EQ Never

Convo

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
8,761
613
Game Over.
Not too familiar with him. Why do you say that? Was he on EQ2?

As for FTP model. I think they just make it a server option and also make a server option to sub. I would just sub assuming the FTP option had a lot of ptw items.
 

Daidraco

Golden Baronet of the Realm
9,258
9,359
- a character progression system that is designed with a 10 year run in mind and doesnt break down with the first expansion. If you have classes, have a common pool of abilities/passives that everyone can learn. AAs are great.
- make the acquisition of abilities part of the gameplay instead of auto-granting them or just selling them at trainers. Learning basic slashes at the warrior school is fine, to learn the advanced skills you need to find a mentor and get him to like you enough to teach you. have enough diversity/choices in the game that not everyone seeks the same mentors (faction barriers can make that unlikely anyway, and someone putting in a lot of effort to befriend a wood elf mentor as a troll would stand out like that iksar running around freeport). Have something like lockpicking in the game (with force, magic or thief skills) and then have thieves easy ways to find a trainer, but a hard to find/convince trainer for the other characters.
Alternate Advancement in its current form with EverQuest-Retail can go eat a dick. Thats terrible game play in my opinion, to stop at certain levels and just stay in a zone like "The Hole" for a week grinding several hundred AA's. The idea of AA's on paper sounds awesome, though. I just feel that it needs a system similar to what you have in mind for skills or tied to achievements. Skill points in Guild Wars 2 was handled pretty well. You just journey across the zone and do those challenges. Or instead of that system, link AA's to achievements. You clear a dungeon for the first time, you're granted an AA. Solid ideas that keep the amount of AA's at a very reasonable cap and keep the players moving and exploring.
 

Flipmode

EQOA Refugee
2,091
312
Alternate Advancement in its current form with EverQuest-Retail can go eat a dick. Thats terrible game play in my opinion, to stop at certain levels and just stay in a zone like "The Hole" for a week grinding several hundred AA's. The idea of AA's on paper sounds awesome, though. I just feel that it needs a system similar to what you have in mind for skills or tied to achievements. Skill points in Guild Wars 2 was handled pretty well. You just journey across the zone and do those challenges. Or instead of that system, link AA's to achievements. You clear a dungeon for the first time, you're granted an AA. Solid ideas that keep the amount of AA's at a very reasonable cap and keep the players moving and exploring.
Why shouldn't AA reflect the amount of time invested on a character? There is nothing wrong with grinding per se. We grind for gear, achievenemt titles etc. AA should be no different. It puts new players at a disadvantage but you have to have some way to entice players at level cap even with a slow leveling curve. If all your game offers capped players is running 5 mans, raids and PVP then you've failed.
 

Big_w_powah

Trakanon Raider
1,887
750
Why shouldn't AA reflect the amount of time invested on a character? There is nothing wrong with grinding per se. We grind for gear, achievenemt titles etc. AA should be no different. It puts new players at a disadvantage but you have to have some way to entice players at level cap even with a slow leveling curve. If all your game offers capped players is running 5 mans, raids and PVP then you've failed.
WoW disagrees.
 

Tol_sl

shitlord
759
0
I played shards of Dalya early on and I was really impressed with how they changed the stuff they had to work with. Classes felt similar, yet different enough to feel like a new experience. (My beastlord had a disc that let his pet tank and hold aggro while I was in melee range, that was pretty incredible to me at the time seeing how poorly done most other emulators were.) It kind of gave me the vibe at the time that either sony didn't really put much effort in, or that they didn't want to shake things up too much. Either way, it felt like they could have done a LOT more with EQ mid-2000.

As for AA, thats actually one of the few things I still love about EQ. I'm at the point where I just play the game normally, not grind, but at at the end of the session I'll have some AA to throw around on stuff I don't really need, but might be cool to click now and then or see number go up in my stats a bit. I realize half the stuff is totally worthless, but it's kind of nice coming back to a character every other year when I get the urge to play for 3-4 months and feel like I never really left
 

Flipmode

EQOA Refugee
2,091
312
WoW disagrees.
WoW is free to disagree but it's an anomoly. All the others who have tried to copy WoW with that formula have went down in flames. Its no secret that almost everyone who plays EQ clamours for more depth than WoW offers. I want to set my character apart, not just through gear, but through time invested and AA if necessary. I'd like to assign my skill points to tailor my character to my playstyle. WoW works but they sacrificed character choice for homogenous convienience. But thats what their target was. They have a lot of games like that now. I would kinda like to have a game with some depth back now.
 

Convo

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
8,761
613
WoW disagrees.
They just found a different way to keep players busy. I think AA's should be just what they say they are Alternate Advancement. It should be just another way for a player to hit content that they might now otherwise be able to play in. The causal Player should be able to build their stats up to a level where they can run the same group zone as the decked out raid gear player.
 

