Flipmode
EQOA Refugee
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What does Timmy care as long as he has fun leveling those 14 hours a week? His time restrictions obviously won't allow him to be on the bleeding edge of content anyways. So what's the gripe?
EQ Never
- Thread starter Convo
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Convo
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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If the game is fun and the player experience is unque thorough out why does it matter??
Sure, tedium is not needed, but you should also not replace tedium with something that makes it super easy. I never thought of farming keys as tedium. Even when sitting in some random Kunark zone waiting for a bag to spawn on the ground. I used that time productively. The only way its a tedium (for me) is when grinding an alt to get progressed, however that problem will be 100% fixed in EQN.
Kirun
Buzzfeed Editor
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GW2 was a game that is a great example of the need for longer leveling curves. There weresomany zones and points of exploration/secrets to discover, that it really would have benefited from slower leveling. Before you knew it, you were level 80, because the game just kept throwing EXP at you. I don't understand how developers don't realize how little of their leveling content gets utilized, simply because the leveling process occurs so quickly now.
I am not sure how you define average joe. But as someone who works 40 hours a week I could probably put another 40 or so hours into the game per week if necessary. 3-4 hours on days that i worked, and 8-12 on days that I dont. I would consider that to be average joe. Only because I consider hardcore to be 12+ hours, 7 days/wk.
Flipmode
EQOA Refugee
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I still don't see where we disagree. I'm AGREEING with you. I just think there are a few mechanics that could be done away with. Namely week/month long mob camps for items, flagging etc. That's our only point of contention from what I can see, with my 3rd grade reading comprehension and all...dude.
ZyyzYzzy
RIP USA
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It is fine as long as there are ways to progress you character outside of normal leveling.
Fight
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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You guys aren't being realistic. People don't want to feel stagnant. If they put in an 8 hour play session, they want to see progress, advancement, and gain power. You can't just say, "the gameplay is good, so who cares how long it takes to level" unless you want people to burn out.
I think Vanilla WoW, if you remove all other factors outside of time-to-level progression, did it the best of any MMO ever. Again, just purely speaking from the perspective of time put in, to levels go out. The fact that they did an always visible, screen-wide exp bar helped as well. Every kill, you saw that bitch move.
I think Vanilla WoW, if you remove all other factors outside of time-to-level progression, did it the best of any MMO ever. Again, just purely speaking from the perspective of time put in, to levels go out. The fact that they did an always visible, screen-wide exp bar helped as well. Every kill, you saw that bitch move.
Flipmode
EQOA Refugee
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So rush to max level so you can feel progress, then quit due to boredom and have nothing to do or get tired of the repetitive endgame. That's better how?
These "tedious" aspects of EQ, such as waiting for hours for some shitty fucking no drop item to spawn on the ground. That was not much you could do except talk to friends in game/read forums/do whatever. However what it did require is a break from killing shit, camping a dungeon for that piece of loot or xp that you were looking for. Once you got the item off the ground you could go back to killing shit. It made dungeoning a little more "special". I am not saying that this exact timesink is required in a game, but something that gives the player that aspect of "being in a dungeon/grinding xp/loot is special because I don't always get to do it in this game" is a positive thing.
Also, you called me out first sir. Maybe you should go back and read that? <3
Convo
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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I've said it before.. It's all relevant. I mean, in EQ the levels were slow.. but say while you were on a hell level you came across a new ability or clicky or whatever else that advances your character. It's not the same as gaining 2 levels in a 4 hour gaming session but it's still something. To me progress is progress. if I got half a level in EQ for 6 hours, I felt it was still progress. I think people just want something to change with their character every time they log. Be it level, ability or item. I don't need that instant gratification every session
Grim1
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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I would prefer a very long leveling curve, but it requires that there be real content all along the path. One of my favorite times in EQ was questing for low level SK gear in CT. It was good gear for the level and lasted me a long time.
The problem with today's leveling speeds is they make getting mid level gear irrelevant. Crafting mid level gear is also a waste of time. You out level anything worth while so fast that getting decent mid level gear is pointless. And think of all that wasted dev time.
Either you make levels take a long hall like old EQ or eliminate them. This bullcrap WoW style leveling we have now is stupid.
ZyyzYzzy
RIP USA
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Like I said that pace of leveling would be fine, but there would need to be a large number of ways to alternatively progress and the game world would need to be huge.
