EQ Never

Deisun_sl

shitlord
118
0
Mkopec,
I'm not sure I agree with you on the long travel thing. What is defined by long travel? Can you get anywhere in the game in less than an hour? I haven't played WoW in a long time but I'm pretty sure you can get anywhere in the game in like 20 minutes. To me that's not long travel.

I want an mmo where if you have to travel from one end of the world to the other that it should be this long long journey that would take many days (yes, to that extreme). I think if you have very interesting environments with great night/day cycles and weather/environment effects with fun stops along the way to your destination it can feel very fun and very immersive. Obviously at later levels having a wizard that can group teleport people closer, somewhat like EQ did it.

It would have to just be this monstrous sandbox. Like, think of walking out of the gates of a little town in the middle of the desert and all you see is dunes of sand and wind blowing the sand around.

I don't agree with just being able to teleport everywhere and get there within 20 minutes, it kills immersion big time for me.
 

Deisun_sl

shitlord
118
0
Meh, maybe not big time but it definitely doesn't add immersion.
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Flipmode

EQOA Refugee
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312
Im thinking along the lines of sandbox, non instanced content. Fast travel from one end of the world to another would allow a guild to lock down most of the content and that is a huge problem.
 

Flipmode

EQOA Refugee
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312
So lets start by asking a few questions:

1. Why did the devs take long travel out of the equation?

2. Why did the devs go to a BoE loot system?

3. Why did the devs speed up the leveling process?

Answers to these questions could shed some insight as a lot of us on these forums disagree with all three changes.
But let me answer my own questions with my guesses

1. They did this to cater to people who have limited time to play. While not a wrong, they allowed people to warp all over the world and complete content perhaps faster than they should and/or monopolize said content.

2. They added this to combat the growing botting menace. I've read others say that if rare loot dropped in an open world game off rare named mobs, then said item would be camped 24/7 by botters. That may or may not be true but whats the alternatives?

3. They sped the leveling process up because of the same reason they created fast travel. For people with limited time to play to feel like they accomplished something. Seems all they accomplished is players plowing thru all the content at insane speeds and then quitting for boredom as they can't keep putting out content at the pace players consume it. Also, should the genre be catering to people with only an hour to play per night? I dont think so. That's what single player games and lobby based games are for, IMO. You have to realize that there is someone who can devote all their time to a game and you will never be able to keep up with them. I dont even try these days. I accept the things I can accomplish with my character in the time I have to play.
 

Grim1

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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3. They sped the leveling process up because of the same reason they created fast travel. For people with limited time to play to feel like they accomplished something.Seems all they accomplished is players plowing thru all the content at insane speeds and then quitting for boredomas they can't keep putting out content at the pace players consume it.
Short sighted devs are their own worst enemy.
 

shabushabu

Molten Core Raider
1,408
185
I never understood the shortening of leveling curves over time... other than ( when wow was doing it ) to flood people into expansions so they buy them. Moorguard was explaining on the VG forums how games evolve and such as a reason for increasing XP rates... IN a game like vanguard, which will likely never see an expansion and more content 1-40 than any game i have ever seen... I fail to see the logic at all... Maybe someone in here has a thought on leveling curves and such... to me, i would want my players in the BEST parts of my content for the longest possible amount of time...
 

Excidium

Trakanon Raider
832
1,276
My biggest issue with modern MMOs is the linear fashion of dungeons. I don't get to live in that dungeon, learning all the ins and outs. I don't have to learn where people tend to camp, don't have any excitement trying to find where that illusive monster is with that rare loot. Add in a GPS mini map, and all those years of playing first person shooters learning maps inside and out is no longer a skill that gives me an advantage in an MMO. I want to be a bit on edge when roaming through a dungeon, where a risk vs reward is high that goes beyond the fight mechanics. How many people went to PoFear just to check it out full aware that they can't easily leave if they can't gate, and that they can lose their equipment and XP.
 

Flipmode

EQOA Refugee
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312
Personally, I hate the first person view so I don't care if it stays third person. I like seeing my character.
 

Randin

Trakanon Raider
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881
But let me answer my own questions with my guesses

1. They did this to cater to people who have limited time to play. While not a wrong, they allowed people to warp all over the world and complete content perhaps faster than they should and/or monopolize said content.

