game, then think about what you need in order to make it fun. Game grammar tells us that you are probably playing this as anasynchronous parallel game, meaning that you are measuring yourself against other players? progress against the same opponent you fight. What?s the opponent? The vagaries of supply and demand as expressed by market price. The actions of other players have anindirecteffect on this system.

Remember, a game providesstatistically varied opposition within a common framework? if there is no variation, we call it a puzzle, not a game. Because of this, we invested a lot of effort into creating ever-varying economic situations in SWG.

  • Every resource in SWG was randomly generated off of master types.We defined ?iron,? and gave it statistical ranges. Different kinds of iron would spawn with different names, but they would all work as iron in any recipe that called for such. This meant that you might find a high-quality vein of iron, or a low quality one.
  • Even more,it might be high quality only for specific purposes.
  • Resource types were finite.You could literally mine out all the high quality iron there was. It would just be gone. A new iron might be spawned eventually (sometimes, very eventually!) but of course, it would be rolled up with different characteristics.
  • And in a different place.Resources were placed using freshly generated Perlin noise maps.
  • Crafters gambled with their resources,generating items of varying quality that were partially dependent on the resources and the recipe.
  • Crafters could lock in specific results as blueprints, but that forced a dependency on the specific finite resource that was used, meaning that blueprints naturally obsolesced.


All of this meant that a merchant could never rely having the best item, or the most desirable item (indeed, ?most desirable? could exist on several axes, meaning that there were varying customer preferences in terms of what they liked in a blaster). Word spread through informal means as to the locations of rare ore deposits. People fought PvP battles over them. People hoarded minerals just
to sell them on the market once they had become rare. And of course, they organized sites like the now defunct SWGCraft.com, which monitored all of this fluctuating data and fed it back out in tidy feeds for other sites and even apps to consume, such asthis one, which was widely used by hardcore business players much like a Bloomberg terminal is by someone who plays the market.

Then it all went away. You see, a key feature of the system was that the central NPC run shops were not permitted to interfere with this. Nor was the spawn system allowed to drop high quality items as loot. The result was that if you wanted the coolest weapon, you had to hunt through player-run shops like a mad antiquer on a summer drive. The result of the above systems, you see, was an economy where it was very very hard to see thegestaltof the trade economy. You really had to hunt to find out if you had found a bargain.

For someone who just wanted tofrickin? buy a blaster, it was veryinconvenient.

In other words, we had local pricing in full effect. This meant that the individual merchant, who, remember, was there tofulfill the fantasy of running a small business, could get away with not being being great at it.

In the real world, we are rapidly approaching a perfect information economy.I can instantly look up the varying prices of something I want, determine the one with the lowest actual cost to me (price, shipping, time to arrival, physical location, quality, etc), and get exactly what I want. It is a world optimized for thebuyer.

The experience for the seller, though, is not generally awesome, unless they happen to have the scale that drives victory in a winner takes all scenario. The big guys can essentially dictate prices by undercutting everyone. They dominate the visible market, and can drown out the smaller or more unique offerings.In this sort of world, the funky used bookstore with the awesome decor tends to die, and it doesn?t matter how much fun the shop owner had in coming up with said decor.

SWG eventually did put in a serverwide auction house, responding to WoW. It made life easier for the buyers. But it created a perfect information economy, and all that complexity and variation that was present in the market earlier fell away. Small shopkeepers were shut out of markets.

If that happens to you in a game, you don?t find another line of work. You quit.

So do auction houses suck? No, not if your game is aboutgetting. It is a better experience for a gamer interesting ingetting.

But the fantasy of running a shop, or being a business tycoon, is not just about the getting. It is about thehaving? of relationships, of an empire, of a well-oiled machine. It is aboutrunningthings, not about working your way up a chain of gewgaws. The gewgaws are a way to keep score, but you play the game for the sake of the game.

SWG was not a game about getting. After all, everything you could get in the game eventually broke. It was about thehaving. Having your shops, your town, your supply chain, your loyal customers, your collectible Krayt dragon skull or poster or miniature plush Bantha like in the Christmas Special.

When the merchant changes went in to SWG, the merchants went out.

Getting is kind of addictive. For a mass market audience, it may well be the path to greater acceptance and higher profits. Me, I like funky bookstores; but I have to admit I usually buy from Amazon. It?sconvenient.

