EQ Never

tad10 · Jul 14, 2013

Quaid_sl said:
No it's not an auto attack, but in spirit it's pretty damned close. A barely noticeable action that allows you to do baseline dps while giving you full control over your skills with minimal timing required... Sounds about right to me.

There's a big difference with me having to hold something down and me just clicking a key once. If you can't see the difference not much I can say as it's not really an arguable point. You can insist the sky is green as much as you want, but it's still blue.

Quaid · Jul 14, 2013

Dude you've gotta explain to me how holding down Lmouse in combat negatively impacts your gameplay in the slightest. I'm genuinely curious here.

Convo · Jul 14, 2013

It's not that it impacts it.. it's more like what's the point? just make it a real auto attack

tad10 · Jul 14, 2013

Quaid_sl said:
Dude you've gotta explain to me how holding down Lmouse in combat negatively impacts your gameplay in the slightest. I'm genuinely curious here.

No, I don't. You're arguing that continuously holding down a key is equivalent to pressing a key once. If you can't understand the difference between the two you're certainly not going to understand why it negatively impacts my gameplay.

I will however give you one hint and then stop this insanely stupid discussion - I could be doing something else with my hands instead such as typing in a chat window.

Sylas · Jul 14, 2013

Meh. Ground targeted spells (like Neverwinter) makes shit too easy imo. Just let mobs do an animation prior to an ability. I don't need some noob shit on the ground to let me know its going to happen, let me figure it out through trial and error.

Neverwinter has both of these, the "avoid red" AOEs from mobs which is mostly just an afk check for ranged classes and slow wind up animations for the melee. The slow wind up attacks are far more dangerous, they basically 1-shot you so you must pay attention to what you are fighting and dodge them.

That's a pretty stupid statement. For most intent and purposes, NWO and GW2 combat were the same in terms of abilities, only that in NWO you had to mash your autoattack key, or at least keep the mouse button for it pressed, while it was autocast in GW2, and that there were a whooping THREE more abilities in GW2 than in NWO(3 encounters, 1 secondary at will, 2 daillies instead of 4weapon skills excluding autoattack, 1heal, 1 ulti, 3utility). If you can't find 3 keys to bind that are close to wasd or esdf that's pretty sad.

Neither was only reactive abilities, both of them had abilities you spammed on cooldown when in combat and very few situational skills, most of which had to be edged out due to lack of barspace anyway. NWO especially, a lot of the situational encounters were simply not used when you could use a damage one instead, unless you were fighting a specific encounter(boss and such) where you knew it'd be useful. If anything GW2 has the better use for situational abilities since you could carry a 2nd weapon set which could be used entirely for situational purposes where you'd swap to it, cast whatever you wanted, then swap back.

Main difference between the 2 combat is the targetting system, since NWO was FPS style targetting while GW2 was traditional mmo targetting.

While i'm ignorant of GW2 having never played it and only responding to someone's description of the game, you are also clearly ignorant of NW. The only time you ever used +more damage abilities in Neverwinter was leveling up a lowbie character. Also please enlighten me, GW2 has a button you hit to switch weapons? so does that switch out your hotbar for another hotbar of that weapon's specific abilities? again never played, how does switching out weapon sets for different utilities work? is it like TSW where you have your total active abilities between 2 weapon sets (7 active abilities total in tsw), or are you saying you switch main weapons and have like 20 total abilities?

In neverwinter you basically have 5 abilities, your 3 situational encounters, your class power (tab), and your daily (1 key). 6 if you want to count your main attack of holding down left mouse. You have a secondary option for your daily (2 key) and attack (right mouse button) but they are used in lieu of your main attack/main daily respectively.

Having to hold down the left mouse button is not an auto-attack.

no not really, but it's effectively the same as it makes up about 90% of your damage. it certainly isn't "auto" though you are right.
edit: missed the minitroll war about autoattack.
The reason you can't just have it on auto is you have to stop attacking often in response to the environment and what's going on around you. If it was a toggle on/off you'd end up doing a lot of clicking which would be more annoying than just hold...release, hold...release, etc. basically you'd have twice as many clicks.
also typing in chat? missed the part about movement and positioning being so vital the game was designed around your hand never leaving wasd? there's no typing in combat.

