Epic Games Storefront - A Good Incentive for Piracy

goishen · Feb 4, 2019

I don't think that I get this shit of "store =/= product". The store buys from the corporation. Then marks it up by at least 100% (sometimes 200%). Then puts it on the shelves. So, if you buy a product from a store, you are in fact supporting that store.

I mean, what's so difficult about that?

meStevo · Feb 4, 2019

OU Ariakas said:
I was thinking about this, but then why not have a metric about returns and make that transparent but limited to certain options.

That means it would say X% of the total game oweners returned their purchase for the following reason:

X%: Game breaking bugs/would not load
X%: Microtransactions required as core gameplay
X%: Too short
X%: Didn't enjoy
X%: Other

This also gets rid of the shitty drive by return reviews by not giving them the option of sharing their own reason why the returned it. And really, why should they if they got a full refund?

Related, there's a lot more room to innovate when it comes to reviews and game information. I want a review scale for single player, multiplayer (competitive) and multiplayer (cooperative) and best with n number of players. Pair this with max players per mode among other metadata on each title and you have a search and review system much more worthwhile to me than much of what Steam has done.

a_skeleton_05 · Feb 4, 2019

goishen said:
I don't think that I get this shit of "store =/= product". The store buys from the corporation. Then marks it up by at least 100% (sometimes 200%). Then puts it on the shelves. So, if you buy a product from a store, you are in fact supporting that store.

I mean, what's so difficult about that?

I think he's getting confused with the idea of a product only being a physical/digital individual item that is manufactured. It would be like saying that the box your ipod comes in isn't a part of the product.

Leadsalad · Feb 4, 2019

The store is also defacto DRM.

Vorph · Feb 4, 2019

Not sure where the Epic shills get the idea that you need to be a Steam fanboy to hate what Epic is doing. SteamWorks is the only thing I really like about Steam. When the API is properly integrated into a game it makes a whole lot of stuff the developers might otherwise be unable/too lazy/too time-crunched trivial to implement. Stuff like native DS4 support over Bluetooth with automatic switching to Sony button prompts for example. Or networking features for games with an online component. Big Picture is an excellent product too.

The actual Steam storefront is a cesspool on par with a mobile app shop and has been for years (since Greenlight ended). The front page redesign from a couple years ago made it much, much worse too. Steam sales are non-events now compared to what they used to be like. Unlike GOG, Steam has DRM, even if it's relatively unobtrusive and offline mode mostly works (and it's worth noting that Epic's DRM is much worse than Steam's and doesn't have an offline mode option at all yet).

Ravishing · Feb 4, 2019

Kiki said:
Imagine that you must now go to the worst Walmart in existence to buy your toilet paper instead of buying it on Amazon and having it delivered to your door, because Walmart made a deal where they have exclusive rights on toilet paper. They don't have bathrooms in this Walmart, and they only have 1 checkout line with the slowest grandmother in existence. Everyone smells like farts and the floors are sticky. Are you happy about being forced to buy your toilet paper there?

How is that good for competition exactly? How is that good for consumers? Oh great, we have another store to go to that is worse than the one we already have and we are forced to use it. How great is that?!

If you want to do it right, open a bigger better store (like Bucees) and let your better features (again Steam workshop alone blows out anything for both consumers and developers) bring people in. Don't try to force them in with shady backroom deals and expect them to be happy about it.

EDIT: and if you don't think Amazon/Walmart is a product, then what are all the commercials advertising?

holy fucking shit, lets break out the dictionary: Dictionary by Merriam-Webster: America's most-trusted online dictionary

product
noun
prod·uct | \ ˈprä-(ˌ)dəkt \
Definition of product

1: the number or expression resulting from the multiplication together of two or more numbers or expressions
2a(1): something producedespecially : COMMODITY sense 1
(2): something (such as a service) that is marketed or sold as a commodity
b: something resulting from or necessarily following from a set of conditionsa product of his environment
3: the amount, quantity, or total produced
4: CONJUNCTION sense 5

commodity
noun
com·mod·i·ty | \ kə-ˈmä-də-tē \
plural commodities
Definition of commodity

