EQ Never

Ukerric_sl said:

And there's a relatively good reason for that.

Good AI is not fun to play against.

Imagine that you're in a PvP match against someone who's mildly retarded (IQ wise) but has millisecond reflexes, knows exactly the amount of damage to the decimal of the spell you're currently casting, can run and instantly stop at a range of 39 yard, 2 feet and, 11.6 inches from you to cast a trinketed dot. And he has an encyclopedic knowledge of every single ability of you, and full charts on the damage of each class. He can figure out if the healer is capable to sustaining the damage output he's going to apply to the highest DPS of the group, completely ignoring the tank whose damage output is negligible because he doesn't get Vengeance stacks, and can reposition so that said tank can't bash and stun him until he's finished casting.

And he doesn't tire of the match, and never make an inattention error.

Think it would be fun if all your opponents were that kind?

Click to expand...

You just described what all the p99 red retards think they are... good show

to touch on a couple of points:

1. most 50s in eq didn't have full planar gear by kunark's release because MOST PEOPLE IN EQ DIDN'T EVEN RAID

2. where do people get the idea that the mmo market is largely comprised of people who don't have a lot of time? there are millions of people on earth who sit on their asses playing video games for 12 hours a day.

supertouch_sl said:

where do people get the idea that the mmo market is largely comprised of people who don't have a lot of time? there are millions of people on earth who sit on their asses playing video games for 12 hours a day.

Click to expand...

"Video games" is a pretty broad generalization. If you tailor your MMO's design to appeal to fans of things like FPS's, RTS's, and Madden Football, do you still have a game that can appeal to fans of MMO's? That's the problem.

Yeah yeah we get it already. Y'all just want to be able to have 20 hours camps again followed by raids until 5am so you can show up shit faced at work.

This kind of shit can work when you're an unemployed bum or in college/high school, and when you have about zero social life. Nowadays though? Forget it. I have better shit to do than to be dicking around in an MMO.

EQNext may well be about the journey again, but don't expect the kind of shit you want.

Seriously, can we get off the wishful thinking train and have a real speculation thread about the game for once? Don't you guys want to start your own "EQ rose-colored glasses thread" or something to talk about this kind of things?

You all have been bitching about the good old days for years, we get it already. I mean, the subject has come full circle almost two dozens time in the last few years. Can't you give it a rest? You'll almost 100% never have what you seek, and you'll keep bitching about it, so couldn't you do it in an "EQ was awesome, modern MMO suck!" thread somewhere instead of any thread about any future game?

Yes, I said it, it's tiring to swim through all your nostalgia bullshit when I just want to catch tidbits about the actual game.

Convo_sl said:

Too bad there is nothing to talk about? You act like your opinion hasnt been stated a million times over again. We get it.. You want to log in, gain 6 levels, get loot for minimal effort all in 1 hour and log off.. Fuck off dude. I don't have the time either but I'd much rather make time for a good game as opposed to continue to suffer through the garbage that has been coming out the last few years.

Click to expand...

And noope, not my point. I'd gladly put effort into a game, not just one where the only actual challenge is to be a fatass able to sit awake at his damn computer for 20 hours straight.

God damn, I loved EQ, played for years, wasn't even ever at level cap, enjoyed it for a lot of things, but NEVER for what some of you guys are advocating.

The whole post earlier about EQ teaching you the value of time? Made me want to puke. Yes, my time is valuable, I didn't need EQ to teach me that, and there is no way in hell I'd waste it camping hours for a damn spawn while half watching TV like I did so many years ago.

Guess I'm just a realist about what we will have and will not have in the future (or you guys may call it a pessimist), but at least I'm not rambling on and on for years about the same things over and over again. I've learned something ,and that's called moving on.

It used to be that the game designer was in the driver's seat while we the gamers were over in the passenger's side scrolling through the radio stations and enjoying the ride. Meanwhile the financial considerations were strapped in behind us shaking it's baby rattle and drooling all over the place. Today, the financials are all grown up and are at the wheel while the designer is playing navigator, calling out directions to the bank off of the road map. Us gamers are way back in the tow-along camper where there's more room for everyone, wishing we were still up in the car with the adults. I really miss being up there to. It's probably going to take someone creating a new kind of car (a fundamentally new kind of game with undefined limitations) for us to get back in the passenger seat again. I'm not looking to the MMO car lot for that.