Quaid · Jul 14, 2013

tad10_sl said:
No, I don't. You're arguing that continuously holding down a key is equivalent to pressing a key once. If you can't understand the difference between the two you're certainly not going to understand why it negatively impacts my gameplay.

I will however give you one hint and then stop this insanely stupid discussion - I could be doing something else with my hands instead such as typing in a chat window.

Ah there it is - you wanna type during combat. Didn't even think about that. Makes sense.

Thanks for the answer, even if it was dripping with venom for little to no reason.

Pyros · Jul 14, 2013

Sylas_sl said:
While i'm ignorant of GW2 having never played it and only responding to someone's description of the game, you are also clearly ignorant of NW. The only time you ever used +more damage abilities in Neverwinter was leveling up a lowbie character. Also please enlighten me, GW2 has a button you hit to switch weapons? so does that switch out your hotbar for another hotbar of that weapon's specific abilities? again never played, how does switching out weapon sets for different utilities work? is it like TSW where you have your total active abilities between 2 weapon sets (7 active abilities total in tsw), or are you saying you switch main weapons and have like 20 total abilities?

In neverwinter you basically have 5 abilities, your 3 situational encounters, your class power (tab), and your daily (1 key). 6 if you want to count your main attack of holding down left mouse. You have a secondary option for your daily (2 key) and attack (right mouse button) but they are used in lieu of your main attack/main daily respectively.

What you slot as encounters is class specific. Might have changed but as a Champion, it was 2 DPS abilities then 1 that was kinda what you wanted, like the aoe mark or the charge or whatever. Mostly it was all DPS, your 2 at wills were DPS and the one good daily was DPS. DPS class=all DPS abilities. Now you had control wizard and as the name indicates, you had plenty of control, so your skills were control related. You still pretty much always slotted sudden storm and magic missiles as your at will(2nd at will was irrelevant). That did leave 3+1 slots for utility based stuff like the choke hold, aoe freeze, aoe stun and so on but that wasn't as much by choice and more because there wasn't pure dmg encounters anyway so you made with the ones that did the best CC(and they all did dmg too). Part of it was due to awful NWO balance so that quite often you didn't have a choice, you had one ability that was very good and a bunch that sucked, so if the utility ones sucked well tough luck. Also bosses being immune to disables didn't help too much with slotting utility shit.

GW2 has 5 abilities that are tied to your weapon. You can weaponswap to get 5 different ones. One of them is always an autoattack(which has different properties like speed/range/secondary effect etc) then the rest tends to be general mmo abilities, some weapons were damage oriented, other support oriented. The other 5 abilities are static(can swap out of combat like NWO stuff).

As for secondary daily/at will, everything is used instead of another ability. If you use your encounter, you can't use your main at will. It's not like they don't count. Granted all the classes I played had one majorly superior at will and daily so the other slots were completely fucking worthless.

My first point though was simply that saying "GW2 had poor action combat because your keys go to 0" is pretty dumb, even if you assume the 0 part isn't the actual keybindings but the number of abilities(10). 1 2 3 4 5 Q E R T F G C V X Z, not counting mouse buttons, there's plenty of room to bind shit.

The second was that the even more limited slots in NWO didn't really increase diversity of build but on the contrary reduced it and made some abilities unused simply by virtue of not being as good as some others and since you only get 3 slots, you can't afford to slot stuff that's worse even if it's situationally useful. Mind you, GW2 was very much the same to an extent, especially since the 5 abilities tied to your weapon couldn't be changed, so choosing weapons was fairly limited and weapons often went in pairs(like this weapon works with this other one but another weap doesn't cause it uses different damage types than your spec allows etc).