I wouldn't mind gaining a level a week or even a month if in that time I was able to help change the game world. Help a town grow, or a mountain become inhabited by wayward dorfs. In the process is gain exp and also maybe get a unique ability or spell. Hell if the world is big enough let traveling have so.e sort of progress associated with it (not dumb elite achievements). Been in a mountain killing and questing? Maybe you gain skill in recognizing dorf runes and can discover areas and caves more easily in mountainous regions.
I wouldn't mind gaining a level a week or even a month if in that time I was able to help change the game world. Help a town grow, or a mountain become inhabited by wayward dorfs. In the process is gain exp and also maybe get a unique ability or spell. Hell if the world is big enough let traveling have so.e sort of progress associated with it (not dumb elite achievements). Been in a mountain killing and questing? Maybe you gain skill in recognizing dorf runes and can discover areas and caves more easily in mountainous regions.
Funny. I did this exact thing in vanilla wow. I grinded up to 60 on my warrior...mostly solo, realized that was the gayest thing ever and quit. I did not feel any sense of progress or gratification by hitting 60 in wow. I don't understand how someone can feel as if they advanced or progressed while playing solo in a multiplayer game.
Mr Creed
Too old for this shit
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Timmy is the first to care because EVERY MMO he ever played was designed for rushing through to level cap because the game begins there, and then repeating the same small list of activities for months until it was replaced by a new, similar list. That is literally all that Timmy knows and expects from MMOs.
I think you underestimate how hard it is to sell a long leveling curve to people that expect the leveling time to be an entry fee into the actual game. Leveling *being* the game doesnt occur to those people and they treat it that way. That also makes sure they dont come around and realize they're doing it wrong and start playing instead of racing through.
Just remember the threads about early GW2 and Neverwinter online. Might have been ok for GW2 if you aimed for WvW dominance but PVE-wise you miss out. And especially the latter was ridiculous with many people boring themselves through levels in the foundry instead of just playing. I've said that before but i think you need to sledge hammer that attitude away by simply not having levels. EQN aims to replaced old expectations with something new, I hope level-based advancement goes to the way of the dodo.
Edit: GW2s downscaling is a great feature to keep content interesting for later, they just screwed up by not having any carrots anywhere in their game. Hell GW1 did that better while also having a nearly non-existant leveling game through the tons of skills you could capture in all kinds of content. Thats another strike against levels (and expansion mudflation ala WoW) in my book.
I think you underestimate how hard it is to sell a long leveling curve to people that expect the leveling time to be an entry fee into the actual game. Leveling *being* the game doesnt occur to those people and they treat it that way. That also makes sure they dont come around and realize they're doing it wrong and start playing instead of racing through.
Just remember the threads about early GW2 and Neverwinter online. Might have been ok for GW2 if you aimed for WvW dominance but PVE-wise you miss out. And especially the latter was ridiculous with many people boring themselves through levels in the foundry instead of just playing. I've said that before but i think you need to sledge hammer that attitude away by simply not having levels. EQN aims to replaced old expectations with something new, I hope level-based advancement goes to the way of the dodo.
Edit: GW2s downscaling is a great feature to keep content interesting for later, they just screwed up by not having any carrots anywhere in their game. Hell GW1 did that better while also having a nearly non-existant leveling game through the tons of skills you could capture in all kinds of content. Thats another strike against levels (and expansion mudflation ala WoW) in my book.
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Because the"END GAME"
He has been conditioned now that it all starts there, not before.
Randin
Trakanon Raider
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I still think the idea of a trinity-less mmo has merit, it's just that GW2's solution to it was flawed. GW2's take on it was to make it so all classes performed all roles of the trinity, typically all at the same time. This made it so that coordination was less necessary in groups, and everyone would just sorta do their own thing; it also made the classes less distinct from one another, and so they all felt more generic.
If I were to make a trinity-less mmo, I would try to do the exact opposite of GW2; where GW2 went with less specialized classes, I would try to make them even more specialized. Each class has its own very specific playstyle, which doesn't easily fall into one of the trinity roles, and which no other class can really mimic. Like GW2, any combination of classes can make a viable group, but an effective group depends on the players figuring out how to mesh together the playstyles of the component classes, and knowing how the group dynamic is changed by the presence or absence of a particular class.
No idea how the specific class mechanics would work out for a game like that, but I think the general idea has merit.