EQ Never

Dumar_sl

shitlord
3,712
4
I think it's safe to say that EQN is the last bet for many of us who are wanting a real MMO experience. If this game is just another WoWified casualfest cash shop with EQ names slapped all over it then I think I'm done with this genre for good, or at least for many years to come.

For those of us who've been here since the beginning, it's such a fucking shame. I look back over a decade ago at the thoughts I had about where this industry could go, the potential it had, and I remember how exciting it would be to see what types of gameplay a true successor to UO or EQ could bring. But it never came, in over 10 years. We got a glorified single-player game with WoW that turned the entire industry into a casual fuckfest.

I remember Furor's rants about Rathe Council not being done. Well, what Blizzard has done to this industry is much fucking worse than any fucking incomplete content from SOE or Verant.

So fucking depressing where we are.
 

tad10

Elisha Dushku
5,534
601
I think it's safe to say that EQN is the last bet for many of us who are wanting a real MMO experience. ...I remember Furor's rants about Rathe Council not being done. Well, what Blizzard has done to this industry is much fucking worse than any fucking incomplete content from SOE or Verant.
Unless some indie surprises, pretty much. Also Alex was an asshole and one of the reasons the fohguild boards went to shit - after about 2008 he would just permaban anyone who bitched too much about WoW/Blizzard.

EQN can't possibly be EQ1 Reborn (or UO reborn) there will be lots too dislike about it, I'm sure - the first question is does the stuff too like outweigh the stuff too dislike? If so, I'll play it. The second question is, if the good stuff outweighs the bad stuff, how long will it take for SOE to muck up the good stuff? Because once that happens I'm out.

Vanilla WoW wasn't my ideal game and neither was Vanguard but in both cases the stuff too like outweighed the stuff too dislike - that changed quickly in WoW and eventually in VG as well. Same thing with EQ, EQ had a good long run but I don't recognize the modern game at all.

I'd be happy with just a couple of good years before it all goes to hell ;-) That's enough for another ten years of forum discussion...
 

Pyros

<Silver Donator>
11,317
2,421
I wouldn't mind Vanguard 2, as long as it has a good engine, which EQN will have I assume since they're probably gonna be using PS2 and that's pretty nice.
 

Vaclav

Bronze Baronet of the Realm
12,650
877
Unless some indie surprises, pretty much. Also Alex was an asshole and one of the reasons the fohguild boards went to shit - after about 2008 he would just permaban anyone who bitched too much about WoW/Blizzard.

EQN can't possibly be EQ1 Reborn (or UO reborn) there will be lots too dislike about it, I'm sure - the first question is does the stuff too like outweigh the stuff too dislike? If so, I'll play it. The second question is, if the good stuff outweighs the bad stuff, how long will it take for SOE to muck up the good stuff? Because once that happens I'm out.

Vanilla WoW wasn't my ideal game and neither was Vanguard but in both cases the stuff too like outweighed the stuff too dislike - that changed quickly in WoW and eventually in VG as well. Same thing with EQ, EQ had a good long run but I don't recognize the modern game at all.

I'd be happy with just a couple of good years before it all goes to hell ;-) That's enough for another ten years of forum discussion...
Or was too spammy with being pro-VG ^_^

Well not really pro-VG, but optimistic for VG and being fed bad info from a friend.
 

Caeden

Golden Baronet of the Realm
7,774
13,058
Do you guys who don't like the flexibility believe there should be a hybrid tax?
You knew the answer already!

I think with a spec-less class system where a hybrid is truly given a niche to excel in, you could have penalties. You and I both know how it would probably go. For group content, some excel-wielding or vba-wielding jackass would sim out that hybrids were x% worse in each area and build raid forces to minimize them. So if Paladins are a weaker tank and weaker healer but give Buff of the Holy Fucker of Awesome, only as many as needed to buff the raid will be brought. If instanced that fucker will be parked outside. Shit was happening back in vanilla and tbc wow.

I like fun racials, but making races matter reduces choice. It's human nature to go for the optimum in these games. I do my best to buck it in WoW since I try to only play Undead and BE but people even more efficiency minded than me bugged the shit out of me about going to goblin and later Pandaren because Blizz made the racials definitively better.
 

Flipmode

EQOA Refugee
2,097
321
You need to do your maths better.
Your hardcore player is playing an average of 15 hours a day for 2-3 months according to you. That's 900 to 1350 hours of play time.
Your casual player is playing an average of 5 hours a day for 4-6 months according to you. That's 600 to 900 hours of play time.