Flipmode_sl said:

Like others have stated, I still have yet to see a PVP game that doesn't devolve into ganking and griefing. That's what those games attract it seems.

Click to expand...

The problem there, I think, is that the games rarely have consequences for being the aggressor. That's fine when the game is just about letting players kill each other, but when the pvp is there to create a more complete world, there needs to be the ability to kill other players, but compelling reasons not to do so indiscriminately.

Royal_sl said:

It's probably going to take someone creating a new kind of car (a fundamentally new kind of game with undefined limitations) for us to get back in the passenger seat again. I'm not looking to the MMO car lot for that.

Click to expand...

This is an opinion I've shared for more than a few years now and short of some fabulously wealthy MMO player stumping up the funds to develop a niche MMO and run it presumably at a loss - if a respectable expansion cycle/level of dev support is to be expected - then the majority of us are going to be repeating the same old optimistic, albeit delusional, rhetoric in another ten years time.

FoH forums is primarily a demographic which enjoys our Skinner Box Lever to shock us more often than it releases cheese. This, makes the cheese taste that much better. Unfortunately, our 15 bucks are the same as the group which likes the Skinner Box Lever to distribute cheese, and only cheese. The opposing group is much larger than us.

Flipmode_sl said:

Like others have stated, I still have yet to see a PVP game that doesn't devolve into ganking and griefing. That's what those games attract it seems. Plus, they ALWAYS cause PVE to get nerfed for balances sake. You can't have unique classes it seems. EQ classes like SK just become way OP and classes like bards that are needed in PVE are rarely played in PVP because their skills don't translate we'll into the PVP game. Basically the class with the best combo of damage, heals, and armor is the best. It never changes.

Having 2 sets of skills in the game hasn't been done well either. Skills still get nerfed for PVP. If you're gonna do a PVP game, all damage needs to revolve around PVP type numbers like DAOC. 1 pt damage to a player = 1 pt of damage to a mob. But then you won't have classes that are unique. No buff classes, CC classes, etc.

Click to expand...

Although your first point is correct, FFA PvP servers are all about ganking and griefing, your second point is incorrect. Not all games change their PvE to balance PvP. Asheron's Call didn't and we PvPers didn't care.

Also who the fuck says you can't have unique classes? That's one of the best parts about playing on an FFA PvP server in a skill based game, finding that unique skill set that nobody else has that's very good.

Try actually playing some FFA PvP MMO's before you spout shit again thanks.

Blackyce_sl said:

Although your first point is correct, FFA PvP servers are all about ganking and griefing, your second point is incorrect. Not all games change their PvE to balance PvP. Asheron's Call didn't and we PvPers didn't care.

Also who the fuck says you can't have unique classes? That's one of the best parts about playing on an FFA PvP server in a skill based game, finding that unique skill set that nobody else has that's very good.

Try actually playing some FFA PvP MMO's before you spout shit again thanks.

Click to expand...

I don't like to keep bringing this game up, because on the whole it had a LOT of bad things, but L2 was a pvp game with little ganking and griefing. You just need some sort of PVP flagging system that makes ganking cost the ganker more than it costs the gankee. Think of Eve in High-Sec space where you can attack anyone you want to but you will be punished for it.

On an unrelated note: what's the point of player factions again? People keep mentioning them here, but what do they actually add to the game?

Ukerric_sl said:

And there's a relatively good reason for that.

Good AI is not fun to play against.

Imagine that you're in a PvP match against someone who's mildly retarded (IQ wise) but has millisecond reflexes, knows exactly the amount of damage to the decimal of the spell you're currently casting, can run and instantly stop at a range of 39 yard, 2 feet and, 11.6 inches from you to cast a trinketed dot. And he has an encyclopedic knowledge of every single ability of you, and full charts on the damage of each class. He can figure out if the healer is capable to sustaining the damage output he's going to apply to the highest DPS of the group, completely ignoring the tank whose damage output is negligible because he doesn't get Vengeance stacks, and can reposition so that said tank can't bash and stun him until he's finished casting.