Overall I'd rather do away with the limited ability system until they can figure out how to balance abilities well enough. Also offering modular bar setups is pointless if you don't offer modular passive/talents/aa/whatever setups. If I spec for a particular combat type, that will inherently limit my choices in terms of hotbar abilities to stuff that synergizes with my passives. Giving me the option to slot shit that is vastly inferior isn't really a choice, it's just fluff.

althuna_sl · Jul 14, 2013

Convo_sl said:
Most left straight from EQ but at the time I don't see how you couldn't enjoy the ride a little bit in WoW. It was engaging. Just lost it's appeal pretty fast

Well I enjoyed some stuff. Some of the classes were a lot more advanced. I started with a warlock and didnt like it but I also tried a druid and loved how you could become a bear, or a wolf and then backstab shit. And then later on I became a moonkin which was nuke based. EQ druid felt old fashioned compared to that.

But really I knew it wasnt my game right from the start. I had some friends who played it and were hassling me to play, and then an old EQ friend who played the beta and knew me best and told me I wouldn't like it. He told me the clever stuff but said that overall I would find it dumb. So I kept telling my friends, No, play it without me, its not for me. But they hassled me constantly and eventually I tried it. Hated it. Liked a few things but overall, just not for me. Couldnt enjoy the ride at all, because I wanted to just go back to EQ, the month I spent tooling around in WoW I could have leveled up another character in EQ which I would have much preferred.

rolx_sl said:
So much drama going on p99 right now. Hackers getting banned ddos server everyday can't even play. GM's being accused of making items for RMT. Its getting wild. Can't even play for last 4 days, check P99 forums you cant even access because the servers are getting attacked. They banned the wrong hacker?

Get on EQ Mac! It goes a bit further, you have to deal with the fact that there is the PoK and some other dumb stuff, but besides that it's the same kind of thing but far more chilled, no drama, no hacking or shenanigans because its a legit server. The only downside for me is that its harder to find a group, but you can box so that helps.

Quaid_sl said:
Because you generally don't do anything w/ Lmouse anyway except click spells (and I doubt you are bad at games). It's not so far of a stretch to just have to hold it down to attack... Barely noticeable.

Nah its a bit of a chore to have to hold it down all the time. Pressing one key is far better. I also loved in Vanguard how left mouse let you just turn your head, so you could look around and see your group without turning away from the mob.

Mr Creed · Jul 14, 2013

It's worth repeating that the GW2 way of giving each weapon different skills to work with is a really good idea. It adds depth to classes and AAs (if your game has them) without being power creep, because obvious only the spider-people get to use more then two weapons at once. It also allows the player to feel unique because his choices shaped what his character can do (ignore the 100 other spider-people also dual wielding glaives). As long as the devs can balance them, you are given choices for different playstyles and add alot of variety to your game. Also removes loot blandness in a raiding +gooder setting because not everyone uses the same sword just because of dps.

althuna_sl · Jul 14, 2013

Devs can't balance shit

Takes too much time and effort. Thats why games with freedom like that just end up being cookie cutter builds. Thats a part of what ruined TSW for me.

althuna_sl · Jul 14, 2013

Give it 10 more years... the budget of these games will be up to 500 million dollars.

We'll get everything we want then.

Sylas · Jul 14, 2013

Um yeah everything you just said about neverwinter is flat out wrong. By "might have changed" do you mean after level 10 when you start getting utility/situational abilities to replace your default dps encounters then yes, it totally changes.

Also what is a champion? I think you are confusing nw with another game. Every class has a variety of situationally useful abilities and they get switched out depending on content you are doing. Dailies basically every class has one they use always and one thats situational. But for encounters there are 5-6 useful encounters that you mix and match for the content and virtually none of them are for dps.

