Constitutional Law for dummies

Sanrith Descartes

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So I am atarting my PhD in the Fall and in preparation I am rereading some books and reading some others for the first time. One of the new ones is "An Integrated Approach to Constitutional Law" by Andrew Caplan. I figure to chronicle some of the odd things I am learning about how the law looks at our favorite document, the US Constitution.

Consequentialism
"The consequentialist approach asks which interpretation of the Constitution will produce the best results".

This is a real thing. Judges making rulings on the Constitution based on how they think it should work out for the best. Except that their decision is forward looking and they can't actually know it will turn out for the best. And it means they are basically choosing for whom it should work out best for.

Fucking madness.
 

ver_21

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So I am atarting my PhD in the Fall and in preparation I am rereading some books and reading some others for the first time. One of the new ones is "An Integrated Approach to Constitutional Law" by Andrew Caplan. I figure to chronicle some of the odd things I am learning about how the law looks at our favorite document, the US Constitution.

Consequentialism
"The consequentialist approach asks which interpretation of the Constitution will produce the best results".

This is a real thing. Judges making rulings on the Constitution based on how they think it should work out for the best. Except that their decision is forward looking and they can't actually know it will turn out for the best. And it means they are basically choosing for whom it should work out best for.

Fucking madness.

What's your PhD program? Have you had any law classes before?
 

Sanrith Descartes

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What's your PhD program? Have you had any law classes before?
I have a MA in PoliSci and am going after a PhD in PoliSci. I was accepted to Law School but declined. One of my interests for now on a dissertation area is Constitutional freedoms. This was the text for the Con Law class in my grad school that I didn't have an opportunity to take.
 
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ver_21

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I have a MA in PoliSci and am going after a PhD in PoliSci. I was accepted to Law School but declined. One of my interests for now on a dissertation area is Constitutional freedoms. This was the text for the Con Law class in my grad school that I didn't have an opportunity to take.

Cool. You can do the JD at any time, and it will complement any degree. By itself, I guess Consequentialism could be seen as sort of radical, but what if you had 3 Originalists with different interpretations? Then applying Consequentialism would be pretty appropriate.
 

Sanrith Descartes

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Cool. You can do the JD at any time, and it will complement any degree. By itself, I guess Consequentialism could be seen as sort of radical, but what if you had 3 Originalists with different interpretations? Then applying Consequentialism would be pretty appropriate.
I'll circle back to this once I have a little more under my belt. I'm still learning definitions and terms right now.
 

AngryGerbil

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Judges are so fucking powerful it sometimes scares me.

I know they are a needed entity and that they need to be independent. Still, they scare me far more than any Senator of President ever could.

I think of these current 'Stay In Place' orders ("orders") and I think that some Judge somewhere needs to find some of these Executives guilty of violating basic Constitutional Law.

Where is it written that someone can ORDER me, at gunpoint, to stay in my house just because a virus happens to exist?

By what right does an Executive use his police force to deny me of my fundamental human freedoms? Where is the Judge that will stand up to this? Where is the Legislative? It completely baffles me what the Executives of not only our country but of many other countries are getting away with these days.

I mean, I agree with the science and logic behind social distancing. I am on-board with it and I am doing my best. But did I really need some gestapo thug to stick a gun in my face? No thanks.

If the Judiciary is even its own thing, then I sincerely hope, after this COVID thing has begun to wane, that it will put the screws to the Executive and the Legislative for their disgusting over-reaches during this time of crisis.

I will not be holding my breath. I'm sure they will fall in line and play the swamp-game just like the other two branches do.
 
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Comrade Araysar

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Why would you want to do a PhD in Poli Sci in this day and age?

Serious question. All I see is a lot of work with little to no payoff.
 
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Sanrith Descartes

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Judges are so fucking powerful it sometimes scares me.

I know they are a needed entity and that they need to be independent. Still, they scare me far more than any Senator of President ever could.

I think of these current 'Stay In Place' orders ("orders") and I think that some Judge somewhere needs to find some of these Executives guilty of violating basic Constitutional Law.

Where is it written that someone can ORDER me, at gunpoint, to stay in my house just because a virus happens to exist?

By what right does an Executive use his police force to deny me of my fundamental human freedoms? Where is the Judge that will stand up to this? Where is the Legislative? It completely baffles me what the Executives of not only our country but of many other countries are getting away with these days.

I mean, I agree with the science and logic behind social distancing. I am on-board with it and I am doing my best. But did I really need some gestapo thug to stick a gun in my face? No thanks.

If the Judiciary is even its own thing, then I sincerely hope, after this COVID thing has begun to wane, that it will put the screws to the Executive and the Legislative for their disgusting over-reaches during this time of crisis.