Mr Creed

Too old for this shit
2,380
276
Well I wasnt suggesting to use EQ1 AA as they are, but some system that is not gear or level related would be nice. I did like the way GW2 set up the skill points, there just arent all that many skills (compared to GW1) so anyone interested has them all pretty quick. Think of my idea more like EVEs skill system where at some point you only diversify your skill set or buy the last few percents to maxing a skill set at incredibly high rates compared to the first. Again though in EVE you only buy the skill books somewhere, the key for me would be that unlocking the skill choices comes through gameplay content before you spend your points to enable them. I like the way PS2 certs are set up too, as in you have basic skills (guns) and improve them with more choices (costs for things you can also buy with station cash are debatable).
 

Flipmode

EQOA Refugee
2,091
312
I enjoyed having to farm for certain spells in EQOA. They weren't just given to you. You had to do something to get them. Little things like that add depth to a game.
 

Convo

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
8,761
613
I guess the EQN facebook game rumors can be put to rest...

http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/12...-planetside-2/
Plus 1 for us.. Any comment that kills the possible idea of EQN being casual is good in my book

I enjoyed having to farm for certain spells in EQOA. They weren't just given to you. You had to do something to get them. Little things like that add depth to a game.
I said the same thing in one of these EQN threads lol. I hated how expensive my high level Wizard nuke was but my guild needed my DPS on raids so they bought me it. You just can't find all those factors coming together in a game anymore.
 

Randin

Trakanon Raider
1,925
878
- make the acquisition of abilities part of the gameplay instead of auto-granting them or just selling them at trainers. Learning basic slashes at the warrior school is fine, to learn the advanced skills you need to find a mentor and get him to like you enough to teach you. have enough diversity/choices in the game that not everyone seeks the same mentors (faction barriers can make that unlikely anyway, and someone putting in a lot of effort to befriend a wood elf mentor as a troll would stand out like that iksar running around freeport). Have something like lockpicking in the game (with force, magic or thief skills) and then have thieves easy ways to find a trainer, but a hard to find/convince trainer for the other characters.
This plays into my biggest wish for EQN: I want the game to feel like a world, and class design is the area I most want serious improvement in. Classes ought to feel like simulations of the fantasy archetypes they're named for, and not just have that archetype be a skin slapped on the same old class mechanics. That means being faithful to that archetype in the abilities it has, how it gets those abilities, have mechanics in place that drive the player to act more-or-less in-character, and so on.

So, coming back to skill acquisition, it needs to fit the class. So, warriors might get their skills by finding a trainer (at low levels this could just be the drill sergeant of the local militia, at high levels you might need to seek out a reclusive swordmaster), and then having to go through some sort of training sequence where you're taught about the skill; clerics may need to perform quests (real quests, not just "collect ten bear asses") to please their god, and be rewarded new spells by that god (and, of course, a good chunk of a cleric's spells should be specific to their god); and wizards ought to get their spells through research, learning obscure languages and finding arcane formulas they can put together to form new spells.
 

Convo

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
8,761
613
I would actually not mind obtaining the occasional skill from a group zone boss that specialized in your particular class. Kind of like Mega man.
 

Daidraco

Golden Baronet of the Realm
9,258
9,359
They just found a different way to keep players busy. I think AA's should be just what they say they are Alternate Advancement. It should be just another way for a player to hit content that they might now otherwise be able to play in. The causal Player should be able to build their stats up to a level where they can run the same group zone as the decked out raid gear player.
Thats exactly my point.

Flipmode, a contributing factor towards EverQuests decline is that people take breaks from a game or games period and that is normal. Come back and now they have another 500-1000 AA points that they have to earn. Thats a turn off to a lot of people, just like the gear resets in WoW are every 6 months. Ive said it every WoW expansion "Oh look, a green just replaced my Heroic level epic." I may never be able to explain this like Zehn does, but EverQuests form of AA is about as ball slamming as you can get. I can also see that we have different opinions on how you think players should be rewarded. I personally like games that reward skill. You like games that reward time invested. A mix of the two would be fine for me - but Ill never force myself to sit at the computer for an entire day ever again. As for skill; I have no idea who you are but waiting for a pinata to spawn isnt the epitome of it.
 

Convo

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
8,761
613
Thats exactly my point.

Flipmode, a contributing factor towards EverQuests decline is that people take breaks from a game or games period and that is normal. Come back and now they have another 500-1000 AA points that they have to earn. Thats a turn off to a lot of people, just like the gear resets in WoW are every 6 months. Ive said it every WoW expansion "Oh look, a green just replaced my Heroic level epic." I may never be able to explain this like Zehn does, but EverQuests form of AA is about as ball slamming as you can get. I can also see that we have different opinions on how you think players should be rewarded. I personally like games that reward skill. You like games that reward time invested. A mix of the two would be fine for me - but Ill never force myself to sit at the computer for an entire day ever again. As for skill; I have no idea who you are but waiting for a pinata to spawn isnt the epitome of it.
Be cool if they rewarded both ways. Like you said.. clearing a zone and possibly a form of XP. I don't think many would argue with that.
 

