Desktop Computers

Jovec

?
847
413
Looking at some pre-mades for ease of use and limited time. Thinking of the two below. The Maingear seems the better deal, but honestly I'm so ignorant these days on hardware specs that just because the numbers are bigger, I'm not sure if that's better? Looking to be under $3,000 for the computer. Have all the peripherals and the monitors already.

Any other high-end options that I'm missing? I skipped Falcon due to cost.




Maingear (7800X3D and 5070ti) is the better gaming system and perfectly fine for office/media usage. Corsair would be better for CPU core-heavy/multithreaded performance, but if you need that type of system you shouldn't be buying either of these anyway.

Starforge is another SI you should check out.

(if you buy the Maingear system, you might need to play with the RAM settings if the system isn't doing 6400 at 1:1)
 

Lanx

<Prior Amod>
68,874
159,764
Looking at some pre-mades for ease of use and limited time. Thinking of the two below. The Maingear seems the better deal, but honestly I'm so ignorant these days on hardware specs that just because the numbers are bigger, I'm not sure if that's better? Looking to be under $3,000 for the computer. Have all the peripherals and the monitors already.

Any other high-end options that I'm missing? I skipped Falcon due to cost.



gamersnexus constantly reviews corsair prebuilts as shit, also everyone is on team red(amd) now anyway, intel is just gonna burn up in a year
 

Deathwing

<Bronze Donator>
17,218
8,208
Their employees were eating too much fruit.

Out competed by AMD, lackluster and power hungry 13th and 14th gen processors, and poor management of a major fab mishap.
 

Fucker

Log Wizard
14,034
32,872
I've been out of the "know" for a while. I didn't have any idea Intel is in trouble. What's the context of that?

Jovec Jovec This one seems to be comparable; Navigator Elite | Prebuilt Gaming PC | Starforge Systems
They are way behind on foundry. They might catch up with the new litho machines in a few years. So far, a $26B might.

Their newest CPU is worse than the previous gen. However, it is an entirely new design from the ground up, and dispenses with a lot of design technology they've been using for decades. Will it pan out? Next gen will tell us.

They completely missed the AI boat in the same way they completely missed the mobile boat.

They are losing ground in enterprise. All of the large ground they've lost will never be recaptured.

Their previous two CEO's either lacked direction or lacked balls. Their brand new CEO has both, but fixing all these things takes time. Will the board give him enough runway to do it?

They are losing market share in every category.
 

Burren

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
4,641
6,294
They are way behind on foundry. They might catch up with the new litho machines in a few years. So far, a $26B might.

Their newest CPU is worse than the previous gen. However, it is an entirely new design from the ground up, and dispenses with a lot of design technology they've been using for decades. Will it pan out? Next gen will tell us.

They completely missed the AI boat in the same way they completely missed the mobile boat.

They are losing ground in enterprise. All of the large ground they've lost will never be recaptured.

Their previous two CEO's either lacked direction or lacked balls. Their brand new CEO has both, but fixing all these things takes time. Will the board give him enough runway to do it?

They are losing market share in every category.
Oh. Wow. That's a lot of issues.
 

Lanx

<Prior Amod>
68,874
159,764
I've been out of the "know" for a while. I didn't have any idea Intel is in trouble. What's the context of that?

Jovec Jovec This one seems to be comparable; Navigator Elite | Prebuilt Gaming PC | Starforge Systems
they've admitted that their latest chips and probably dating all the way back have had microcode issues, basically think of it as lane closures, well you close down a lane and redirect, but if you have multiple lane closures then you funnel everything to 1 lane and you create a traffic jam or a "hotspot", intel admits, 13th/14th gen chips have microcode failures, ppl say it's also the 12th gen and ppl found this out after years of blaming...

nvidia, everyone thought all the game crashes was just too hot chips fucking up and it made sense, you game you crash, you just blame the video card, but then as amd started to pwn intel (since ryzen3 and 2020 amd has just been tits amazing) and more ppl had more amd chips, these crashes don't happen w/ amd, why?

tldr:
you are a faggot if you buy an intel pc now
 
  • 1Truth!
Reactions: 1 user

Jovec

?
847
413
I've been out of the "know" for a while. I didn't have any idea Intel is in trouble. What's the context of that?