The lesson here is that sometimes features that make things better for one player make them dramatically worse for another. Every time you make a design choice you are closing as many doors as you open. In particular, you should always say to yourself,

I?m adding this feature for player convenience. How many people live for the play that this inconvenience affords?
The small shopkeepers; the socializers who need the extra five minutes you have to spend waiting for a boat at the Everquest docks; the players who live to help, and can?t once every item is soul bound and every fight is group locked and they can?t even step in to save your life; the role player who cannot be who they wish to be because their dialogue is prewritten; the person proud of his knowledge of the dangerous mountains who is bypassed by a teleporter; the person who wants to be lost in the woods and cannot because there is a mini-map.

Every inconvenience is a challenge, and games are made of challenges. This means that every inconvenience in your design is potentially someone?s game.
 
1,268
18
Comp crash boned my response. In its place I offer a high-level overview of theSWG trade system and AHs written by Koster. There are a couple interesting things in the comments too.

Do auction houses suck?
March 20th, 2012 (Visited 17581 times) Tags: game design, star wars galaxies, swg, vw design, world of warcraft, WoW

Once upon a time, there was a game set in a science fiction universe where the economy was very important. Its name was not Eve.

In this game, players could, if they so chose, run a business. They could

  • designate a building as a shop
  • hire an NPC bot to stand in it
  • give the bot items to hold for sale
  • specify the prices at which those items would sell
  • customize the bot in a variety of ways
  • make use of advertising facilities to market the shop
  • decorate the shop any way they pleased


With this basic facility, emergent gameplay tied to the way that the crafting system worked resulted in players who chose to run shops being able to do things Ike build supply chains, manage regular inventory, develop regular customer bases, build marketing campaigns, and in general, play a lemonade stand writ large.

The upshot was that at peak,fully half the players inStar Wars Galaxiesran a shop.

Now, most of these players engaged in the system in a shallow way. Advanced versions of the capabilities cited above were unlocked based on RPG-style advancement. You had to choose to do a lot of merchant activity in order to get Merchant XP, in order to unlock more advanced advertising capabilities etc. But even a dabbler could run a small business.

Advanced players actually made the economy their entire game, working eithersoloor in highly organized guilds, managing oilfields worth of harvesters, factory towns worth of crafting stations, and whole malls.

The economy in something likeWorld of Warcraftis very different in character. The peak populations on a shard in each game were comparable, though of course WoW achieved far far higher subscriber numbers in aggregate. But the peak of economic play in WoW is essentially basic arbitrage, timing the market.

There are several factors that make the functioning of the two economies radically different, of course.

  • in WoW all the best stuff is spawned as a result on combat. In SWG it was crafted by players.
  • in WoW nothing breaks; instead you outlevel it. In original SWG everything decayed.
  • in WoW a lot of the most valuable items aren't actually items - they are buffs or skills in fancy dress. They aren't transferable to other players. In SWG there was no "soul binding" and anything could be traded or gifted.


Fundamentally, though, the biggest difference has to do with the basic approach taken. You see, inStar Wars Galaxieswe designed the economy to be a game, not a side effect. In particular,the merchant class was created to fulfill the fantasy of running your own business.It had features like decorating your shop becausethat is part of the fantasy of being a shopkeeperin a world such as that - to build up the equivalent of Watto's junkyard, or a Trade Federation.

And this meant that above all,one feature could not exist: the auction house.

If you think of running a business as a game, then think about what you need in order to make it fun. Game grammar tells us that you are probably playing this as anasynchronous parallel game, meaning that you are measuring yourself against other players' progress against the same opponent you fight. What's the opponent? The vagaries of supply and demand as expressed by market price. The actions of other players have anindirecteffect on this system.

Remember, a game providesstatistically varied opposition within a common framework- if there is no variation, we call it a puzzle, not a game. Because of this, we invested a lot of effort into creating ever-varying economic situations in SWG.