Flipmode

EQOA Refugee
2,091
312
Thats exactly my point.

Flipmode, a contributing factor towards EverQuests decline is that people take breaks from a game or games period and that is normal. Come back and now they have another 500-1000 AA points that they have to earn. Thats a turn off to a lot of people, just like the gear resets in WoW are every 6 months. Ive said it every WoW expansion "Oh look, a green just replaced my Heroic level epic." I may never be able to explain this like Zehn does, but EverQuests form of AA is about as ball slamming as you can get. I can also see that we have different opinions on how you think players should be rewarded. I personally like games that reward skill. You like games that reward time invested. A mix of the two would be fine for me - but Ill never force myself to sit at the computer for an entire day ever again. As for skill; I have no idea who you are but waiting for a pinata to spawn isnt the epitome of it.
I am not as big a proponent of time invested as you have made me out to be. I just don't like the idea of any players time being meaningless or made trivial by eazy mode stuff. In a gear based game, gear resets are inevitable. Skill based is all well and good but how do you implement that on a large scale MMO? The majority of players couldn't hack it in a skill based game. Add to that things like lag, latency etc and you have a problem.

The solution to the new player returning is to use some AA potions to increase the rate they gain them at or something similar. Why would they expect to come back from a break or time off and be at the same point as their friends who didn't quit? What else could be done to make the returning player happy while not shitting on the time invested by their friends? I am willing to listen to any perspectives on this.
 
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They'll have to monetize the game somehow. You better get that reality into your head this year or you will be dissapointed.
I don't think anyone really cares about spending money though, none of us are cheap, we paid a monthly subscription for EQ back when that was unheard of. And I think most of us would be happy to pay it even today. All we care about is that they monetize it in a way that earns them money without harming the integrity of the game. The subscriptions was perfect for that because everyone paid equally, and then everything in game was equal too. The way it works now in games like Vanguard is pretty horrible, because what you get out of the game and what your character becomes, is exactly proportional to the amount of real life money you spend. And that sucks.

It ends up where nothing is special anymore. If some high level player swooshes past you on a glowing mount with a flaming sword, you don't think 'wooooa badass' like you did in EQ, and dream about grouping with him to slaughter some dungeons. You think, 'that's probably some new player who was level 1 last week but now is 50 because he spends all his time at +200% xp rate, and had raid gear and flying mount since level 1'.

Do we really wanna play games like that? I'd much rather pay a subscription to avoid that.
 

Mr Creed

Too old for this shit
2,380
276
I don't think anyone really cares about spending money though, none of us are cheap, we paid a monthly subscription for EQ back when that was unheard of. And I think most of us would be happy to pay it even today. All we care about is that they monetize it in a way that earns them money without harming the integrity of the game. The subscriptions was perfect for that because everyone paid equally, and then everything in game was equal too. The way it works now in games like Vanguard is pretty horrible, because what you get out of the game and what your character becomes, is exactly proportional to the amount of real life money you spend. And that sucks.

It ends up where nothing is special anymore. If some high level player swooshes past you on a glowing mount with a flaming sword, you don't think 'wooooa badass' like you did in EQ, and dream about grouping with him to slaughter some dungeons. You think, 'that's probably some new player who was level 1 last week but now is 50 because he spends all his time at +200% xp rate, and had raid gear and flying mount since level 1'.

Do we really wanna play games like that?I'd much rather pay a subscription to avoid that.
I absolutely agree, I am on the side of "would play $20/month for an immerisve world" instead of playing the latest theme park. Thing is, SOE already said the new vision is F2P, so it will be F2P. But they'll want to earn money too.

Start suggesting good ways they can meet their income goals, SOE will read them and those ideas end up in the game shop instead of various +gooder swords. Character re-skins, various mounts and vanity pets (only if going the WoW route where hundreds of those are also available through gameplay), bank and inventory space, character slots. DLC for new content updates. What else can they put in and ask money from us without crossing a line?

If they are smart they look at various cash shops and copy from the good ones while avoiding the rest. EQ1 and EQ2 as well as TOR mostly feature the things they need to avoid, like being unable to wear items you looted without paying up. League of Legends and PS2 have a good approach to the F2P mindset imo, GW2 is decent too but just barely. Unfortunately I havent played the other failures we witnessed over the years enough to comment on their F2P models.

And for the other topic, imo they need to design with a very flat power curve that feature many sidegrades or situational stuff. Then you can get away with alot more AA creep. Think more like in EVE where you can specialize to "close enough to perfect" performance fairly fast (for EVE) but have many different directions to pick from and the last 5% take much longer on the big skills.