I will not be holding my breath. I'm sure they will fall in line and play the swamp-game just like the other two branches do.
I have been spending much time debating this with scholars I studied under. SCOTUS has made a number of rulings on this over time. It is conceded that a State or local municipality has the absolute right to order quarantine for a sick/infected/carrier of a disease under its authority to protect the public. I agree with this.

It gets a whole lot more gray when it comes to quarantining a healthy person. Ita gray because apparently it has never come before SCOTUS specifically. Things like leaking propane in a neighborhood, hurricane incoming etc are all valid to order evacs of an area. But no case has ever challenged specifically quarantining the healthy because.. safety.

The closing of businesses appears to violate the commerce clause. The quarantining appears to violate the 14th Amendment since there was zero due process because courts are generally closed. Also because states ordered the quarantining, the DOJ could step in at anytime under the Supremacy clause and overturn it. But they haven't. My thought is this gives the Fed the ability to take advantage if the quarantine to stop the virus while holding the states accountable for the blame.

My honest feeling is this is a Constitutional violation and everyone knows it, but everyone is also looking the other way due to virus spread containment. I think the blame game comes this summer.
 
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Sanrith Descartes

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Why would you want to do a PhD in Poli Sci in this day and age?

Serious question. All I see is a lot of work with little to no payoff.
Serious answer. What does this day and age have to do with it?

I already have my Masters. With transfer credits I need about a year of seminars, pass my comprehensive exams and then write my dissertation. Its not THAT much work. I like to teach. Teaching with a PhD is infinitely easier with a PhD than with a Masters.
 

Comrade Araysar

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Serious answer. What does this day and age have to do with it?

I already have my Masters. With transfer credits I need about a year of seminars, pass my comprehensive exams and then write my dissertation. Its not THAT much work. I like to teach. Teaching with a PhD is infinitely easier with a PhD than with a Masters.

Well, if you want to work in Academia, you will have to bend the knee and teach critical race theory tinged politics for foreseeable future while making shit money.

If you want to work anywhere else, well you probably dont need a Poli Sci Phd unless youre looking to work for some NGO or a DC think tank.

On top of that you will need to debase yourself to the aforementioned academia for several years just to finish the PhD.
 
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Sanrith Descartes

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Well, if you want to work in Academia, you will have to bend the knee and teach critical race theory tinged politics for foreseeable future while making shit money.

If you want to work anywhere else, well you probably dont need a Poli Sci Phd unless youre looking to work for some NGO or a DC think tank.

On top of that you will need to debase yourself to the aforementioned academia for several years just to finish the PhD.
I generally kind of ignore your posts and this is why. You really know Jack shit about any of this but decide to just give people your "expert" opinion. One of us in this conversation has taught at a state university. One of us in this conversation has an intimate knowledge of graduate studies and higher education. One of us in this conversation believes in continually trying to better his life through more than just posting shit on a gaming forum.

You ain't the one I mention above. No please go back to shitting up the politics thread. Its where you belong.
 
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Comrade Araysar

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I generally kind of ignore your posts and this is why. You really know Jack shit about any of this but decide to just give people your "expert" opinion. One of us in this conversation has taught at a state university. One of us in this conversation has an intimate knowledge of graduate studies and higher education. One of us in this conversation believes in continually trying to better his life through more than just posting shit on a gaming forum.

You ain't the one I mention above. No please go back to shitting up the politics thread. Its where you belong.

Oh yeah like Aldarion Aldarion Chris Chris and some of these other big brain teachers that roll through here.

Arrogance is great quality for a teacher to have. Why dont you educate me on where I'm wrong?
 
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Sanrith Descartes

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Oh yeah like Aldarion Aldarion Chris Chris and some of these other big brain teachers that roll through here.

Arrogance is great quality for a teacher to have. Why dont you educate me on where I'm wrong?
Thank you for proving my point with your anecdotal evidence from two people on a forum you have never met. Its one thing to be a troll, but you are a shitty pathetic troll. Which is basically the equivalent of being a crack whore. While some might look at a $1000/hr escort and at least admire them for being at the top of their game, you basically suck cock for rock.
 

Comrade Araysar

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Thank you for proving my point with your anecdotal evidence from two people on a forum you have never met. Its one thing to be a troll, but you are a shitty pathetic troll. Which is basically the equivalent of being a crack whore. While some might look at a $1000/hr escort and at least admire them for being at the top of their game, you basically suck cock for rock.

Zero information, a tired, cringy and unoriginal crack whore joke and accusation of using anecdotal evidence by someone who trades in it day and night on Political thread, investing thread, just about any thread.

