EA's pay to win future

Vaclav

Bronze Baronet of the Realm
12,650
877
Honestly if Dead Space 3 is the example they're gonna follow I don't care - the clip reload thing could be bad or notsobad depending (ME3 MP had it with in game currency or cash)

As long as its optional stuff like both 3s had I could care less myself - I won't spend cash on it but if someone else wants to spend to save grinding meh - could care less.

Frankly rather see that stuff than $10 online passes that can't be avoided most of the time. (Esp for plat hunters like myself)
 

Hachima

Molten Core Raider
884
638
This is great, it's letting the younger generation enjoy the gaming experience I had when I was growing up.

Just got my allowance! I get to play more games again!
At the arcade:
continue 10...9...8..oh crap out of quarters, quick run to the change machine... 3..2..
 

Amzin

Lord Nagafen Raider
2,917
361
Well sure, if you had to pay $60 to get into the arcade in the first place, that'd be analogous.

I haven't bought an EA game since Origin came out and can't think of anything I'm missing off the top of my head. There's tons of great games without having to give them a cent.
 

Caeden

Silver Baronet of the Realm
7,354
11,850
I think some companies need to get better control of development costs. I know they rise, but to some extent you get some economies of scale. Is it a case of everyone spending money a la Bioware for SWTOR? Should we not be stagnated to some degree? Voice, HD, etc? Seems that cost should be highest at the start with new hardware gen then drop considerably. I admit I'm not a programmer, but I did work in developing mechanical technology components and that's how it went for us.

That said, do people not remember the costs of SNES carts?!? Some were fucking high and the $19.99 market didn't really fucking exist. $79.99 is probably a great price for some games with inflation. Just be judicious and don't buy shit or have some fucking patience for the price to drop.
 

Cor_sl

shitlord
487
0
I think some companies need to get better control of development costs. I know they rise, but to some extent you get some economies of scale. Is it a case of everyone spending money a la Bioware for SWTOR? Should we not be stagnated to some degree? Voice, HD, etc? Seems that cost should be highest at the start with new hardware gen then drop considerably. I admit I'm not a programmer, but I did work in developing mechanical technology components and that's how it went for us.
Development costs haven't dropped -- they've risen steadily through this last generation.

LmUzDhvl.jpg


And the userbase hasn't increased much this generation (155 million ps2s sold vs 153 million 360+ps3), meaning there aren't more consumers to sell to this gen vs last.The cost of games hasn't risen since the beginning of this gen, either. If anything, they've fallen slightly.

As such, the publishers have had to find new ways to extract more money from their existing userbase to generate enough revenue to cover rising development costs; i.e., microtranscations. If you look at EAs financials, their generated revenues are higher than they ever have been. Their costs, however, are also higher than they ever have been.

The video game business, as it is currently, is a bad business to be in. Of the big 5 western publishers, Activision has made a shit load of money this gen, Ubisoft has made a modest profit, Take 2 has made a modest loss, EA has lost billions, and THQ has gone bankrupt. We've seen dozens of development houses go bankrupt because they haven't been able to make a profit this gen.

Looking at the console manufacturers, none of them are winners, either. Sony lost $4.5 billion on PS3 and they lost half their marketshare to Microsoft, too, making the PS3 the biggest console failure in videogaming history. It could be argued that it was necessary to ensure Blu-Ray succeeded as a format, but was that worth $4.5 billion? I doubt it. It's believed that Microsoft lost somewhere in the region of $1-2 billion on the 360, too, taking into account RROD and R&D costs. Nintendo.. Well, they made somewhere in the region of $5 billion last gen, but for the next gen, they have the Wii U, an underpowered console with a sketchy tablet gimmick, and the 3ds, which is a tepid success, at best.

Now, going into next gen, development costs are only going to continue to rise. This is, obviously, unsustainable. Something has to change else the industry will crumble. It's doubtful that the next generation will grow the videogame audience (too many casual consumers lost to other devices like smartphones, tablets and PCs), so these publishers will need to extract more money from their existing base. They could reduce budgets, I guess, but then their games would get marked down by snarky reviewers and video game "fans" stating "shitty textures! bad graphics!" etc., leading to poorer sales overall.

I'm curious to see what's going to happen.

That said, do people not remember the costs of SNES carts?!? Some were fucking high and the $19.99 market didn't really fucking exist. $79.99 is probably a great price for some games with inflation. Just be judicious and don't buy shit or have some fucking patience for the price to drop.
Yup. Games today are cheap, yet people still complain about their cost.

103.jpg


http://www.1up.com/news/90s-game-pri...ison-charticle

Games in the 90s cost a LOT less to develop, too, so the publishers were actually making a profit back then.

