Diablo 3 - Reaper of Souls

Zaphid

Trakanon Raider
5,862
294
Good luck fighting d2 nostalgia. Every time runewords get mentioned it makes me shake my head. Runewords were just the typical +gooder stats and the occasional cross class skill. Not to mention the actual rarity of the runes for the amazing runewords was insanely low and only available thanks to duping.
I installed the latest Median XL yesterday and still most of my problems have to do with engine limitations, like getting the game to run at fullscreen beyond 800*600 is a process that requires mastery of several occult arts I think, because the best I can do is windowed. The game design is as good as ever and there is even a realm set up if I want to play online.

Looking at SC2 and HotS, I wonder how much of my memories is nostalgia and how much is the simple fact that every single Blizzard expansion seems to improve the vanilla game tenfold.
 

Tenks

Bronze Knight of the Realm
14,163
606
Outside of WoW Vanilla vs WoW TBC (I preferred Vanilla) Blizzard always unfucks their games with expansions. I didn't really follow WC3 ROC vs WC3 TFT so I don't know if TFT was good or bad for the competitive scene there or not. Playing D2 without LoD or SC without BW is like playing a completely different, far inferior game. D3 has a great engine and is very satisfying to go around murdering hordes of demons. I'm sure their expansions to it will be pretty good.
 

TecKnoe

Molten Core Raider
3,182
51
Outside of WoW Vanilla vs WoW TBC (I preferred Vanilla) Blizzard always unfucks their games with expansions. I didn't really follow WC3 ROC vs WC3 TFT so I don't know if TFT was good or bad for the competitive scene there or not. Playing D2 without LoD or SC without BW is like playing a completely different, far inferior game. D3 has a great engine and is very satisfying to go around murdering hordes of demons. I'm sure their expansions to it will be pretty good.
itl probably be the master piece we were all expecting on day 1 T_T
 

Tenks

Bronze Knight of the Realm
14,163
606
Maybe. Hopefully they learned their lesson and they'll let beta testers get to the end of the game and give feedback. Blizzard has to know that a game gets a huge black mark on it if it's launch is shit. Exactly what happened here. It could have all been avoided if Blizzard didn't care about trying to keep their M Night Shamamalan twist thatfucking everyone saw coming a mile away. Beta testers would quickly realize that release Inferno was praying you got a 0.000000001% chance drop and the ramp from Act1 to Act2 was dick punchingly hard.
 

TecKnoe

Molten Core Raider
3,182
51
Maybe. Hopefully they learned their lesson and they'll let beta testers get to the end of the game and give feedback. Blizzard has to know that a game gets a huge black mark on it if it's launch is shit. Exactly what happened here. It could have all been avoided if Blizzard didn't care about trying to keep their M Night Shamamalan twist thatfucking everyone saw coming a mile away. Beta testers would quickly realize that release Inferno was praying you got a 0.000000001% chance drop and the ramp from Act1 to Act2 was dick punchingly hard.
Yeah im not sure what the fuck blizzard was thinking with the initial difficulty of inferno, and just the total change in difficulty from a1-2 i know act1 is the beginner act but still it felt like going from normal act1 to nm act2.
 

Amzin

Lord Nagafen Raider
2,917
361
The biggest thing they could add with the expansion is randomized dungeons, which is damn easy probably, they just have to actually want to do it.
 

HUH_sl

shitlord
318
0
The biggest thing they could add with the expansion is randomized dungeons, which is damn easy probably, they just have to actually want to do it.
Yeah, add a randomized endless dungeon that gets slightly more difficult the further you go down and track everyone's progress with a Ladder. I could play that till I died of a blood clot from sitting on my ass too long.
 

Zaphid

Trakanon Raider
5,862
294
Some actually random areas would be nice, I mean the only things in the overworld that are random are events and most of the underground stuff has like 3 templates with minor differences.
 

Haast

Lord Nagafen Raider
3,281
1,636
I've seen the "not random enough" complaints thrown out a bunch of times. I find the lacking randomness to be very convenient. In D2, it was EXTREMELY common to use a maphack if you were repeatedly re-running areas (especially Mephisto) or leveling a new build because the randomness was annoying and just slows you down.

On subsequent play-throughs, you aren't discovering anything new. It's the same set of mobs in the same randomly connected (or not so randomly connected) set of map tiles. The point of Diablo-style games is to get loot and levels. More randomness just means you progress through the same content slower while looking for loot and levels. What gives you a thrill, seeing the big column of light from a lego drop or cursing as you finally find the exit to the giant map you've run 100s of times before? If you need to run into dead ends repeatedly to have fun, you should probably wear a bike helmet at all times for your own safety.
 