  • Every resource in SWG was randomly generated off of master types.We defined "iron," and gave it statistical ranges. Different kinds of iron would spawn with different names, but they would all work as iron in any recipe that called for such. This meant that you might find a high-quality vein of iron, or a low quality one.
  • Even more,it might be high quality only for specific purposes.
  • Resource types were finite.You could literally mine out all the high quality iron there was. It would just be gone. A new iron might be spawned eventually (sometimes, very eventually!) but of course, it would be rolled up with different characteristics.
  • And in a different place.Resources were placed using freshly generated Perlin noise maps.
  • Crafters gambled with their resources,generating items of varying quality that were partially dependent on the resources and the recipe.
  • Crafters could lock in specific results as blueprints, but that forced a dependency on the specific finite resource that was used, meaning that blueprints naturally obsolesced.


All of this meant that a merchant could never rely having the best item, or the most desirable item (indeed, "most desirable" could exist on several axes, meaning that there were varying customer preferences in terms of what they liked in a blaster). Word spread through informal means as to the locations of rare ore deposits. People fought PvP battles over them. People hoarded minerals just
to sell them on the market once they had become rare. And of course, they organized sites like the now defunct SWGCraft.com, which monitored all of this fluctuating data and fed it back out in tidy feeds for other sites and even apps to consume, such asthis one, which was widely used by hardcore business players much like a Bloomberg terminal is by someone who plays the market.

Then it all went away. You see, a key feature of the system was that the central NPC run shops were not permitted to interfere with this. Nor was the spawn system allowed to drop high quality items as loot. The result was that if you wanted the coolest weapon, you had to hunt through player-run shops like a mad antiquer on a summer drive. The result of the above systems, you see, was an economy where it was very very hard to see thegestaltof the trade economy. You really had to hunt to find out if you had found a bargain.

For someone who just wanted tofrickin' buy a blaster, it was veryinconvenient.

In other words, we had local pricing in full effect. This meant that the individual merchant, who, remember, was there tofulfill the fantasy of running a small business, could get away with not being being great at it.

In the real world, we are rapidly approaching a perfect information economy.I can instantly look up the varying prices of something I want, determine the one with the lowest actual cost to me (price, shipping, time to arrival, physical location, quality, etc), and get exactly what I want. It is a world optimized for thebuyer.

The experience for the seller, though, is not generally awesome, unless they happen to have the scale that drives victory in a winner takes all scenario. The big guys can essentially dictate prices by undercutting everyone. They dominate the visible market, and can drown out the smaller or more unique offerings.In this sort of world, the funky used bookstore with the awesome decor tends to die, and it doesn't matter how much fun the shop owner had in coming up with said decor.

SWG eventually did put in a serverwide auction house, responding to WoW. It made life easier for the buyers. But it created a perfect information economy, and all that complexity and variation that was present in the market earlier fell away. Small shopkeepers were shut out of markets.

If that happens to you in a game, you don't find another line of work. You quit.

So do auction houses suck? No, not if your game is aboutgetting. It is a better experience for a gamer interesting ingetting.

But the fantasy of running a shop, or being a business tycoon, is not just about the getting. It is about thehaving- of relationships, of an empire, of a well-oiled machine. It is aboutrunningthings, not about working your way up a chain of gewgaws. The gewgaws are a way to keep score, but you play the game for the sake of the game.

SWG was not a game about getting. After all, everything you could get in the game eventually broke. It was about thehaving. Having your shops, your town, your supply chain, your loyal customers, your collectible Krayt dragon skull or poster or miniature plush Bantha like in the Christmas Special.

When the merchant changes went in to SWG, the merchants went out.

Getting is kind of addictive. For a mass market audience, it may well be the path to greater acceptance and higher profits. Me, I like funky bookstores; but I have to admit I usually buy from Amazon. It'sconvenient.

The lesson here is that sometimes features that make things better for one player make them dramatically worse for another. Every time you make a design choice you are closing as many doors as you open. In particular, you should always say to yourself,



The small shopkeepers; the socializers who need the extra five minutes you have to spend waiting for a boat at the Everquest docks; the players who live to help, and can't once every item is soul bound and every fight is group locked and they can't even step in to save your life; the role player who cannot be who they wish to be because their dialogue is prewritten; the person proud of his knowledge of the dangerous mountains who is bypassed by a teleporter; the person who wants to be lost in the woods and cannot because there is a mini-map.

Every inconvenience is a challenge, and games are made of challenges. This means that every inconvenience in your design is potentially someone's game.
Yeah that is a pretty good observation by Raph. Other examples being travel and binding in early EQ.