And he doesn't tire of the match, and never make an inattention error.

Think it would be fun if all your opponents were that kind?

Click to expand...

I think you're taking the AI notion to the extreme, on the genius cheating level AI. I don't think any dev in their right mind would implement that kind of overpowered AI. Theres a large range of improvement to be made to AI from current caster mobs standing in your face and like a tard trying to cast nukes, and a mob with 2 skill bars of interrupts, snares, trinkets ect acting like a seasoned player. Those are polar opposites of AI and there surely is room in between to be made.

I mean, I remember in EQ getting rooted by a goblin wizard on my 12 dwarf warrior, and it ran a few steps away to nuke me. There's tons of hypothetical examples of more engaging AI I could come up with. In the lastest MMOs Ive played, mobs are so plain and direct that practically none of them require more than the typical 1, 2, 3, 4 rotations. I never have to use any of the situational moves like you would in pvp, half of the skills players have go unused.

In my opinion, I think a game a MMO would be more engaging if the mobs were more challenging then the current crop of AI.

a lot of the things that were implemented to save players time only made their games boring.
in everquest, when you were lv 55 in old sebilis. you would log in, find your friends who were also about your level trying to "ding" and buy their new spells/armor/abilities. you would spend several hours at your camp pulling/killings mobs. sometimes when somebody was close to dinging the puller would get the great idea of aggroing an entire room instead of just flopping out one or 2. these were the best times of the game and the times that you actually fucking learned how to be a good player. sometimes you died and sometimes your buddies stepped up to the fucking plate and parked those adds and blasted the shit out of everything. when the smoke settled you were standing around a sea of froglok corpses and maybe the corpses of some of your buddies. but then you also realized. HOLY SHIT, i just leveled!!!!!!. you tell the group and you would actually receive honest praise for being so lucky. maybe another guy says, "im half a bub from 57, can we pull a few more like that?" and because its late you wanna get done so you could head back to town (or maybe EC tunnel to sell). so when everyone is buffed and ready, you keep power pulling til your bud dinged too. when you all leave. you are exhausted mentally from those gigantic trains that dude was pulling. how the fuck did we survive that ilis storm and those undeads all at the same time. maybe one of your party was an enc who had mad charm skills and his froglok pet with twin daggers was raping half the dungeon. even though you are tired you are fucking elated at how badass you and your friends were and you never want that to end.


all that happened to me as well as very bad things. like being dead with corpses in crypt , pre soulbound keys and the only rogue on the server with a key to OS logged out 3 hours ago after they opened the door for your group. another time i was grouped with people who hated my guts, but they needed a shaman. not knowing these guys didnt like me i agreed to group and an hour in they thought it was funny to have one of their friends pull a train right behind me while they zoned out. i guess they thought id die running and theyd get a good laugh. nope. i went into solo mode and soloed the train. well i didnt kill the train but i parked all that shit and was very slowly working my way through it. when the group returned thinking theyd see my corpse they found me still fighting and i actually got tells apologizing for the prank they pulled and we became friends. some became future guildies.
that was everquest

in Rift, solo solo solo nobody wants to group and if they do its the lamest goddamned experience ever . these people would overpull and just let themselves die. if we didnt die we would just pull more people wouldnt say ding because you can hear them level. and you level so fast that it no longer becomes something worth mentioning. id level 5 or 6 times a day. in EQ i could spend a week trying to grind out 2 levels in OS and learn the entire zone and all its secrets and rare l00tz.

even a casual player cant dispute that playing in a good group with good players at a good spot learning how to be the best char you can be is far more valuable than playing in a group only because your quest says you need a group to complete a quest.

Yeah, we're not asking for a cyber-sentient being to govern mob AI. Just anything other than mobs that stand around stupidly until engaged then blindly following a shortest path route to try and melee.