TecKnoe

Molten Core Raider
3,182
51
Anyone out there still playing WD? wondering what builds besides bears people go, also what people are doing for grouping.
 

EtadanikM_sl

shitlord
37
0
I installed the latest Median XL yesterday and still most of my problems have to do with engine limitations, like getting the game to run at fullscreen beyond 800*600 is a process that requires mastery of several occult arts I think, because the best I can do is windowed. The game design is as good as ever and there is even a realm set up if I want to play online.

Looking at SC2 and HotS, I wonder how much of my memories is nostalgia and how much is the simple fact that every single Blizzard expansion seems to improve the vanilla game tenfold.
Nostalgia arguments on the internetz are a case of of pop psychology misuse and need to be confined to the domain of rhetorical fallacies.

For example, Diablo 1 came out years before Diablo 2 and invokes even greater nostalgia from a younger period of childhood. Why aren't people waxing poetic about Diablo 1 and its awesomesauce game design?
 

Foggy

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
6,246
4,815
What is amazing is that Diablo 2 never needed a single update and still remains completely flawless.
Nice straw man.

The complaint many people have with D3 being so shit-tastic out of the gate is that it had Diablo 2 and all the lessons learned from developing and improving that game to lean on but they seemingly didn't. Skill system, worse. Farming, worse, Itemization, worse. Having an RMAH, worse. Story driven content, worse. Not being able to WP freely about the Acts as you please, worse. End game content, worse. Combat, worse. Classes, worse. Atmosphere, worse. Low level content, better. Personal loot, better. Having an AH, meh.

They improved a whole two fucking things while managing to make everything else worse. They didn't learn a damn thing from D2 or intentionally ignored those lessons until all the players left D3 so they were forced to straight up copy D2. It is still an inferior game with better graphics. Sure it will continue to get better but it should have never been so terrible. The developers clearly have no idea what they are doing other than trying to copy D2 at this point. The game as a whole was a massive step back for the genre and since release they have been taking small steps to clone D2. They did not try anything new or exciting. That isn't really Blizzard's thing though. Instead, they usually take what exists and make it better. D3 took D2 and made it almost impossibly worse. Say what you will about PoE but at least they put in systems foreign to the genre like the passive tree and skill gems. The game may not be perfect by they are trying things that have the possibility of improving the genre.
 

Tenks

Bronze Knight of the Realm
14,163
606
How exactly is the skill system worse? I think the skill system in Diablo3 is pretty amazing. Instead of putting 1 point in a skill until you hit level 30 and dumping everything. In fact Diablo2's skill system was pretty retarded.
 

Foggy

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
6,246
4,815
D3's system is better at lower levels for sure, that is why I said they improved low level content. However, I much prefer D2's system when you are at high levels. With the addition of respecs to D2 it actually isn't nearly the problem it use to be though.
 

Tenks

Bronze Knight of the Realm
14,163
606
I'll just leave it at I disagree with almost every point you make outside a few that are really a no brainer (ie: story driven / itemization.)
 

Mr Creed

Too old for this shit
2,383
276
Count me in for "moar random levels please!" ... I'd like some curiosity injected into exploring the dungeons while blowing up hordes of demons. Right now its just getting old really quick because compared to D2 Hell difficulty levels D? seems almost linear. If they threw in some dungeons made with the existing tile sets that are actually randomized instead of a set map with 8 empty spots to place a random doodad I would have much more fun. Just make it enough levels to meet like 6-10 champ packs and put a boss at the end that drops bonus loot like Butcher etc and call it a day. Taking the endless dungeon feature from the various D2 clones that came out in the last decade would be nice too. I stopped playing in May and picked it back up last week, game has improved but not enough to keep me interested much, reached paragon level 4 before drifting to PS2 and GW2 again.

As far as expansions go, post-WoW Blizzard has unlearned how to make a timely expansion. Look at when SC2 came out and then when the xpac came out. Oh yea it hasnt, yet. Despite the claims of releasing it within a year of SC2 itself. D3 will have to be fixed with content patches, any expansion that might or might not come during winter 2014/2015 is a bonus.

What I would prefer instead is Blizzard adopting a small DLC for $10 approach, just because they might actually manage to make maybe one or two per year. The game at its core is farming stuff for +gooder and I'm fine with that, but I do want some variety in my farming. So new areas and classes would be awesome. I thinik it would be great if some action rpg actually took a LoL approach to classes and made like a new one per quarter. You need a solid base for that so all classes can work with the existing item pool but I think D3 is doing ok in that regard. So instead of 5 classes with 30 skills with 6 runes each and 30 passives, make it like 15 skills but more focused on a theme, less runes and passives too but over time many more classes. D2 covered that with different builds that you couldnt reroll, depending on how you used your points you fairly different characters. Unfortunately D3 doesnt have quite the effective variety, for whatever reason. TLDR: more classes please.
 