Gamers are an overly entitled bunch. They expect to buy super powerful consoles sold by manufacturers at a loss, and they expect their games to cost a pittance, too. It's fucked up.
 

Big Phoenix

Pronouns: zie/zhem/zer
<Gold Donor>
44,532
92,935
No dude consoles are a amazing business model that will be around for another 30-40 years.
 

Caeden

Silver Baronet of the Realm
7,354
11,850
Development costs haven't dropped -- they've risen steadily through this last generation.
I get that as far as pure numbers. I guess I'm asking "why?" And to some extent I see it, but some things I don't. Voice acting should be about a standard rate to some extent. If its too pricey, design around it for fuck sakes. Textures? Isn't that a major input at the start that gives you an economy of scale? I guess I don't know enough about coding and development in general to understand.

I just remember launching one of my former company's products and that first product with the radical new tech was a BITCH, but the next couple that were more or less minor upgrades were faster, cheaper, and easier. Games just don't seem to follow that. I worry its a lot of the shit decisions a la SWTOR. Alas, I'd be glad to hear anyone in the know to shed some general light on where these costs go. Has cycle time also gone up that fast? I wouldn't be surprised. Gotta get that down. Six Sigma'ing can be soul-less but it can help you curtail that shit.

Gamers as a cheap ass bunch? Yep. Totally agree. There's a time to bitch and a time not to. And the base price of say, Skyrim ain't it. That game, probably any of the ME's, possibly any major online shooter that cultivates a huge following and maybe some freebie map packs (I don't play shooters so there probably aren't many freebies anymore), etc are worth up to $79.99.

I remember dropping near $100 on Street Fighter II Turbo SNES and something like $89 for FFIII (VI) on SNES.

I really think most gamers would /shrug if consoles died. We'd all just flip on PC's. And those Madden nuts or Black Ops drones? They'd just play fantasy football or go back to sitting in front of the tube watching Chuck Norris movies (nothing wrong with that). Those are who consoles are for really.
 

Sulrn

Deuces
2,159
360
I really think most gamers would /shrug if consoles died. We'd all just flip on PC's. And those Madden nuts or Black Ops drones? They'd just play fantasy football or go back to sitting in front of the tube watching Chuck Norris movies (nothing wrong with that). Those are who consoles are for really.
Should have stopped typing a few sentences earlier. Seriously.

If you can't see the biodiversity that has grown out of the niche that was created since Atari, you're a fucking idiot.
 

Caeden

Silver Baronet of the Realm
7,354
11,850
Biodiversity? Over calling out the rehash drones? Look at what sells the most on consoles! Yearly updates that are the same shit. So I stereotyped it a bit.
 

Sean_sl

shitlord
4,735
11
Biodiversity? Over calling out the rehash drones? Look at what sells the most on consoles! Yearly updates that are the same shit. So I stereotyped it a bit.
Call of Duty and Madden are not a case study for the entire industry and every publisher and developer. Most of them arenotlike that. See my post above, last year was fucking amazing for new IPs, new ideas, and old IPs going in new directions. Anyone who spouts the "everything is the same every year" bullshit doesn't actually play shit for video games and isextremelyignorant.
 

Cor_sl

shitlord
487
0
I get that as far as pure numbers. I guess I'm asking "why?" And to some extent I see it, but some things I don't. Voice acting should be about a standard rate to some extent. If its too pricey, design around it for fuck sakes. Textures? Isn't that a major input at the start that gives you an economy of scale? I guess I don't know enough about coding and development in general to understand.
Textures, models, programming, sound effects, music, voice acting etc. are all created through sheer manpower. Need some extra textures? Gotta hire someone to do it for you. Need to animate a model? Gotta hire an animator. The cost to hire these people is going up, not down. Unless you outsource to China or whatever, which has its own set of problems.

As the scale and scope of AAA games increase, gamers are demanding more.

Look at this gen, for example. The initial games were relatively simple in design and scope.

But then we had stuff like Gears of War that massively raised the bar for graphical fidelity and made every other console game look cheap and shitty in comparison. Post Gears, every game had to look "at least" as good as Gears as not to be declared "shitty" by gamers.

Fast forward a few years, we have games coming out with a grander scale than ever before. I'm going to use Uncharted 2 as an example. I think the game itself, in terms of gameplay, is shitty. The aiming feels bad, the platforming is boring, and the story is dull. The set pieces are incredible, though. Playing the stage where you're traversing a train while it's being blown up was incredible. As was the stage where you're moving through a building as it crumbles around you. It raised the bar for set pieces for the future.

Now, these are just two of many games. Modern Warfare could be used as an example of a game elevating the quality of the console FPS, for example. Assassin's Creed could be used as an example of a game creating a massive fully realised environment unlike ever before. Etc etc.