3. They sped the leveling process up because of the same reason they created fast travel. For people with limited time to play to feel like they accomplished something. Seems all they accomplished is players plowing thru all the content at insane speeds and then quitting for boredom as they can't keep putting out content at the pace players consume it. Also, should the genre be catering to people with only an hour to play per night? I dont think so. That's what single player games and lobby based games are for, IMO. You have to realize that there is someone who can devote all their time to a game and you will never be able to keep up with them. I dont even try these days. I accept the things I can accomplish with my character in the time I have to play.
It seems, then, that the key to making meaningful changes to the genre is changing what the meaning of "accomplishing something" is in the mind of the majority of the playerbase. As it stands now, the only outlets to get that feeling in MMOs is to gain a level, or get an item with +betterer stats; if you're not doing that, then you're wasting time (or rather, your time is being wasted by the devs). If we could get a game that wasn't ultimately about turning small numbers into big numbers in the most efficient manner, then maybe we could get a game where the majority of the playerbase was willing to take a little more time to smell the roses.
 

nevergone

Low IQ Vegan Pacifist
<Gold Donor>
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It seems, then, that the key to making meaningful changes to the genre is changing what the meaning of "accomplishing something" is in the mind of the majority of the playerbase. As it stands now, the only outlets to get that feeling in MMOs is to gain a level, or get an item with +betterer stats; if you're not doing that, then you're wasting time (or rather, your time is being wasted by the devs). If we could get a game that wasn't ultimately about turning small numbers into big numbers in the most efficient manner, then maybe we could get a game where the majority of the playerbase was willing to take a little more time to smell the roses.
I don't know - I think there's been more examples of accomplishment than simply gaining levels, stats, or items in a variety of games - though you'd be hard pressed to find a single game that combined a variety of different ways of accomplishing things. I've personally most enjoyed games that set milestones for character development where upon progressing to a certain point; either through gaining experience, exploring a specific area, defeating a specific encounter; your character has new abilities unlocked. A pretty good example of this would be the Zelda series where each dungeon rewarded the player with a new tool in their arsenal that would eventually play a part in further progression.

Unfortunately, past attempts to implement these types of features in MMOs have been presented as staunch hurdles to character progression (keys, flagging, etc) or temporary abilities that lack coherence with the "story" of your individual character (ie; jet packs that suddenly appear on your character's back and enable them to rocket jump through an encounter, or dragon mounts that appear out of nowhere that your character did absolutely nothing to "earn" as seen in the Malygos encounter in WotLK).

The features players unlock should be meaningful and cool - either granting the player new abilities or a different way of playing the game. The closest example I can think of that was actually somewhat successful was in City of Heroes (RIP), where characters could unlock special temporary powers by completing specific missions. While the implementation could have been a bit smoother and the abilities could have been more impactful on the player experience, the premise was still there.
 

nevergone

Low IQ Vegan Pacifist
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Personally, I hate the first person view so I don't care if it stays third person. I like seeing my character.
I wish I could play in first person view again; it really did help to establish a more immersive (and sometimes claustrophobic) perspective on the game world.
Try as I might though, I always end up clicking the mouse wheel back a couple notches to orient my character more effectively.
 

Laura

Lord Nagafen Raider
582
109
I wouldn't play a game with a system like that. You shouldn't be forcing someone to play a certain way during their level experience and if they don't... completely gimp their character. Also, it would make me NEVER want to make an Alt, which is bad for a game's longevity and replayability.

If you want to slow down the levelling process just... make it take longer to level.

If you want someone to explore your world just... make it interesting to explore (rare items, better currency drops, faster respawns, good AE areas, harder mobs with higher exp modifiers, lower hp but higher damage areas, etc etc etc. Depending on your group make up certain areas will be better suited for exp gain)
I agree. I don't like the idea of "If you don't do it now, you will lose it forever" I hate restriction.

I think EQ did it better with the Skill System. You can still rush to be leveled up but your Skills were pretty low for your level and you were somewhat gimped BUT nothing is lost forever you can still improve your skill anytime you want.
 

Laura

Lord Nagafen Raider
582
109
Dunno I can see a game with levels working for me. The problem with the level process in recent games is, that it is so fucking fast, the quest based shit and BoE gear. Its fast and not fun. No chance to optimize before maxlevel, no thought involved.
In games that are slow paced in terms of leveling, you have more reason to get gear and find better spots in lower levels. In WoW classic even, taking out maybe levels 55-60, there was no reason to look for better spots. If I look for another spot for 3 hours, I can easily make a level in that time, maybe more. Same for gear, apart maybe from weapons. I did the dungeons as long as I had quests for them, afterwards it was just a waste of time. XP was meh and the items I got were often good, but outleveled by the next day. Same with AH stuff, everything BoE, so buy stuff, money gone two days later when you replace that stuff with one of the 1000 greens that drop.