1: an economic good: such as
a: a product of agriculture or mining agricultural commodities like grain and corn
b: an article of commerce especially when delivered for shipment reported the damaged commodities to officials
c: a mass-produced unspecialized product commodity chemicals commodity memory chips
2a: something useful or valuedthat valuable commodity, patiencealso : THING, ENTITY
b: CONVENIENCE, ADVANTAGE… the many commodities incidental to the life of a public office …— Charles Lamb
3: a good or service whose wide availability typically leads to smaller profit margins and diminishes the importance of factors (such as brand name) other than price
4: one that is subject to ready exchange or exploitation within a market… stars as individuals and as commodities of the film industry.— Film Quarterly

store
noun
Definition of store (Entry 2 of 3)
1a: something that is stored or kept for future use
bstores plural : articles (as of food) accumulated for some specific object and drawn upon as needed : STOCK, SUPPLIES
c: something that is accumulated
d: a source from which things may be drawn as needed : a reserve fund
2: STORAGE —usually used with inwhen placing eggs in store— Dublin Sunday Independent
3: VALUE, IMPORTANCEset great store by a partner's opinion
4: a large quantity, supply, or number : ABUNDANCE
5a: STOREHOUSE, WAREHOUSE
bchiefly British : MEMORY sense 4
6: a business establishment where usually diversified goods are kept for retail salea grocery store— compare SHOP

shop
noun, often attributive
\ ˈshäp \
Definition of shop
(Entry 1 of 2)
1: a handicraft establishment : ATELIER
2a: a building or room stocked with merchandise for sale : STORE
bor less commonly shoppe \ ˈshäp \ : a small retail establishment or a department in a large one offering a specified line of goods or servicesa millinery shopa sandwich shop
3: a commercial establishment for the making or repair of goods or machinerymachine shoprepair shop
4a: a school laboratory equipped for industrial arts education
b: the art or science of working with tools and machinery
5a: a business establishment : OFFICEa public relations shop
b: SHOPTALKtalking shop

market
noun, often attributive
mar·ket | \ ˈmär-kət \
Definition of market
(Entry 1 of 2)
1a(1): a meeting together of people for the purpose of trade by private purchase and sale and usually not by auction
(2): the people assembled at such a meeting
b(1): a public place where a market is heldespecially : a place where provisions are sold at wholesalea farmers' market
(2): a retail establishment usually of a specified kinda fish market

---------
Steam offers services, you are not paying for them. Paying indirectly is not the same as purchasing them. Otherwise every-fucking-thing would be considered a product. Are the cows teets my milk come out of part of the product I'm purchasing when I'm buying milk?

This is the dumbest shit I ever heard.

Just cause these stores offer some services doesn't mean jack shit, you're not buying their services, they are using these services to attract business, but it's not something you're paying for directly. Which is the key difference between Product/Commodity & Store/Shop/Market.

Koushirou · Feb 4, 2019

There’s an entire brand of milk based on it coming from cows that only make some specific protein, or so they say. We have this whole organic bullshit thing going on where the reason to buy the product is because of a trait of the source, so yes, the source is in a way part of the product.

TJT · Feb 4, 2019

Koushirou said:
There’s an entire brand of milk based on it coming from cows that only make some specific protein, or so they say. We have this whole organic bullshit thing going on where the reason to buy the product is because of a trait of the source, so yes, the source is in a way part of the product.

Better comparison. Do you buy milk from whole foods or public/local grocery store for the shopping experience?

Ravishing · Feb 4, 2019

Koushirou said:
There’s an entire brand of milk based on it coming from cows that only make some specific protein, or so they say. We have this whole organic bullshit thing going on where the reason to buy the product is because of a trait of the source, so yes, the source is in a way part of the product.

This doesn't really prove or disprove what i'm saying, just that it's part of which makes the product. Yes, the sources/ingredients/materials contribute to the product... Isn't that kinda obvious?

Edit: And yea, I guess my question lead to your answer but I was more just adding hyperbole there anyway. The whole thing is stupid.

a_skeleton_05 · Feb 4, 2019

Ravishing said:
holy fucking shit, lets break out the dictionary: Dictionary by Merriam-Webster: America's most-trusted online dictionary

product
noun
prod·uct | \ ˈprä-(ˌ)dəkt \
Definition of product

1: the number or expression resulting from the multiplication together of two or more numbers or expressions
2a(1): something producedespecially : COMMODITY sense 1
(2): something (such as a service) that is marketed or sold as a commodity
b: something resulting from or necessarily following from a set of conditionsa product of his environment
3: the amount, quantity, or total produced
4: CONJUNCTION sense 5

commodity
noun
com·mod·i·ty | \ kə-ˈmä-də-tē \
plural commodities
Definition of commodity