Seananigans

Honorary Shit-PhD
<Gold Donor>
12,267
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You're turning into the Itzena of Diablo 3, Tenks
frown.png
 

EtadanikM_sl

shitlord
37
0
How exactly is the skill system worse? I think the skill system in Diablo3 is pretty amazing. Instead of putting 1 point in a skill until you hit level 30 and dumping everything. In fact Diablo2's skill system was pretty retarded.
This has been discussed over and over. But because you asked -

Diablo 2's 'put 1 in every prerequisite till you're ready to specialize' was indeed flawed because it resulted in degenerate gameplay through the early levels, but the overall idea behind the system - specialization & progressive upgrades for every single skill - gave you fine grain control over a character's abilities and increased replayability by offering a different playthrough experience for each 'build.' Besides which, the fundamental flaw in Diablo 2's system was easily fixed by allowing players one respec per character, which solves the gameplay degeneracy entirely.

Of course, because the progressive upgrades for skills were not equally useful - and at times were completely retarded - eventually people figured out optimal cookie cutter builds that reduced the fine grained customization to the equivalent of picking one of several subclasses for each macro class - ie zoomancer, cold sorc, lightning sorc, hammerdin, zealodin, etc. But even with the creativity being squeezed out of the system by accumulated game knowledge, you STILL got the benefit of the replayability because of the need to build multiple characters, each with different advantages and disadvantages, suited for different tasks - ie trash farming, Meph. farming, Baal farming, uber farming, elite farming, PvP, etc, and you STILL got the benefit of having every skill in the game scaling with the amount of specialization, leading to personalized builds that employed a cookie cutter core with an individual choice of optional skills.

By contrast, in Diablo 3, every class receives the benefit of infinite respecs at every stage of the game and the skill system is such that the bulk of the skills in the game only scale in one direction. The result is two-fold. First, nobody ever makes a second character from a class: the amount of replayability in the game is therefore reduced to N, where N is the amount of classes. Indeed, it is reduced to less because the balance in Diablo 3 is such that every class is capable of doing virtually everything useful that you want it to do, with the advantages / disadvantages being minimized by design, and because of the Paragon system they introduced you are discouraged from switching characters to begin with. This is the classic 'rail roading' design principle that Blizzard West has operated from WoW onward.

Second, while you do still have the option of switching skill sets and gear around to produce unique play experiences at 60, because skills are designed to scale in the same direction - instead of uniquely for each skill - and because Diablo 3's skills are just overall less different, there is far less variety than the skill system at first glance gives you. For example, using frogs vs. using spiders vs. using skulls as a WD is practically a moot cosmetic choice - the play style difference between them is minimal because they all do the same thing and upgrade the same way. Thus, while min/maxers are still going to tell you to use X because it's a few % better than Y, switching to the use of X over Y introduces very little novelty to your game.

By contrast, using, say, poison nova vs. bone spirit was a night and day decision in Diablo 2 for a necromancer because not only did the two skills result in very different play styles, but they led to very different advantages / disadvantages vs. the various immunities in the game. Of course, a defender of Diablo 3 is able to make the argument that there are equally important choices in Diablo 3 - for example using bears vs. using sacrifice. But the proportion of skills falling into the cosmetic range vs. the night and day range is greater in Diablo 3, both because a lot of Diablo 3's skills lack variety / balance, and because Diablo 2's skill system had progressive upgrades for every skill - allowing you to individually customize the way each skill scaled up - while Diablo 3's skill system is designed to have blanket scaling and so forces the skills into a specific design template.

The importance of build decisions in Diablo 2 was thus greater than that of Diablo 3 at both the level of replayability and actual play style. The final result is that there was a longer period of time in which players were kept in the loop of novel experiences, and in which they were incentivized to develop new characters and twinks. This is not to say that the skill system is the only culprit, because skill systems do not exist in a vacuum and it's the holistic effects of its interaction with the rest of the game that produce overall player experiences. Thus, an evaluation of the skill system by itself is worthless, but becomes useful when you start looking at how it interacts with the rest of the game to produce novel experiences and replayability incentives.
 

Kirun

Buzzfeed Editor
<Gold Donor>
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The importance of build decisions in Diablo 2 was thus greater than that of Diablo 3 at actual play style.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA..no.

I swear, you fucks are theexactsame people who wax nostalgic about EQ. It's like you dipshits didn't even play these games. That's how fucking blind your rose-colored glasses have left you.