Jovec Jovec This one seems to be comparable; Navigator Elite | Prebuilt Gaming PC | Starforge Systems

System looks solid. As a PCMR snob, the 6000 CL38 RAM is a tiny bit slow (CL30 is the price/performance sweet spot for AMD), but the X3D part of the 7800X3D does make up for the slower timings. If you ever look to go to 48/65/96GB etc just get better timings then. The 2TB NVME with 3,500 read seems too slow any decent brand PCIe 4 NVME, but that is probably just Starforge giving themselves room to swap models as supply changes (iow, I'd expect the actual included NVME to hit higher read speeds).

Key difference is the 9070XT versus 5070ti - the 5070ti is faster overall and faster at ray tracing, but the 9070xt is no slouch. 5070ti and Nvidia will have broader driver/software LLM/AI support if that matters to you (NV Cuda is better than AMD ROCm), and though neither is a LLM/AI powerhouse with only 16GB of VRAM they can still be fun to play around with.

Maingear specs a 850w power supply and Starforge 750w - both are more than fine for the systems and can power any GPU upgrade short of a 5090.

Maingear uses a B850 chipset which gives PCIe 5 for the main NVMe slot even though they ship it with Gen 4 drive (GPU is still PCIe 4 which is perfectly fine). Starforge is using B650 whichs has is only PCIe 4(for main NVMe and GPU).

Maingear on paper has a little better upgrade path from the two points above, but probably shouldn't be the main deciding factor.

Between the Maingear and Stargforge systems one would be hard pressed to tell which is which in a blind gaming test. Look at pricing, support, looks, etc to differentiate.
 
Last edited:

Burren

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
4,641
6,294
System looks solid. As a PCMR snob, the 6000 CL38 RAM is a tiny bit slow (CL30 is the price/performance sweet spot for AMD), but the X3D part of the 7800X3D does make up for the slower timings. If you ever look to go to 48/65/96GB etc just get better timings then. The 2TB NVME with 3,500 read seems too slow any decent brand PCIe 4 NVME, but that is probably just Starforge giving themselves room to swap models as supply changes (iow, I'd expect the actual included NVME to hit higher read speeds).

Key difference is the 9070XT versus 5070ti - the 5070ti is faster overall and faster at ray tracing, but the 9070xt is no slouch. 5070ti and Nvidia will have broader driver/software LLM/AI support if that matters to you (NV Cuda is better than AMD ROCm), and though neither is a LLM/AI powerhouse with only 16GB of VRAM they can still be fun to play around with.

Maingear specs a 850w power supply and Starforge 750w - both are more than fine for the systems and can power any GPU upgrade short of a 5090.

Maingear uses a B850 chipset which gives PCIe 5 for the main NVMe slot even though they ship it with Gen 4 drive (GPU is still PCIe 4 which is perfectly fine). Starforge is using B650 whichs has is only PCIe 4(for main NVMe and GPU).

Maingear on paper has a little better upgrade path from the two points above, but probably shouldn't be the main deciding factor.

Between the Maingear and Stargforge systems one would be hard pressed to tell which is which in a blind gaming test. Look at pricing, support, looks, etc to differentiate.
I appreciate this insight. I'll admit I don't know all the terms you mentioned, nor all the impacts that might have on what I'm doing, or how I'll upgrade the machine over time. But, I think context on my end might be helpful as well. I'm not going to be using this new computer - or expecting it to be able to - for bleeding edge graphics or games. I'm looking to get something that's about 8/10ths of the max and viable for 4-6 years.

It does make sense to me to be able to swap items out over time (ram, SSDs, GPU, power supply etc.) but the less I have to do that the better and only being able to use some builder's proprietary hardware seems like a negative to me.

