Camelot Unchained MMO

Utnayan

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but it still has nothing to do with stealth, so why is he calling it a stealth system? It doesn't make any sense, this is what I mean about him being incoherent and contradictory.
Because he:

1) Doesn't know what the hell he is talking about.
2) Has no plan to design anything related to what he is talking about.
3) Only has a plan to offer lip service after reading input cards from Gamescom to generate $2 million.
4) Profit.
 

Abefroman

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I wish Marc Jacobs would partner with Curt Schilling. This thread would be legendary.
 

Utnayan

F16 patrolling Rajaah until he plays DS3
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I wish Marc Jacobs would partner with Curt Schilling. This thread would be legendary.
That would be fantastic Abe. A project launched off the ground via government funds pledged to Kickstarter off small incremental payments from coming from a payroll tax from the influx of $10/hr jobs to whereever it is Kickstarter is located, all based off a design doc filled with the compilation of the last 5 years of every demand a player wants, and a 3DMark 2010 Demo being played on youtube saying "Look. We can do this"
 

Tmac

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The essential problem with the features he mentions is that he always talks about theresultsof player actions, the end chain of a series of things. Never about the details, how players get there, why they do these things, what motivates them, and how these things interact. That is the easy part, very easy, so easy you guys do it on this board every day and I enjoy reading about it. But you guys aren't professional designers, you aren't asking for money, you are just talking and having fun. You can't just skip all of the other stuff and pretend that it will magically work itself out, that leads to promising things you can't deliver. I say this from both a technical and design perspective, you can't run game development this way and expect good results.
So, you're saying Zehn missed his opportunity to raise $2,000,000 via Kickstarter?
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These are all good points and I certainly know (first-hand) that you can't create a business on concepts and the importance of having concrete, step-by-step processes. Thanks for clarifying.

What I wouldliketo see is him take just one of these MANY features he mentions and lay out how it will work stem to stern, why it works this way, what are its benefits and potential problems, then how they intend to mitigate those potential problems. The details matter, they matter A LOT, and if you just keep skipping around "designing cool things" before working out the details or kinks of the previous system then you end up with 100 20% developed features instead of 20 fully developed features. This is a problem, a big one, one that leaves me with absolutely no confidence in the project.
Yeah. If he was sitting down with real-life game industry investors, who would expect the stem-by-stem process, he wouldn't be making money. I can now understand Ut's rage...kind of. I certainly can't relate to it, but I can certainly see why he's not a fan of Mark.

I criticize it so harshly because CU is such a fantastic public case study on how not to design a game, and yet it is somehow taking so many people in.
It's because people don't understand the industry. It's the same way in my industry and the reason my business exists is because there's a need to educate the consumers in my industry and protect them from shady companies. Heh.
 

Tmac

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And that there in lies the problem. Remember the rollout of SWG's Player City/Militia system? If people here have not played it, back when they rolled it out they did so hastily. Zero forethought. Even on the largest of macro levels possible, which were major player POI's. What happened? Players built player cities over POI's and controlled those POI's so anyone not on the city list could instantly be gibbed and/or tossed from the player city which made those POI's completely inaccessible. (Honestly, I thought it was awesome at the time, haha) The only thing that needed to be done was to block player cities from being built over existing points of interest and adjust that on the fly as more were added to the planets. Instead what happened? They just disabled milita and took all player city control features out of the hands of players and it never came back. What a fucking mess because that was an awesome feature. It would have taken me about 4 seconds to realize that while walking down the hall eating a bagle on the WAY to the meeting discussing implementation and consequences. Good lord.
Great post and I completely agree. I guess I've always loosely imagined that a lot of features were copy/pasted on at the end of a development cycle (ala PvP in WoW), but I never imagined they would be arm-chairing just like we do in here, haha.

The problem? Jacobs doesn't know jack shit about game design other than he knows what it takes to try to hype a crowd.

This will * Never * be delivered as it is being told. If it ever launches at all.
I'm actually beginning to see the similarities between CU and WAR.

My beef was never that people hated Mark, I just didn't understand it. Now I'm beginning to.
 

Blackyce

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The problem? Jacobs doesn't know jack shit about game design other than he knows what it takes to try to hype a crowd.
Please show me your game design resume because as far as I'm concerned you don't know jack shit either about game design.
 

Grim1

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Gonna love watching this thread just for the epic amount of hate UT and Denaut will pour into it. Never really understood the need for people to spend so much energy trashing games they aren't interested in. I personally dislike WoWstar but I just avoid the thread, have better things to do with my time.

But it is entertaining to watch people like UT and Denaut blow their brains up over a person who doesn't even know or care who they are.
 

Cinge

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Ut's always been like that. There are developers he seems to literally stalk and go out of his way to tear them apart.

I honestly think he tried to get hired by these people and was turned away or fired. I just can't see having the hate he has for them just because they made a game he didn't like.
 

Grim1

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I agree with UT usually in a general sense, especially about the state of the industry as a whole. Just amazed at the amount of energy he can put into it.
 

Nirgon

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Worst case scenario: Total shitstorm when game runs out of money, never finishes, Jacobs pelted with rotten vegetables and all credibility gone.
Best case scenario: fun game for RvR

It's going to be something in between.

I just really hope there's realm ranks and good combat mechanics. I've never played MineCraft and don't want to, but in an RvR setting like DAoC I could get behind it.