All of these games raised the bar and every game coming after them had to work to match them which requires more money, more work hours, and more manpower.

The same thing is happening in Hollywood, too. Remember when Titanic was considered 'obscenely expensive' with a budget of $200 million? How many films with a $200+ million budget have been released since? Tons!

I just remember launching one of my former company's products and that first product with the radical new tech was a BITCH, but the next couple that were more or less minor upgrades were faster, cheaper, and easier. Games just don't seem to follow that. I worry its a lot of the shit decisions a la SWTOR. Alas, I'd be glad to hear anyone in the know to shed some general light on where these costs go. Has cycle time also gone up that fast? I wouldn't be surprised. Gotta get that down. Six Sigma'ing can be soul-less but it can help you curtail that shit.
Another big problem is that the game developers have traditionally hired more people to get a job done. This wasn't a problem in the PS2 and earlier era because they were still making a ton of money. IIRC, EA made about $2 billion profit in the PS2 era, for example. They didn't have to worry about "working smarter" - they could throw more people at a problem and it'd eventually right itself. Things changed last gen because it quickly became obvious that it wasn't possible to do that anymore. Better tools and better workflows were needed to speed up development.

Now, going into next gen, there's a huge focus on this. Unity, UE4, CryEngine, etc. are all easier to use than ever before, meaning artists and programmers can get more work done in less time. It's going to take some time before these cost reductions are felt, though, and they may be offset by the added complexity of next gen development.

I really think most gamers would /shrug if consoles died. We'd all just flip on PC's. And those Madden nuts or Black Ops drones? They'd just play fantasy football or go back to sitting in front of the tube watching Chuck Norris movies (nothing wrong with that). Those are who consoles are for really.
I kinda agree. I think, in the future, we're going to end up with two ways to play games: mobile devices and PCs.

The casuals will go to the mobile devices and they'll be happy. Note: By mobile, I don't mean gaming handhelds. They'll be gone soon.

Dedicated TV boxes like the AppleTV might be popular, too. Noted Apple fanboy MG Siegler wrote a surprisingly decent piece about the danger the AppleTV poses to gaming consoles -http://techcrunch.com/2013/02/14/death-by-apps/. (EDIT - This article Siegler linked to is MUCH better:https://ilikecode.wordpress.com/2013...d-stupid-xbox/; read this instead)

As for the PC - I think it will eventually replace the role of consoles completely.

This year is going to be huge for PC hardware because, for the first time, integrated graphics won't suck. Haswell and Jaguar (I think that's the name of AMDs next gen APU platform - apologies if it's not) will be able to play games with good looking graphics at 1080p, which will be enough to satisfy most of the casual COD/FIFA/whatever fans, while the more dedicated gamers will be able to pick up a great dedicated graphics card that can do all sorts of cool shit.

I imagine this is where the Steambox comes in. Valve is going to do their utmost to make playing games through Steam as easy as it is to play games with a console.

Of course, this is all speculation. The PS4 and the Xbox whatever could end up being huge success stories and this speculation could all be pointless. Stranger things have happened. I doubt it, though. The consumer base has shifted dramatically in the last few years and I'm not sure the console market will be able to keep up with it.
 

Sean_sl

shitlord
4,735
11
Handhelds aren't going anywhere for a while, they're still hugely popular in Japan and their Commuter Culture has continued to foster their growth. Their popularity will likely die down in the US, but they'll still be around as long as Japan continues to love them. The PSP may have tanked here, but PSP games consistently held the top seller spots for Japanese software which is pretty crazy.
 

Cor_sl

shitlord
487
0
I spent a week in London recently and I had to take the London Underground about 20-30 times. Over the course of about 20 hours spent on the tube, I saw one Vita, one PSP, and a handful of 3ds's. I saw literally hundreds of smartphones and tablets, though, and most people were playing games on them.

Yeah, handhelds will still be around, but they're going to be a tiny, tiny niche. They're not going to be anywhere as big as the DS was, for instance.

As for Japan - what I wrote above doesn't really apply to them. They're in their own little microcosm where things are done differently. I don't pay as much attention to the trends there so I can't really comment on them.
 

Sean_sl

shitlord
4,735
11
Plus as long as Nintendo remains a hardware company, handhelds will still be around. Nintendo won't go away as oneuntilthey decide to stop selling their software only on their platforms.

People buy Nintendo handhelds for only a few franchises and as long as those franchises are still massive sellers Nintendo's handhelds will never be "niche."
 

Cor_sl

shitlord
487
0
Well, who knows how long Nintendo will be around for. They've lost somewhere in the region of $3 billion over the past few years, the Wii U is performing dismally, and the 3ds is selling far below expectations everywhere but Japan. They're not doing too well at the moment, but there is still time to turn things around. The $24 billion war chest that they're sitting on will no doubt help, too.