Lanx Lanx & Fucker Fucker mentioned the struggles of Intel. So, does that theoretically (realistically?) impact my ability to upgrade over the next few years? Since 1998 when I got into computers, I've never had an AMD system. Its a dumb question perhaps, but are they reliable? I consider reliability above all else (cars, guns, tech) when making decisions to buy. They must be, right? Or else they wouldn't still be around.

Yes, I do over-analyze just about all of my decisions. I'm working with a therapist on it, lol.
 

Fucker

Log Wizard
14,034
32,872
Both MG and Corsair use off the shelf motherboards. Upgrading them will be like upgrading anything else. I don't worry about upgrading CPU on current motherboard. I just buy new.

Reliability is more of a motherboard/BIOS thing than an Intel or AMD thing. I have a mix of AMD and Intel. AMD in main systems. One has been running for year with 0 problems of any kind. My new AMD system was a motherfucker to build, but it has been solid since.

I've had a few Intel CPU's shit themselves. Running at stock settings and then one day got dementia. Intel sent out a replacement pretty fast. Also, Intel 13/14th gen CPU's randomly shit themselves and sometimes have problems with Nvidia hardware.
 

Jovec

?
847
413
There is very little reason for someone to buy an Intel CPU today. Something like a 14900k or 285 can be competitive with a 7950x/9950x from AMD and even outperform it occasionally, but why take the risk? The AMD CPUs will be faster in most multi-threaded tasks, will use less power, and do not have Intel's recent track record of issues. For gaming, again the 14900k might be top in a specific game or two, but the 7800X3D/9800X3D/7950X3D/9950X3D are faster in the vast majority of games, use a lot less power, and do not have Intel's issues.

Burren Burren , there are different levels to upgrades. The Corsair system uses Intel 14th gen, which has no viable CPU upgrade path besides a faster 14th gen CPU. Both Maingear and Starforge use AMD Zen 4 CPUs (7000 series), so one could upgrade to Zen 5 available now (9000 series aka 9800X3D or 9950X), or Zen 6 in the future (which AMD has promised will be compatible).

System memory and drives can be upgraded in all systems. Maingear allows PCIe 5 NVMe drives to be a future upgrade by nature of the motherboard they use. Gen 5 drives are faster in benchmarks, but arguably not that noticeable (if at all) for gaming and general purpose usage. I suspect that both Maingear and Starforge are using DRAM-less budget drives anyway, so even a better quality Gen 4 drive like a Samsung 980 pro / 990 pro or SK Hynix P41, etc. will provide a performance upgrade path without the need for Gen 5 drive.

The biggest difference between them is the video cards. Here is a direct comparison between the two cards. That site benches in-game (rather than canned benchmarks) so it's failry realistic. Keep in mind there is a "$150" difference between the two cards, so based on that alone one should expect the 5070ti to be faster given the price. And it is. I'd also expect some of the real outlier games that heavily favor one GPU over the other to see that gap closed a bit with future driver updates, but times have changes and often one brand or the other has a disproportionite advantage in a specific game that cannot be addressed with drivers. If there are certain games you really wanted to play with the best performance than it might be worthwhile to buy that GPU brand. Games that use full ray-tracing (path tracing) are still heavily Nvidia favored (watch this), but the catch is that even the vast majority of Nvidia cards will suffer too since most people do not have 4080/90 or 5070ti/5080/90 class GPUs anyway. So these games still have the option to disable full RT/PT for good performance.

Nvidia has the better feature set with DLSS (versus AMD FSR). These are upscalers. They allow a game to run at a lower resolution but display at a higher resolution (for performance reasons). The goal is for the upscaler to make the game look as good as native. DLSS and FSR do a reasonable job at this and are getting better, but Nvidia's solution is a bit better quality and more widely supported. AMD with FSR4 is nearly at DLSS 4 quality, but FSR 3 is definately behind DLSS 3 in quality.

If you want all the eye-candy, one still needs a 4090 or 5090. But FWIW, many of us here use 7900XT/XTX/9070XT cards and are happy with them (myself included).