1: an economic good: such as
a: a product of agriculture or mining agricultural commodities like grain and corn
b: an article of commerce especially when delivered for shipment reported the damaged commodities to officials
c: a mass-produced unspecialized product commodity chemicals commodity memory chips
2a: something useful or valuedthat valuable commodity, patiencealso : THING, ENTITY
b: CONVENIENCE, ADVANTAGE… the many commodities incidental to the life of a public office …— Charles Lamb
3: a good or service whose wide availability typically leads to smaller profit margins and diminishes the importance of factors (such as brand name) other than price
4: one that is subject to ready exchange or exploitation within a market… stars as individuals and as commodities of the film industry.— Film Quarterly

store
noun
Definition of store (Entry 2 of 3)
1a: something that is stored or kept for future use
bstores plural : articles (as of food) accumulated for some specific object and drawn upon as needed : STOCK, SUPPLIES
c: something that is accumulated
d: a source from which things may be drawn as needed : a reserve fund
2: STORAGE —usually used with inwhen placing eggs in store— Dublin Sunday Independent
3: VALUE, IMPORTANCEset great store by a partner's opinion
4: a large quantity, supply, or number : ABUNDANCE
5a: STOREHOUSE, WAREHOUSE
bchiefly British : MEMORY sense 4
6: a business establishment where usually diversified goods are kept for retail salea grocery store— compare SHOP

shop
noun, often attributive
\ ˈshäp \
Definition of shop
(Entry 1 of 2)
1: a handicraft establishment : ATELIER
2a: a building or room stocked with merchandise for sale : STORE
bor less commonly shoppe \ ˈshäp \ : a small retail establishment or a department in a large one offering a specified line of goods or servicesa millinery shopa sandwich shop
3: a commercial establishment for the making or repair of goods or machinerymachine shoprepair shop
4a: a school laboratory equipped for industrial arts education
b: the art or science of working with tools and machinery
5a: a business establishment : OFFICEa public relations shop
b: SHOPTALKtalking shop

market
noun, often attributive
mar·ket | \ ˈmär-kət \
Definition of market
(Entry 1 of 2)
1a(1): a meeting together of people for the purpose of trade by private purchase and sale and usually not by auction
(2): the people assembled at such a meeting
b(1): a public place where a market is heldespecially : a place where provisions are sold at wholesalea farmers' market
(2): a retail establishment usually of a specified kinda fish market

---------
Steam offers services, you are not paying for them. Paying indirectly is not the same as purchasing them. Otherwise every-fucking-thing would be considered a product. Are the cows teets my milk come out of part of the product I'm purchasing when I'm buying milk?

This is the dumbest shit I ever heard.

Just cause these stores offer some services doesn't mean jack shit, you're not buying their services, they are using these services to attract business, but it's not something you're paying for directly. Which is the key difference between Product/Commodity & Service/Shop/Market.

This post is a product of the efforts you put into copy and pasting from websites.

The definition of product that you just posted even mentions services being a product.

You most certainly are paying for the services that Steam offers. Where the fuck do you think the money comes from? That revenue cut they take from the developers covers it.

Koushirou · Feb 4, 2019

TJT said:
Better comparison. Do you buy milk from whole foods or public/local grocery store for the shopping experience?

Generally if I have a choice, I will try to buy every grocery I can at Wegmans because their stores are nice and clean they contribute to programs in my community, they source from local farms, they treat their employees very well, as well as many other reasons.

In the opposite way, you have people who boycott Chick-Fil-a, much to their loss, because to them gay-hating is part of the chicken.

Tarrant · Feb 4, 2019

I shop and buy things from certain locations only depending on how I've been treated and how the company presents their brand to the consumer public. also, a brand is in itself, a product. WalMart excs have often referred to their stores and brand as a product.

Ravishing · Feb 4, 2019

Dom said:
This post is a product of the efforts you put into copy and pasting from websites.

The definition of product that you just posted even mentions services being a product.

You most certainly are paying for the services that Steam offers. Where the fuck do you think the money comes from? That revenue cut they take from the developers covers it.

Since the Dictionary didn't work, maybe Wikipedia will help:
Product (business) - Wikipedia

Keep bringing up every definition of Product that isn't relevant to the original discussion. The number of hoops you go through to try and be right is truly amazing.

Since you were so courteous last time, how about this:

You win this time.

1-1.

OU Ariakas · Feb 4, 2019

I just really don't understand how everyone is getting so worked up over this shit because we will all make our choice. Some of us are going to download the Epic store and all the shit that comes with it because we want to play some exclusives while others are going to say fuck that and miss out on those games by choice.

I have not bought a Microsoft or Nintendo console in more than a decade even though there are exclusives on each that I would love to play. I made a decision a long time ago that the exclusives that mattered to me most were on Sony consoles and that most of the MS titles would eventually filter to the PC anyways. That was my decision and I have not regretted it in the intervening years.