So let's go with 900 hours. It's impossible to create a fun game for anyone outside those who enjoy just grinding all day long. If you stick 50 levels into it that's an average of 18 hours per level. Do you have enough character progression to keep people interested? I mean, for that average joe, you have him playing 4 to 6 hours a day 7 days a week. (Hint: That's not casual at all).

In order to create enough interesting content to keep people engaged and having fun, you would need to create nearly 50+ single player games worth of content. Else you're just telling people to repeat the same content at whatever level range 100 times before they can move on to something different.

Some people like Lineage II, it's not me though.
I admit I didn't really go so deep as to do the math. That may well be too steep. I just know I am dead tired of maxing out my progression in 1-2 months playing 4 days a week. My leveling curve isn't set in stone. There should be ways to get shit done faster.

In EQOA it was fun to power level alts and friends but only after you first climbed the mountain. Shit is just too fast. That's all I'm saying. It needs to be slowed way down. Maybe not EQ1 slow. But definitely slower than any version of wow. The journey should be fun and mask some of the grind anyways. It's not fun outleveling the dungeons before you can even finish a quest arc.
 

Itzena_sl

shitlord
4,609
6
I think it's safe to say that EQN is the last bet for many of us who are wanting a real MMO experience. If this game is just another WoWified casualfest cash shop with EQ names slapped all over it then I think I'm done with this genre for good, or at least for many years to come.
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Mr Creed

Too old for this shit
2,395
289
Yea I just described how EVE does it for Tad. Everyone having access to all skills makes sense in their world.

For the fantasy version I'd want there should be 'soft' classes that have specific skills to learn that the other classes dont get, based on character creation choices. GW1 kinda did that with their dual classing. Each class had 4 attributes that their skills were based on, one of those was the 'main' attribute. When you picked your second class to complete the character, you didnt get the main attribute but only the three others.

Same with races although I would put most of the emphasis of race choice into the faction system (as EQ did).

Another difference to EVE would be how you gain and improve your skills. Instead of buying all skills like in EVE, you add them to your repertoire through different ways. Learning he basics at a school or academy in town, discover them in old tomes in the dungeon, granted by your deity, taught by the old grandmaster after you complete his task, etc. Getting your skills so you can train them up is a big part of the gameplay.

Meanwhile you store up the xp you get for playing, and can assign it to the skills you have acquired to improve them in the same way EVE does, just without the time restriction. That means people that play more can catch up to casual old timers, but still only gain more choices instead of direct power. The game should probably work on a limited available action set like EQ or GW2 (limited abilities, on the fly switching difficult but possible depending on circumstances) or GW1/EVE (you go in with ready skills and thats it until you return to a station or outpost).



Re: Hybrid tax:
If you allow entirely free use of all skills, you need some checks to balance that. EVE allows you to learn them all but depending on ship choice you cant bring them all to bear. IF for example your game allows a character that has learned skills from the mage and warrior and priest archetypes to use them all at the same time, you might have a problem.

You can still solve that by specialization though. Again, an EVE example: skill has 5 levels each giving 5% to small autocannon range. Level 1 takes 1 days of xp to fill up, lvl2 3 days, lvl3 9, lvl4 27 days, lvl5 108 days, lvl6 ... you get the idea (dont argue the numbers, just illustrating). Now in EVE lvl5 in a skill is the end and everyone can max it because the restriction to not using all skills comes from the limited equipment choices on your ship. There are also several skills that improve said small autocannon (range, target tracking, fire rate, etc etc). Given that the last level of each of those skills tages ages compared to the first 4, you are actually fine for combat with lvl4 in all but the most important skills, too. However it does give you a very longterm goal to get those last few percent for omptimal performance on your most-used ships.

Back to your classless Human in a fantasy setting. Since you dont have the restrictions of ship layout to stop him from throwing fireballs while healing and swinging a polearm, you can encourage people to specialize by having enough different skills that affect polearm combat that also getting excellent healing and fireballing is spreading the chacters proficiency in each of them too thin. People are encouraged to focus on their main activities to advance the character in an efficient way, but (like in EVE) they are allowed to fuck it up by being paint sniffers and learning 1,000 skills to level 2. Thats ok because you cannot 'ruin' the character. At best, you enhance your character in a way that you enjoy and that sets you apart from all the other warriors by having another trick in some situations, at the cost of being that 1% less dps in general. At worst, you invested xp(time) in something that doesnt work out, then you have some skills you barely if ever use. You can actually expect most people to do that because trying out the skills doesnt cost much, only maxing them. And the game being about sidegrades shouldnt punish that harshly.