TLDR; Starforge is a fine system and one that we'd all be happy with the performance of. The Maingear system on specs alone is probably worth the extra money if the Nvidia GPU matters to you (and 850w power supply and gen 5 capable NVMe mobo). I cannot speak to quality or support from either company.
 
  • 1Like
Reactions: 1 user

Burren

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
4,641
6,294
There is very little reason for someone to buy an Intel CPU today. Something like a 14900k or 285 can be competitive with a 7950x/9950x from AMD and even outperform it occasionally, but why take the risk? The AMD CPUs will be faster in most multi-threaded tasks, will use less power, and do not have Intel's recent track record of issues. For gaming, again the 14900k might be top in a specific game or two, but the 7800X3D/9800X3D/7950X3D/9950X3D are faster in the vast majority of games, use a lot less power, and do not have Intel's issues.

Burren Burren , there are different levels to upgrades. The Corsair system uses Intel 14th gen, which has no viable CPU upgrade path besides a faster 14th gen CPU. Both Maingear and Starforge use AMD Zen 4 CPUs (7000 series), so one could upgrade to Zen 5 available now (9000 series aka 9800X3D or 9950X), or Zen 6 in the future (which AMD has promised will be compatible).

System memory and drives can be upgraded in all systems. Maingear allows PCIe 5 NVMe drives to be a future upgrade by nature of the motherboard they use. Gen 5 drives are faster in benchmarks, but arguably not that noticeable (if at all) for gaming and general purpose usage. I suspect that both Maingear and Starforge are using DRAM-less budget drives anyway, so even a better quality Gen 4 drive like a Samsung 980 pro / 990 pro or SK Hynix P41, etc. will provide a performance upgrade path without the need for Gen 5 drive.

The biggest difference between them is the video cards. Here is a direct comparison between the two cards. That site benches in-game (rather than canned benchmarks) so it's failry realistic. Keep in mind there is a "$150" difference between the two cards, so based on that alone one should expect the 5070ti to be faster given the price. And it is. I'd also expect some of the real outlier games that heavily favor one GPU over the other to see that gap closed a bit with future driver updates, but times have changes and often one brand or the other has a disproportionite advantage in a specific game that cannot be addressed with drivers. If there are certain games you really wanted to play with the best performance than it might be worthwhile to buy that GPU brand. Games that use full ray-tracing (path tracing) are still heavily Nvidia favored (watch this), but the catch is that even the vast majority of Nvidia cards will suffer too since most people do not have 4080/90 or 5070ti/5080/90 class GPUs anyway. So these games still have the option to disable full RT/PT for good performance.

Nvidia has the better feature set with DLSS (versus AMD FSR). These are upscalers. They allow a game to run at a lower resolution but display at a higher resolution (for performance reasons). The goal is for the upscaler to make the game look as good as native. DLSS and FSR do a reasonable job at this and are getting better, but Nvidia's solution is a bit better quality and more widely supported. AMD with FSR4 is nearly at DLSS 4 quality, but FSR 3 is definately behind DLSS 3 in quality.

If you want all the eye-candy, one still needs a 4090 or 5090. But FWIW, many of us here use 7900XT/XTX/9070XT cards and are happy with them (myself included).

TLDR; Starforge is a fine system and one that we'd all be happy with the performance of. The Maingear system on specs alone is probably worth the extra money if the Nvidia GPU matters to you (and 850w power supply and gen 5 capable NVMe mobo). I cannot speak to quality or support from either company.
This is fantastic information, thank you. I'll dig deeper into these topics this weekend and look up all of my options for longevity, then make the call. I think I'm leaning towards future-proofing options rather than a brick wall today. Even at a $400-$500 gap it would be worth the better choices for long term use and upgrades.

As far as support and service from these brands, I have no idea. But, I'm sure I can get some information on that from the marketplace to see if either excels or sucks. Ultimately, I only see that being a real issue if they are using proprietary parts that I can't swap out, right? If its all compatible with other options, I can always replace and upgrade if something bugs out.

just-when-i-thought-i-was-out-they-pull-me-back-in.jpg
 

Kirun

Buzzfeed Editor
20,052
16,539
I actually just ordered the Navigator III Elite from StarForge when my PC took a shit.