I do wonder if the Japanese market is big enough to sustain a Japanese only handheld. That might be interesting.

Edit - I just had some time to think about it and I'm going to revise my opinions slightly. I think Nintendo could, if they wanted, have a nice, small niche of gamers all to themselves. They'd need to focus on releasing games consoles that are profitable from the outset (unlike the Wii U - think GameCube) and they'd need to focus exclusively on gamers and gamers alone. They wouldn't make much profit from this niche, but they'd be able to build a small, sustainable business, I think.

RE: Nintendo franchises.

I think one of the big problems Nintendo will face in the future is that people are being weaned off Nintendo franchises. I've been in the UK, Spain, China, Thailand and Indonesia, where I still am, over the last few months and all I see everywhere is bloody Angry Birds. I've seen kids wearing Angry Birds hats and tee shirts and stuff -- it's absurd.

Are those kids going to be growing up with Nintendo franchises? Are they going to hold them dear to their hearts like many of the current generation of gamers do? I'm not sure. If the Wii U continues to sell as poorly as it does and the 3ds doesn't amount to much more than a 'moderate' success, I imagine the Nintendo brand will be damaged pretty badly.
 

Alexzander

Golden Knight of the Realm
520
39
Seems like I made a good decision by refusing to install origin or never buying any games that require it.
 

Sean_sl

shitlord
4,735
11
The 3DS seems to be making a pretty good comeback though, especially with Fire Emblem. It's pretty crazy that that game is selling out everywhere. I don't think they're in any danger of that system not being a success.

Japan probably is big enough to sustain a handheld market by itself. There's an utter fuckton of Japanese handheld games that never make it over here and live only on the Japanese market. There's entire hugely popular franchises that we totally miss out on.
 

Cor_sl

shitlord
487
0
The 3DS seems to be making a pretty good comeback though, especially with Fire Emblem. It's pretty crazy that that game is selling out everywhere. I don't think they're in any danger of that system not being a success.
Ok, so, the 3ds is going to make Nintendo money. There's no doubt of that. The problem is that, as it stands, it'll be a tepid success, at best, unlike the DS which was a ridiculous runaway success.

Quoting myself from the Wii U thread:

The 3ds also performed incredibly poorly in the US this January. Last year, it sold 170k units. This year, it sold approximately150k~ units. That's a massive drop. To make matters worse, January 2012 was a 4 week month while January 2013 was a 5 week month, which makes the sales figures look better than they are. Accounting for the 5 week month, we're looking at a 30%~ish drop in sales in 2013 compared to 2012.

The only place the 3ds is selling well is Japan. And maybe France.
Nintendo has had to revise their sales expectations downwards twice already for the 2013 FY, and they're going to miss those revised expectations still. The 3ds is making them money, yes, but it's not making them anywhere as much as they hoped it would.

I think Nintendo needs to makes a decision about where their future lies: Are they going to try and capture the wider gaming market? Or are they willing to settle for the Nintendo core? I think it's fairly obvious that the casual crowd that made the DS and the Wii U the huge success stories that they were are fickle and are probably not returning back to Nintendo. They tried to recapture those folks with the 3ds and the Wii U and they don't seem to have succeeded. Maybe they'll come up with some amazing idea that I can't see that will bring them tons of success. Unfortunately, I can't think of anything. Then again, I'm just some random guy speculating about the videogame industry. Who knows what kinds of crazy shit Nintendo is toying around with in their labs.
 

Sean_sl

shitlord
4,735
11
Sure, but it's still going to be agoodsuccess, just not a "holy shit" success. Nintendo's not even remotely in danger of doing poorly and has a shitload of money. Their hardware numbers may fall abitfor handhelds, but their core software still sells amazingly well. To think that they are in any danger of disappearing or dying out is absurd. The DS was also never about capturing the casual market either; it was about having an amazing game library. Good software sold that system and good software will sell the 3DS. The 3DS started out poorly due to bad pricing and it's recovering from that.

The Wii U is looking to be a complete failure in contrast and I don't think them dropping out of the console business is out of the question. Nintendo putting all of their energy into their handheld division wouldn't be surprising.
 

Vorph

Bronze Baronet of the Realm
10,984
4,706
Two things:

1. Witcher 2. It cost less than $10M to make and that includes the development of an entirely new engine. Pretty sure not one person has ever said anything about shitty textures or bad graphics in relation to that game, considering that it can still make even the most powerful PCs today struggle when all the bells and whistles are turned on.

2. People who use the word "entitled" in political discussions are a magical combination of pretentious and retarded. People who use it when talking about fucking videogames are infinitely worse.