Pyros · Jul 14, 2013

Yeah that's why I don't think you should balance it with rigid setups and instead go with a normal setup where you have access to all abilities at once, but put more emphasis on using the right skill for the right situation by tweaking cooldown, costs and requirements. Instead of spells costing 5% mana and having 10secs cooldowns, you want longer cooldowns and bigger mana costs so you don't spam all your buttons as they light up but have to pick the ones you want to use. I'll differ on the "autoattack+tactical skills only" though in that I'd rather have a few abilities I can use often for different situations(single target, aoe, defensive, offensive, whatever) and then everything else on long cooldowns and/or high mana cost that have to be used inteligently as the situation requires. Say like 3 abilities per class you can "spam"(still 5-15secs cd on them) and then a large amount of situational and powerful abilities, not just the usual cooldowns that boost your dmg/attackspeed for 15secs or whatever but like aoe sleep, evacuate, aoe knockback, mana leech, interupt etc.

Edit: Yeah it's not champion it's great weapon fighter, not sure why I said champion. 2 of the best utilities are pure DPS, one of them you get at lvl 40 or 45 even. Your at will is pure DPS, your daily is pure DPS, your class ability increases your DPS. None of the utility stuff is worth slotting over the DPS options. Regardless DPS or not though, point is there was very little choice in NWO utility slotting, most were obvious due to balance issues or simply being too situational.

List from the wiki:
Not so fast, never used unless build specific or pvp. Doesn't do enough dmg to be used over something else. Restoring strike, never used other than leveling, self healing isn't strong enough to matter, plus you shouldn't be healing yourself, damage is ok but single target. Mighty Leap, possible 3rd slot utility, low priority. Takedown, pvp only. Roar, often used as 3rd utility, for the determination to do more damage. Daring shout, other top option for 3rd utility due to determination gains and mark dmg increase. Come and get it, situationally useful for specific encounters but generally CW will do it. Punishing charge, very low priority option for 3rd utility slot, movement can be useful. Battle fury, terrible effect. Indomitable battle strike, 1st must have. Flourish, 2nd must have. Out of these half of them are completely worthless, mostly because you need to slot both flourish and IBS. Mind you maybe it has changed, I only played the game for a couple of weeks at most. I have a 50 GWF, CW and a 40ish GF as well as a 30ish cleric, so I did play the game past 10.

shabushabu · Jul 14, 2013

Pyros_sl said:
What you slot as encounters is class specific. Might have changed but as a Champion, it was 2 DPS abilities then 1 that was kinda what you wanted, like the aoe mark or the charge or whatever. Mostly it was all DPS, your 2 at wills were DPS and the one good daily was DPS. DPS class=all DPS abilities. Now you had control wizard and as the name indicates, you had plenty of control, so your skills were control related. You still pretty much always slotted sudden storm and magic missiles as your at will(2nd at will was irrelevant). That did leave 3+1 slots for utility based stuff like the choke hold, aoe freeze, aoe stun and so on but that wasn't as much by choice and more because there wasn't pure dmg encounters anyway so you made with the ones that did the best CC(and they all did dmg too). Part of it was due to awful NWO balance so that quite oftesn you didn't have a choice, you had one ability that was very good and a bunch that sucked, so if the utility ones sucked well tough luck. Also bosses being immune to disables didn't help too much with slotting utility shit.

GW2 has 5 abilities that are tied to your weapon. You can weaponswap to get 5 different ones. One of them is always an autoattack(which has different properties like speed/range/secondary effect etc) then the rest tends to be general mmo abilities, some weapons were damage oriented, other support oriented. The other 5 abilities are static(can swap out of combat like NWO stuff).

As for secondary daily/at will, everything is used instead of another ability. If you use your encounter, you can't use your main at will. It's not like they don't count. Granted all the classes I played had one majorly superior at will and daily so the other slots were completely fucking worthless.

My first point though was simply that saying "GW2 had poor action combat because your keys go to 0" is pretty dumb, even if you assume the 0 part isn't the actual keybindings but the number of abilities(10). 1 2 3 4 5 Q E R T F G C V X Z, not counting mouse buttons, there's plenty of room to bind shit.

The second was that the even more limited slots in NWO didn't really increase diversity of build but on the contrary reduced it and made some abilities unused simply by virtue of not being as good as some others and since you only get 3 slots, you can't afford to slot stuff that's worse even if it's situationally useful. Mind you, GW2 was very much the same to an extent, especially since the 5 abilities tied to your weapon couldn't be changed, so choosing weapons was fairly limited and weapons often went in pairs(like this weapon works with this other one but another weap doesn't cause it uses different damage types than your spec allows etc).