They shipped it fantastic, their customer support was awesome about letting me upgrade the shipping to "next day" after I accidently selected standard, etc. They had the latest MSI BIOS loaded, XMP enabled, AMD Smart Access for the GPU, etc. The only thing I had to really mess with is updating the chipset drivers.

The $500-600 premium over "do-it-yourself" was worth ignoring all the fucking hassle. The cable management was fucking phenomenal, all the fans are synced, temps are great (38-42C while idle/doing basic web browsing - 45c - 55C while gaming), GPU was installed with the anti-sag bracket, all of it. I would definitely order from them again.

The only downside is that your order doesn't "fulfill" right away. It took about 4 days before they actually "fulfilled" the order and I've heard that it has taken some people 1-2 weeks due to part shortages or whatever.
 
  • 1Solidarity
Reactions: 1 user

Lanx

<Prior Amod>
68,874
159,764
I appreciate this insight. I'll admit I don't know all the terms you mentioned, nor all the impacts that might have on what I'm doing, or how I'll upgrade the machine over time. But, I think context on my end might be helpful as well. I'm not going to be using this new computer - or expecting it to be able to - for bleeding edge graphics or games. I'm looking to get something that's about 8/10ths of the max and viable for 4-6 years.

It does make sense to me to be able to swap items out over time (ram, SSDs, GPU, power supply etc.) but the less I have to do that the better and only being able to use some builder's proprietary hardware seems like a negative to me.

Lanx Lanx & Fucker Fucker mentioned the struggles of Intel. So, does that theoretically (realistically?) impact my ability to upgrade over the next few years? Since 1998 when I got into computers, I've never had an AMD system. Its a dumb question perhaps, but are they reliable? I consider reliability above all else (cars, guns, tech) when making decisions to buy. They must be, right? Or else they wouldn't still be around.

Yes, I do over-analyze just about all of my decisions. I'm working with a therapist on it, lol.
maybe youre worried about the legacy issues in the early 90s? like when companies like cyrix had to license mmx from intel? heck in fact intel now has to license amd64 cuz they fucked up itanium. it's not like anyone is trying to pimp the small guy.

as far as upgrade path? amd is amazing compared to shit intel, ever since intel sued amd out of using the "slot" and amd went back to socket, they've only had 5, simply am1 - am5, most of us are on am4 still, that socket launched in 2015, yes it was a rough 2 years w/ bulldozer(the chip) but once amd got their shit together and released zen(series) in 2017, it's been tits up, i actually am running 3, am4 systems. a first gen zen1, a zen2 xt i bought to overclock for fun and a zen3 5800x3d as a dedicated gaming pc and the x3d series is now amazing for gaming.

it's retarded now that if youre buying a gaming pc, it has to be x3d

in terms of reliability, no one will trust an intel cpu now that we know theyve been having microcode leaks since gen12
 

Burren

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
4,641
6,294
Looked up all the parts from the Maingear pre-made ( and I swapped some they allowed, like the cpu and power). $2500 ordered separately and built at home or $3200 ordered ready to go. Big delta.
 

Burren

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
4,641
6,294
Looked up all the parts from the Maingear pre-made ( and I swapped some they allowed, like the cpu and power). $2500 ordered separately and built at home or $3200 ordered ready to go. Big delta.
Shit, all the Zen 5 AMD CPUs are out of stock or back order from New Egg =(
 

Lanx

<Prior Amod>
68,874
159,764
Looked up all the parts from the Maingear pre-made ( and I swapped some they allowed, like the cpu and power). $2500 ordered separately and built at home or $3200 ordered ready to go. Big delta.
pc building has been relatively the same for years, new stuff is, you get to pop the socket cherry


video cards are so chonky now you need an anti-sag goku to make sure your card doesn't crack
fdd4086bc1107d78765c3ebb70075c28.png

or vertical mount it

and the proper way to mount an aio
first-build-is-this-a-correct-aio-orientation-v0-knx4pz8qo8rb1.jpeg