A game that would have a slower pace, more open world and leveling and itemization would probably easily encourage me again to explore, both world, items and builds.
I don't think you dislike "levels" what you dislike is the pace, level-curve and itemization.

and I agree with you, I HATE these three in every MMORPG released post WoW.

Because the level-curve is so fast there's really no point in investing time on gear. Since reaching max level is pretty easy and fast everything else before max level is just a waste since it's going to be substituted very fast anyway.

Itemization in WoW and beyond became ridiculous. The green items dropping like candy, not only gives you an annoying time micromanaging your bag, it actually takes out the excitement of finding new gear. Why do trash mobs drop gears that may upgrade your current one?? (unless you're just starting out). Trash mobs should NEVER drop good gear. Also, remove this "World Item Table" bullshit from any game. Items should be relative to the named/boss NPC's item table and unique to them.

Pace of games is so fast that you really don't get a chance to relax. "You must level up to max", "You must deliver this quest", "Do this dungeon here, it's just one click away.". This just move too fast and too many things happening at the same time and your quest journal is usually 30/30 already and will never decrease... damn.


I say make leveling slower, much slower and make worthwhile items dropped by bosses/nameds and these items are unique to them (it should make sense Lore-Wise). This will make every level worthwhile because items will stay for weeks if not month which would help you during your journey and won't be a waste of investment. Slow down the pace of the game, let us just take a breath and talk to each other for crying out loud.
 

Grim1

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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Personally, I hate the first person view so I don't care if it stays third person. I like seeing my character.
Third person view is the beginning of the death of immersion.

In first person games I play dudes, looking up and out at the world and sky the artists have dreamed up. Sometimes even feeling as if I might actually be there, if only for a short time.

Didn't play chick toons until playing 3rd person games, where the only view is of the character's butt and the nearby dirt. If I have to look at butts and dirt for the whole f'ing game then it might as well be female butts, because dirt sucks.
 

Laura

Lord Nagafen Raider
582
109
So lets start by asking a few questions:

1. Why did the devs take long travel out of the equation?

2. Why did the devs go to a BoE loot system?

3. Why did the devs speed up the leveling process?

Answers to these questions could shed some insight as a lot of us on these forums disagree with all three changes.
To be honest and I hope I don't offend anyone. I think most of the devs behind many recent MMORPGs are simply CLUELESS.

This answers your three questions. :p
 

Laura

Lord Nagafen Raider
582
109
Personally, I hate the first person view so I don't care if it stays third person. I like seeing my character.
Do you know how many element First Person View brings on the table?

A LOT.

Both are totally different experiences and your preference is understandable but FPS is NOT only what most people think it is (just a camera thing). It is NOT.
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Pancreas

Vyemm Raider
1,125
3,818
Big long rambling rant about MMO's ... GO!

MMO's need to stop looking to single player games to determine what mechanic, or character advancement model to steal next.

A single player game will always provide the superior gaming experience for an individual. From detailed story lines, to perfectly placed and timed skill advancement, to incremental expansion of the game space, every element can be controlled in order to ensure the player is receiving the maximum impact from each design decision. A single player game is there to offer the best marriage of story, art and gameplay possible.

So where do single player games fall short? Single player games struggle hard to offer a compelling reason to play them more than once. About the best they can come up with is to tell the same story from different points of view, have branching story lines, or increase the stats on all of the challenges and rewards and let you do a new game +++++.

Single player games also offer little to no chance at social interaction and are hard pressed to offer a truly random or unscripted experience.

So... when an mmo builds itself around single player gameplay mechanics, and offers a narrative that targets one player at a time, and tries to recreate that single player story telling experience on a mass scale... it is going to suffer an identity crisis.

On the one hand there is going to be a volume of content, hand crafted by the developers, that will move the player through the world on some leveling adventure and character advancement saga, but once this story ends, the game either turns into something completely different, or stagnates until the developers release the sequel, err expansion pack to their leveling adventure game.

In-between these adventure games, there is usually some attempt at social gaming through pvp or raid encounters. However both of these elements suffer greatly because of the single player focused leveling mechanic. Pvp is not allowed to go outside to play, lest it disrupt the leveling narrative, and becomes some isolated affair. Raids tend to take on the aspect of giant sized single player boss fights, just with a lot of people attempting them concurrently.

Scripted content is time consuming to produce, and requires some additional mechanic to encourage players to use it more than once.

Therefore MMO's should always play to their strengths, those strengths being social interaction, opportunity for unscripted content and player driven encounters (pvp and other methods of players creating objectives for other players), the ability to create a sense of permanence from one's actions and allow those actions to be perceived by other players.