Overall I'd rather do away with the limited ability system until they can figure out how to balance abilities well enough. Also offering modular bar setups is pointless if you don't offer modular passive/talents/aa/whatever setups. If I spec for a particular combat type, that will inherently limit my choices in terms of hotbar abilities to stuff that synergizes with my passives. Giving me the option to slot shit that is vastly inferior isn't really a choice, it's just fluff.

If eqnext has NW or gw2 combat I won't touch it. Most mind numbing shit ever ... A least for a Mage. I shall just keep playing DDO.

Pyros · Jul 14, 2013

shabushabu_sl said:
If eqnext has NW or gw2 combat I won't touch it. Most mind numbing shit ever ... A least for a Mage. I shall just keep playing DDO.

I don't know about mind numbing but yeah overall it didn't work out all that well. It makes for good pvp games though imo, much better than wow type gameplay but for pve it's too spammy and tends to not be deep enough other than targetting requirements which is basically pointing in the general direction of shit. Pretty sure they're not going this way anyway.

shabushabu · Jul 14, 2013

Pyros_sl said:
I don't know about mind numbing but yeah overall it didn't work out all that well. It makes for good pvp games though imo, much better than wow type gameplay but for pve it's too spammy and tends to not be deep enough other than targetting requirements which is basically pointing in the general direction of shit. Pretty sure they're not going this way anyway.

Cool and yes I agree... in neverwinter u didn't even target stuff just hold down one button most of time it was terrible. I mean if folks were looking for depth that is for a spammy flashy experience NW was fun I guess

tad10 · Jul 14, 2013

Quaid_sl said:
Ah there it is - you wanna type during combat. Didn't even think about that. Makes sense.

Thanks for the answer, even if it was dripping with venom for little to no reason.

Frustration not venom. I shouldn't have to explain why a simple auto-attack is best on this forum.

It's not just typing. If for example, I'm facing a mob I can kill on aa. I can click on aa and go grab a root beer from the fridge. It's about quality of life in gaming. As Ukerric noted above, there is a problem with modern gamers and particularly modern MMO gamers who having grown up on consoles need to push a button to feel like they're doing something. What they don't realize is that you can be doing something without having any buttons pushed - your toon can be auto-attacking without further button pushing.

The problem with all this button pushing can't really be seen in a console game because you are usually playing them in bite-sized chunks and can usually stop at any point and go grab that root beer. However in an MMO it's hard to "stop" when you're in the middle of the raid or dungeon but all that fucking button pushing DDR bullshit is tiring since you're not 15 anymore at the end of which you just want to gtfo.

I think it is hilarious when people go on about how they want 30 minute bite sized chunks of MMO time - all the while claiming this is due to busy schedules. It's not the schedule it's just too damn exhausting playing MMOs these days becuse of key rotations, shit-UIs and the rest. Back in the day you could play for a couple of hours at a time because you weren't playing fucking DDR and you could be doing other things at the same time - that's why people logged in and stayed logged in for hours. The EQN killer for me is if there is no auto-attack and if it's button mashing for combat. I'll just restart on EQMac then.

Carl_sl · Jul 14, 2013

You typically have to defend opinions which is what it is when you say "auto attack is best". No not everybody agrees with you and no you are not more knowledgeable than everyone else to be getting mad at defending your ideas.

tad10 · Jul 14, 2013

Carl_sl said:
You typically have to defend opinions which is what it is when you say "auto attack is best". No not everybody agrees with you and no you are not more knowledgeable than everyone else to be getting mad at defending your ideas.

Sure buddy, because the wheel needs be re-invented every fucking time. Amirite?

Byr · Jul 14, 2013

you obviously dont agree but i get no satisfaction on killing a mob auto attacking. if im going to sit there for a minute doing nothing, why am i sitting there at all? Hell, thats a game id make a simple bot for and just check back every 2 hours.

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