Although, a far-future game with no auction house creates an anachronism. An advanced technology society has jump gates, warp drives, and planet killing death stars ... but nobody ever thought of Ebay?
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Mr Creed

Too old for this shit
2,380
276
That really depends on the lore the game utilizes. In backwater Star Wars regions like tatooine, a setting like Borderlands 1/2 or Firefly I can see the shopkeeper and bazaar method fitting in. In a squeaky clean Star Trek world where you materialize your breakfast out of the thin air, not so much. The lore for this game starts out pretty jumbled so no idea how well it fits. I mean from what I glimpsed its some kind of shadowrun thing where magic reappears in our time. Does that mean you have a mix of sci-fi and fantasy as you'd expect from the background? Or do they make the whole backstory pointless by ignoring the remnants of the modern world that should be around and then make a complete fantasy setting like in DaoC?

The real challenge I see is in making a game that has only RvR that has some staying power in the market. I doubt a DaoC retread without even the PvE will gather enough interest, even if it gets past the kickstarter. Because while all this talk is nice, keep in mind his ideas dont even have founding as of now.
 

Ukerric

Bearded Ape
<Silver Donator>
7,958
9,653
I never had the patience to get that into it.
And therein lies the secret of a good crating system and functional economy. Your crafting system must be so that a relative majority of players aren't going to get into it. If it's too easy, then you get the WoW-type economies where the vast majority of players make most of their own stuff and the only thing that sells is raw mats.
 

Pyksel

Rasterizing . . .
840
284
New FP is up regarding "No Realm Ranks"

Top Ten Questions: No realm ranks, abilities? What?

One of the questions that have popped up over the last few weeks asks how we are going to handle level progression in an RvR-focused game. I have said things like "we aren't going to have realm abilities or realm ranks" which left some people shaking their heads in confusion and a few, I think, truly wondering if I understand the concept of progression, rewards, longevity, etc. in an MMORPG. What is important for players to understand is that as an old school RPGer, that I truly understand the importance of having systems that reward players as they engage in activities that benefit their realm over the lifetime of their character(s). The other thing to keep in mind is that as an RvR-focused game, there is no PvE leveling so increasing your stats, gaining new skills and abilities have to come from <drum roll please> RvR. Thus, having a complimentary leveling system on top of a standard PvE-based leveling system is not necessary since there is no standard PvE-based leveling system in the game.



Okay, so what does this mean to you? First, it means that every time you do something to help your realm it the game will note it. If you are fighting other players, crafting items, building structures in the frontiers, etc., your ruler will note the actions that you are taking to help your realm. Secondly, some of these actions may have an affect on your physical body and your stats. You may grow stronger, gain more attunement with certain magical forces, and become more proficient in one of your skills/abilities/runes/etc. or actually, the opposite at times. Thirdly, while there is not going to be a traditional leveling curve (Ding Gratz! Level 8 calling; Please deposit coins to add more health, more strength and new abilities!) but rather there will be a system that rewards you based on the combination of the actions you participated in (and more that we will talk about later) that we will substitute for the traditional system. How we are going to take what I have talked above and put it into practice will, I am quite sure, get us some cards and letters but that is for another day. What is also important to note is that we want players to get into RvR right from the beginning of their journey in CU. We want to create a system where a high level character is better than he was, better.faster.stronger. than a low level player but it should also not be a system (if we want to have a truly open world) where the high level player sneezes and the low level player is scattered to the four winds. You must be able to have actual RvR in an RvR-focused game and that means that the cavernous gulf of disparity between characters that can be found in other games must not be part of the system here. Again, being a more experienced player will come with tons of perks, benefits, abilities, etc. but it should not be instant death to see somebody a bit more powerful than you coming at you if we want this game to succeed.

So, hopefully that assuages some of the concerns and, I'm sure, might raise some new ones but as I said right from the get-go, we're trying to build a great RvR-focused game and we need to be willing to do some things that might/will piss some people off and Monday's post will be a doozy.

Have a great weekend all!

-Mark

Next up: Rock, paper, scissor, 'Natch!
 

Azrayne

Irenicus did nothing wrong
2,161
786
That's a kind of misleading answer. When people ask if there will be RR/RA's, they're asking if there'll be non-itemized, non-redundant character progression, and from what he said, the answer is basically yes.