You sound perfect for academia. Arrogant, hypocritical, uninformative, condescending. Sorry I ever doubted you.
 
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Sanrith Descartes

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Zero information, a tired, cringy and unoriginal crack whore joke and accusation of using anecdotal evidence by someone who trades in it day and night on Political thread, investing thread, just about any thread.

You sound perfect for academia. Arrogant, hypocritical, uninformative, condescending. Sorry I ever doubted you.
So you stalk my posts? Wow I didn't know I had a secret admirer. Thats so sweet.
 

Comrade Araysar

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Come on bro, tell me what you really hope to accomplish with this PhD degree.

Are you trying to find some personal validation and appreciation from random strangers? Is it to make money?

Surely teaching isnt the end goal.
 
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Cad

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I have a MA in PoliSci and am going after a PhD in PoliSci. I was accepted to Law School but declined. One of my interests for now on a dissertation area is Constitutional freedoms. This was the text for the Con Law class in my grad school that I didn't have an opportunity to take.

Con Law is a really complicated subject with very few actual answers, and law school doesn't do a lot to teach them. I took Con Law 1 and 2, made A's in both, and it barely scratched the surface.

On the one hand, you probably won't understand what SCOTUS cases are really talking about unless you are educated in law, on the other hand very little education in law relates to the Constitution. It's a problem.
 

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It gets a whole lot more gray when it comes to quarantining a healthy person. Ita gray because apparently it has never come before SCOTUS specifically. Things like leaking propane in a neighborhood, hurricane incoming etc are all valid to order evacs of an area. But no case has ever challenged specifically quarantining the healthy because.. safety.

I don't think you need to find a case where this specific thing has come before SCOTUS specifically. Look for any health restriction imposed on healthy people for the protection of the many. Has any state tried to pass a law mandating vaccination? Has any state or locality tried to pass a law mandating babies be born in a hospital? Stuff like that can be analogized to this situation and would be used as precedent.

The closing of businesses appears to violate the commerce clause. The quarantining appears to violate the 14th Amendment since there was zero due process because courts are generally closed. Also because states ordered the quarantining, the DOJ could step in at anytime under the Supremacy clause and overturn it. But they haven't. My thought is this gives the Fed the ability to take advantage if the quarantine to stop the virus while holding the states accountable for the blame.

My honest feeling is this is a Constitutional violation and everyone knows it, but everyone is also looking the other way due to virus spread containment. I think the blame game comes this summer.

I think you're misunderstanding the commerce clause. The commerce clause is a grant of power to the federal government. The states can't "violate" the commerce clause. The federal government can pass a law under the commerce clause that that clause doesn't actually authorize - but it's can't be "violated" as it's a grant not a restriction.

States and municipalities generally have quite a lot of leeway in regulating businesses - Texas has blue laws for example, regulating when liquor stores can be open. It's arbitrary, has absolutely no reason behind it, and they still exist! I would guess its pretty well accepted that states can regulate businesses for ... reasons.

Is this one of those reasons?

Also I'm not sure it is one of the federal governments enumerated powers to decide when businesses can be open. Arguably, at least under the current interpretation of the commerce clause, the Federal Govt could regulate such under the power to regulate interstate commerce. It would be extremely unwieldy however since such regulations would apply nationwide.
 

Sanrith Descartes

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I don't think you need to find a case where this specific thing has come before SCOTUS specifically. Look for any health restriction imposed on healthy people for the protection of the many. Has any state tried to pass a law mandating vaccination? Has any state or locality tried to pass a law mandating babies be born in a hospital? Stuff like that can be analogized to this situation and would be used as precedent.



I think you're misunderstanding the commerce clause. The commerce clause is a grant of power to the federal government. The states can't "violate" the commerce clause. The federal government can pass a law under the commerce clause that that clause doesn't actually authorize - but it's can't be "violated" as it's a grant not a restriction.

States and municipalities generally have quite a lot of leeway in regulating businesses - Texas has blue laws for example, regulating when liquor stores can be open. It's arbitrary, has absolutely no reason behind it, and they still exist! I would guess its pretty well accepted that states can regulate businesses for ... reasons.

Is this one of those reasons?

Also I'm not sure it is one of the federal governments enumerated powers to decide when businesses can be open. Arguably, at least under the current interpretation of the commerce clause, the Federal Govt could regulate such under the power to regulate interstate commerce. It would be extremely unwieldy however since such regulations would apply nationwide.
This is honestly one reason I enjoy studying it. It has so many layers and permutations. Its frustrating and yet fascinating.