The only issue I see is if the game runs very long and people actually have the time to max polearms (3 years), medium armor (3 years) and cooking (7 years) and then decide to go back to those old druid skills they tried out and forgot about to max those (5 years). So 18 years later you have that OP polearm druid that throws delicious cake at you. The easy solution would be not going classless but with soft classes ala GW1 (see above), but I'm sure if a dev wanted classless they could figure out a way to stop that druid from becoming a problem before the 18 years are up.
 

Caeden

Golden Baronet of the Realm
7,774
13,058
You're the goddamn Stannis of your "position." That's not necessarily a compliment.
 

Big_w_powah

Trakanon Raider
1,887
750
Yea I just described how EVE does it for Tad. Everyone having access to all skills makes sense in their world.

For the fantasy version I'd want there should be 'soft' classes that have specific skills to learn that the other classes dont get, based on character creation choices. GW1 kinda did that with their dual classing. Each class had 4 attributes that their skills were based on, one of those was the 'main' attribute. When you picked your second class to complete the character, you didnt get the main attribute but only the three others.

Same with races although I would put most of the emphasis of race choice into the faction system (as EQ did).

Another difference to EVE would be how you gain and improve your skills. Instead of buying all skills like in EVE, you add them to your repertoire through different ways. Learning he basics at a school or academy in town, discover them in old tomes in the dungeon, granted by your deity, taught by the old grandmaster after you complete his task, etc. Getting your skills so you can train them up is a big part of the gameplay.

Meanwhile you store up the xp you get for playing, and can assign it to the skills you have acquired to improve them in the same way EVE does, just without the time restriction. That means people that play more can catch up to casual old timers, but still only gain more choices instead of direct power. The game should probably work on a limited available action set like EQ or GW2 (limited abilities, on the fly switching difficult but possible depending on circumstances) or GW1/EVE (you go in with ready skills and thats it until you return to a station or outpost).



Re: Hybrid tax:
If you allow entirely free use of all skills, you need some checks to balance that. EVE allows you to learn them all but depending on ship choice you cant bring them all to bear. IF for example your game allows a character that has learned skills from the mage and warrior and priest archetypes to use them all at the same time, you might have a problem.

You can still solve that by specialization though. Again, an EVE example: skill has 5 levels each giving 5% to small autocannon range. Level 1 takes 1 days of xp to fill up, lvl2 3 days, lvl3 9, lvl4 27 days, lvl5 108 days, lvl6 ... you get the idea (dont argue the numbers, just illustrating). Now in EVE lvl5 in a skill is the end and everyone can max it because the restriction to not using all skills comes from the limited equipment choices on your ship. There are also several skills that improve said small autocannon (range, target tracking, fire rate, etc etc). Given that the last level of each of those skills tages ages compared to the first 4, you are actually fine for combat with lvl4 in all but the most important skills, too. However it does give you a very longterm goal to get those last few percent for omptimal performance on your most-used ships.

Back to your classless Human in a fantasy setting. Since you dont have the restrictions of ship layout to stop him from throwing fireballs while healing and swinging a polearm, you can encourage people to specialize by having enough different skills that affect polearm combat that also getting excellent healing and fireballing is spreading the chacters proficiency in each of them too thin. People are encouraged to focus on their main activities to advance the character in an efficient way, but (like in EVE) they are allowed to fuck it up by being paint sniffers and learning 1,000 skills to level 2. Thats ok because you cannot 'ruin' the character. At best, you enhance your character in a way that you enjoy and that sets you apart from all the other warriors by having another trick in some situations, at the cost of being that 1% less dps in general. At worst, you invested xp(time) in something that doesnt work out, then you have some skills you barely if ever use. You can actually expect most people to do that because trying out the skills doesnt cost much, only maxing them. And the game being about sidegrades shouldnt punish that harshly.

The only issue I see is if the game runs very long and people actually have the time to max polearms (3 years), medium armor (3 years) and cooking (7 years) and then decide to go back to those old druid skills they tried out and forgot about to max those (5 years). So 18 years later you have that OP polearm druid that throws delicious cake at you. The easy solution would be not going classless but with soft classes ala GW1 (see above), but I'm sure if a dev wanted classless they could figure out a way to stop that druid from becoming a problem before the 18 years are up.
In your system, I'm assuming skill points would be spent on various skills......Why not simply cap max number of skill points, like you would levels?
 

tad10

Elisha Dushku
5,534
601
According to the last few pages, TSW was the best MMO ever made.
Another Kreugen Thread Bomb "KTB" (tm).

rrr_img_33503.png



The thing is an MMO is more than the sum of its parts - so even if Creedy is describing TSW maybe the TSW system will work better in a game with Storybricks instead of Quests and +1 Vorpal Swords instead of guns.

We can talk about EQEVECraftBricks but until we see it in action who knows if it'll be great or suck balls.