And yet, these strengths and unique facets of the MMO space get the least amount of focus in just about every title released in order for some half assed leveling adventure game to steal the spot light for 60-100 levels of the player's time.

A few things could be done to remedy this.

First, character advancement needs to take a back seat. That's right, leveling should not be the game until you hit the hard cap and then start playing a different game with the same name. Leveling should just occur as a result of playing the game, and should have a soft cap that gets exponentially harder to reach. This prevents the hurry up and wait mechanic of the unlocking level scheme that most mmo's use with their expansions.

Second, other players need to be integral to the game play experience from second one of day one. Nothing worth doing should be a totally solo experience. That is not to say that you need to have other people actively working side by side all the time. But every goal and achievement pursued by an individual should be created, challenged or in some way influenced by other players. So when you are down in the depths of an abandoned mine that has become infested with goblins, the reason you are in the mine should be one of the following:

A.) Because another player is looking for a rare ore that might only be found there.
B.) Because another player has decided to use the mine as a base to set up his goblin army.
C.) Because a player built settlement nearby is worried the goblins may start attacking soon.
D.) All of the above.

Third, developers need to stop worrying about people messing with each other and putting up a million artificial barriers to ensure everyone has the exact same experience. They should be giving the players MORE tools to interact with each other. Player interaction should find it's way into almost every single aspect of the game. This is an mmo, why anyone would go through all of the effort of creating a game space that can be accessed simultaneously by thousands of players, and yet put glass walls between all of them so they can't do much more than look at and talk to one another is beyond me. It seems like such a waste of effort.

The smart developer will figure out ways to keep the experiences mostly positive. Or to incrementally introduce a player to complex interaction systems so they are not overwhelmed. But ultimately the training wheels should come off and people should come face to face with one another and not be certain what the other side might do.

Fourth, the power disparity between two individuals should be minor in the grand scheme of things. A single player's character should only be able to become so powerful. The real power should come from numbers, and then again through coordination. 10 brand new players should be able to pose a threat to any individual if they play their cards right and have a good plan of attack. The chances of true noobs being able to achieve this is minor as a veteran player will being taking precautions to prevent such silliness. However, anyone who lets their guard down should be at risk.

This right here will encourage player cooperation more than anything else. You need to band together to win at just about anything. If someone complains that they can't do anything by themselves, remind them what type of game they are playing.

That's enough for now... but other elements to tackle would be the role of NPC's in this environment, narrative delivery and world events, possible player roles.
 

Ukerric

Bearded Ape
<Silver Donator>
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The features players unlock should be meaningful and cool - either granting the player new abilities or a different way of playing the game.
Two games at least had some of that.

GW1 with signets. In GW1 (like TSW), you have a number of known actions, and you pick up to 8 to use in any given adventure. Some are free, some can be purchased, and the important ("elite") ones must be obtained by defeating the appropriate boss (some are unique to one boss, some are used by a couple of bosses, offering a choice). You did not need all of them, but some were very important for given builds.

LOTRO with "virtues" (combo stats). You had a dozen or more virtues possible, you could pick 5 of them. You increased rank in any given virtue by doing specific achievements like "complete 10 quests in Ered Luin" or "Kill 100 Angmarim". All ranks were interchangeable (it didn't matter which you did, you got your +1 charity).

You can combine these into a non-levelling progression. But people do like their levels, alas.
 

Gecko_sl

shitlord
1,482
0
developers need to stop worrying about people messing with each other and putting up a million artificial barriers to ensure everyone has the exact same experience. They should be giving the players MORE tools to interact with each other. Player interaction should find it's way into almost every single aspect of the game. This is an mmo, why anyone would go through all of the effort of creating a game space that can be accessed simultaneously by thousands of players, and yet put glass walls between all of them so they can't do much more than look at and talk to one another is beyond me. It seems like such a waste of effort.
.
I agree with most of your points, and they sound very close to my personal next gen MMO design goals that I've repeated in this thread multiple times of player driven content via personally owned areas reinforced by central game quests with more skill and social based content and a minimal need for mudflation, alts, and static quest hubs. NPCs should primarly be merchants or monster lords hired and setup by other players. Wealth should be gained very slowly and primarily via other players and invading their lairs.

The one thing I have difficulty fixing in my design and the quoted point you are making above is really a stickler for me and the lynchpin for making this type of design successful. A game does need to push more social and group play, but if there's one thing that's been seen in every MMO, it's that there will be a group of gamers who push the boundaries and in any sandbox MMOs attempt to grief your normals.

I'm not sure the smartest designer or developer out there can really see what malicious fun is in store for their mainstay player base from that .1% whose whole goal in an open world game is to screw up someone elses fun.