The only way the haters in here (entitled to their opinion and are on strong footing atm) lose is if "bad game is bad" and it makes money anyways. That's really the worst case scenario for every MMO for us here, right? Millions of casuals love it, it makes boats of money, we hate it? Dunno if that's likely here as far as boats of money or casuals liking this. Casuals don't like their sand castle kicked over. That's exactly what I'd be playing to do.

Lol had to dig this up:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWvAznIRVLA
 

Utnayan

F16 patrolling Rajaah until he plays DS3
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I agree with UT usually in a general sense, especially about the state of the industry as a whole. Just amazed at the amount of energy he can put into it.
It doesn't take an incredible amount of energy to punch little keys on a keyboard while alt tabbed doing something else at work. Not too sure why you would think a whole ton of energy is being wasted discussing video games and some of the good people and retarded people behind them. It is what it is. I find it more hilarious when the people behind these games continue to shit out one turd after another keep getting 1) Hired again. 2) Defended by the same people that defended them last time.

But, this is also why customers in the gaming arena are looked at as a joke from executive staff. No matter what they do, we keep buying their crap, because their crap, is better than having no crap.

And they know that. And abuse the shit out of it. It's getting pretty bad when one can actually look at some of the things we have seen in this industry and think it was just some weird experiment on their customer base to write a paper to investors on. (That happened once, FYI. "Punching bags: How far can we push the consumer in the gaming industry". Conclusion: They still bought the game in droves.
 

Tmac

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Gonna love watching this thread just for the epic amount of hate UT and Denaut will pour into it. Never really understood the need for people to spend so much energy trashing games they aren't interested in. I personally dislike WoWstar but I just avoid the thread, have better things to do with my time.

But it is entertaining to watch people like UT and Denaut blow their brains up over a person who doesn't even know or care who they are.
Trashing a thread is one thing, which is definitely what they were doing earlier, but Denaut did clarify and elaborate on the hate, so I'll give him a break.

It's not the hate I mind. It's the hate without communicating the why.

Carry on.
 

Tmac

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It doesn't take an incredible amount of energy to punch little keys on a keyboard while alt tabbed doing something else at work. FYI.
For whatever reason, I just don't believe this is an accurate description, haha. "The whimsical poster Utnayan," seems to fall about 99 levels short.
 

Utnayan

F16 patrolling Rajaah until he plays DS3
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Ut's always been like that. There are developers he seems to literally stalk and go out of his way to tear them apart.
It isn't going out of the way when they plop their shitty games right in front of my walkway. Portip: Make better games or simply go do something else.
 

mkopec

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It isn't going out of the way when they plop their shitty games right in front of my walkway. Portip: Make better games or simply go do something else.
What?

No one is forcing you to look up the latest news about what Mark Jacobs is doing, or what Firor is churning out in his lab of fail. You boarder on the obsessed if not there already.

Protip: Dont buy their games and move along.
 

Tmac

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The building thing is neat, but it is just a client side tech demo, nothing really, I probably shouldn't say this but my company has that in our tech and it is fully multiplayer. Its fun to play with but it isn't a system, design or game, those are different things and require much more time, effort, and skill to pull together. It skips over all sorts of basic questions like what is the core purpose of a building, what do they do, why and how do they interact with players and the world, what gameplay purpose does it serve, what player fantasy does it fulfill, and how does it interact with your moment to moment gameplay.
So, the engine comes with a Minecraft builder?

I was a fan until you told me that it was basic to the engine...so now it sounds like this feature is a bold-faced lie.

Mark has another video, where he actually talks about the gameplay purposes of housing (they didn't simply release a standalone tech demo), which I saw before the tech demo. So, once I saw the tech demo, I thought to myself, "Oh, sweet, players are going to be able to build keeps with multiple levels and gatehouses, save their plans, and rebuild them pretty easily if they ever get destroyed." See:

harlech-castle.jpg


So, in my mind, it still sounds like a cool idea. It's just hard to get over the fact that they tried to sell it like it was a custom feature, when in fact they got it from Wal-Mart.
 

Denaut

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So, the engine comes with a Minecraft builder?

I was a fan until you told me that it was basic to the engine...so now it sounds like this feature is a bold-faced lie.
No no, it is their tech. It is just, what they showed isn't hard to do, hella game from 1991has a 2D version. The hard part, as usual, is the design and networking side. Putting voxels together client side is incredibly simple.

Mark has another video, where he actually talks about the gameplay purposes of housing (they didn't simply release a standalone tech demo), which I saw before the tech demo. So, once I saw the tech demo, I thought to myself, "Oh, sweet, players are going to be able to build keeps with multiple levels and gatehouses, save their plans, and rebuild them pretty easily if they ever get destroyed." See:

So, in my mind, it still sounds like a cool idea. It's just hard to get over the fact that they tried to sell it like it was a custom feature, when in fact they got it from Wal-Mart.
It is a custom feature, they weren't lying about it, but like I said what they showed is the fast and easy part, a couple days of work. When I talk about the purpose of player housing I mean at a higher level more fundamental issue, and how housing interacts with the game. Honestly though it is hard for me to keep track of all the things he says, there is just so much and it is always both too specific and too vague. That sounds silly, but what it means is he always glosses over the difficult parts of an idea, sometimes those difficult parts are in the details, sometimes they are at a higher level.