On the PC front I decided that I will me much more loyal to good developers and will probably follow them to whatever platforms they choose because I want games to be good again. After the EA acquisition that I would not buy any more Bioware games even though KOTOR, KOTOR2 and ME1 are three of my favorite games of all times. I have recently done the same thing with Blizzard and D3's expansion will be my last piece of support for them because Activision seems to be calling the shots there now. On the other hand, I will now purchase any CD Projekt Red game at full price because they should be rewarded for what they do. If for some reason Cyberpunk 2077 becomes an Epic exclusive then I boot it up and fork over 60 bucks because they are worth it.

Kiki · Feb 4, 2019

Ravishing said:
Since the Dictionary didn't work, maybe Wikipedia will help:
Product (business) - Wikipedia

Keep bringing up every definition of Product that isn't relevant to the original discussion. The number of hoops you go through to try and be right is truly amazing.

Since you were so courteous last time, how about this:

You win this time.

1-1.

From your own fucking link: "A service is also regarded to as a type of product. "

This is a game distribution SERVICE, otherwise known as a product. Now, will you stop arguing about definitions and stop missing the fucking point?

a_skeleton_05 · Feb 4, 2019

OU Ariakas said:
I just really don't understand how everyone is getting so worked up over this shit because we will all make our choice. Some of us are going to download the Epic store and all the shit that comes with it because we want to play some exclusives while others are going to say fuck that and miss out on those games by choice.

I have not bought a Microsoft or Nintendo console in more than a decade even though there are exclusives on each that I would love to play. I made a decision a long time ago that the exclusives that mattered to me most were on Sony consoles and that most of the MS titles would eventually filter to the PC anyways. That was my decision and I have not regretted it in the intervening years.

On the PC front I decided that I will me much more loyal to good developers and will probably follow them to whatever platforms they choose because I want games to be good again. After the EA acquisition that I would not buy any more Bioware games even though KOTOR, KOTOR2 and ME1 are three of my favorite games of all times. I have recently done the same thing with Blizzard and D3's expansion will be my last piece of support for them because Activision seems to be calling the shots there now. On the other hand, I will now purchase any CD Projekt Red game at full price because they should be rewarded for what they do. If for some reason Cyberpunk 2077 becomes an Epic exclusive then I boot it up and fork over 60 bucks because they are worth it.

I don't think people are getting worked up over the actual situation itself, more the opposing opinions on it. It's one thing for something to happen that you don't like, it's an entirely different thing to be told that it's actually good for you despite it clearly not being so from ones own perspective.

When 4A decided to use Denuvo, they already lost my business. This just added onto that decision. They're free to sell wherever and whenever they want, just as I'm free to tell them to go fuck themselves if they want me as a customer. I won't lose sleep over any of this. But to have other people tell me that the blue is green and less choice is pro-consumer is where I get rustled.

a_skeleton_05 · Feb 4, 2019

Also:

More than half of those are just from places like Humble/GMG. But clearly I'm a Steam fanboy with over a thousand games and only arguing from a point of defending them, and not what I personally take issue with. Nevermind the fact that I started the thread and was enthusiastic about another player in the market for competition until the exclusivity shit started.

Ravishing · Feb 4, 2019

Kiki said:
From your own fucking link: "A service is also regarded to as a type of product. "

This is a game distribution SERVICE, otherwise known as a product. Now, will you stop arguing about definitions and stop missing the fucking point?

Boohoo, I can't access my steam friends while playing Metro Exodus, cry some more please.
Just like Dom, you twist and turn context & definitions to suit your narrative.
Where did I ever argue that Service isn't a type of product?

a_skeleton_05 · Feb 4, 2019

Ravishing said:
Boohoo, I can't access my steam friends while playing Metro Exodus, cry some more please.
Just like Dom, you twist and turn context & definitions to suit your narrative.

Words don't stop having meaning just because it doesn't fit your narrative.

Where did I ever argue that Service isn't a type of product?

This entire argument started because you said stores weren't a product. The store and its features is the service.

Kiki · Feb 4, 2019

Ravishing said:
Stores aren't products. STFU with this crap.
The GAME is the product.

right here.

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Epic Games Storefront - A Good Incentive for Piracy

goishen

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meStevo

I think your wife's a bigfoot gus.

a_skeleton_05

Leadsalad

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Vorph

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Ravishing

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Koushirou

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TJT

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a_skeleton_05

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OU Ariakas

Diet Dr. Pepper Enjoyer

Kiki

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Kiki

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