Convo
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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I think you should be more specific...
Although the possibility is slim..there is a chance devs still read these forums.
EQ Never
- Thread starter Convo
- Start date
Although the possibility is slim..there is a chance devs still read these forums.
I like the idea of classes having unique abilities. The problem is when those abilities become essential, a la the cleric and enchanter in Everquest.
Despite the many problems I have with the game, to this day the classes in EQ to me are *perfect*. I really hope EQ Next goes in a completely new design direction, but if they kept the same classes, albeit changed up, from EQ I'd be good. I liked DAOCs ones, too. It seems to me every game since EQ has had worse and worse class designs.
I agree with you about balance. The biggest travesty in the MMO world is shortsighted designers have traded balance over fun in their desire to equalize the MMO world. So, instead of difficult classes and varying skills that can be used in a variety of different ways, servers are essentially just huge bands of lemmings.
My character that I've invested two years in should be able to go to the Planes, fight Gods, and rain lightning down on that unfortunate band of orcs that got in my way. I should not be chased by rats through the streets, and my abilities should not be identical to joe schmoe who has three hours played.
For an example of how not to do classes, one just has to look at Rift. For all the good things Rift has going for it, it's class setup is the most vanilla, horrible, over-streamlined and under individualized design possible.
Designers should take note: instead of nerfing that Left Axe or destroying Windfury, howzabout making the game more fun?
No archetypes sucks because you end up left out in the cold if you can't do the key thing everyone else can do. For example Necros often got screwed by groups in EQ because they couldn't evac or backup heal. A Wizard was a better option, a Druid was a far better option, and a Shaman or Enchanter was essential.
Archetypes solve that like Vanguard did, because all 4 classes in each archetype could do the basic required tasks, but then they were distinctive too. For example all healers are good enough to be the main group healer, and groups never preferred one over the other. And yet the Disciple is basically a Monk with Feign Death and heals while kicking ass. The Blood Mage was a spell caster which could charm and do all kinds of funky shit. The Cleric was traditional and a bit simple, not much variety or utility and not very good dps, but their heals were strong and they had nice easy AoE damage. And then the Shaman could heal yet could itself split in to basically 3 different classes based on which patron they chose. The Bear shaman being able to off tank and so could their pet, and their buffs were very good to help with tanking. The Wolf Shaman had better DPS and could stealth like a rogue. The bird Shaman was like a nuking version of it.
I think if you are going to have classes, that's a good way of doing it. Nobody gets the short straw when it comes to finding groups, and yet if they put enough time and effort in to it, you get very distinctive classes too. And unlike Rift, it's better for replayability too because even a healer might want to start a new character that is a different type of healer.
Archetypes solve that like Vanguard did, because all 4 classes in each archetype could do the basic required tasks, but then they were distinctive too. For example all healers are good enough to be the main group healer, and groups never preferred one over the other. And yet the Disciple is basically a Monk with Feign Death and heals while kicking ass. The Blood Mage was a spell caster which could charm and do all kinds of funky shit. The Cleric was traditional and a bit simple, not much variety or utility and not very good dps, but their heals were strong and they had nice easy AoE damage. And then the Shaman could heal yet could itself split in to basically 3 different classes based on which patron they chose. The Bear shaman being able to off tank and so could their pet, and their buffs were very good to help with tanking. The Wolf Shaman had better DPS and could stealth like a rogue. The bird Shaman was like a nuking version of it.
I think if you are going to have classes, that's a good way of doing it. Nobody gets the short straw when it comes to finding groups, and yet if they put enough time and effort in to it, you get very distinctive classes too. And unlike Rift, it's better for replayability too because even a healer might want to start a new character that is a different type of healer.
Flipmode
EQOA Refugee
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Both blood mages and disciples were OP as shit so of course everyone thought they were awesome. Everyone loves to be OP. Doing ridiculous DPS while being the strongest healer should NEVER EVER be thought to be a good class design. EVER! But the classes mechanics were great.
But that's the point, not the fine details. The finer details all kind of sucked, but that's the story of Vanguard's life. For example, the Psi I really hated because it was basically just the EQ Enchanter but dumbed down and easier to play. And most of the classes seemed like they could have switched to at least one other role, but it felt unfinished. For example the DK had the usual tank stance that increased aggro, but they also had a DPS stance that removed that but improved their damage. But they didn't go the whole hog with it because the dps wasn't good enough that any group would ever want a DK Dps. And it also didn't change any of your abilities, it was just like a global buff for one thing or another. A lot of the other classes were the same. I think if they had more time and budget they might have jazzed that up.
Just give me meaningful areas; aka limited travel. I still remember weighing the pros and coins of starting qeynos or Freeport... monk headband or Sarah .. befallen or Bb....
I like the idea of a home area that you spend a lot of time in....
I like the idea of a home area that you spend a lot of time in....
Flipmode
EQOA Refugee
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Idk. We all talk about not wanting homogenous classes, but if all defensive tanks have a defensive stance and an offensive stance, aren't they basically the same.
Also, should a class that has better innate defense ever do as much DPS as a class that has less? I don't think so. But modern MMOs have given tanks just that. So you have classes with high AC, high DPS, and heals. Add PVP to the mix and you just created an "I win" class.
So to answer the question, if I wanted a DPS, I'd pick a straight DPS class. If I needed DPS/OT, I'll take the tank in offensive stance.
bixxby
Molten Core Raider
- 2,750
- 47
Why do we even need classes anymore? Why not just the whole thing available and let you pick what you're doing when you want to do it (ie The Secret World). A grind that lasts forever and let's you always improve your character is perfect for Everquest.
Also it's a shame they basically forgot about EQ2's early dungeon setup in later expansions, finding all kinds of quests randomly while wandering around and looking at random objects was awesome.
Also it's a shame they basically forgot about EQ2's early dungeon setup in later expansions, finding all kinds of quests randomly while wandering around and looking at random objects was awesome.
Quineloe
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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Some people prefer classes and the identification that comes with them over a soulless skill system
jack-of-all trade characters don't make sense in a setting in which a group is fighting common enemies. these encounters always involve tanking and healing and you end up assigning roles anyway.
I like the potential min/max theory crafting of skill systems. Path of Exiles is a good example of an amazing class system for a Diablo type of game. Rift had an interesting system until the butchered it (they expanded talents vertically rather than horizontally). TSW's system is pretty great too.
Grim1
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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If you are going to stick with classes then the original EQ actually did a pretty good job. I even liked the xp penalties for certain races / classes, although the grouping xp penalty for sk's was not a good thing.
Making it harder to level certain classes / races makes them rare. And ill defined roles that force a player to be good or left out also extends that. I don't think it is necessary for every class to be needed in groups. There should be a use for at least one of every class in a raid, even if it is to just loot class only gear. I lived that role as a sk, I had to be good or left out. I found the challenge to be fun and very rewarding.
As long as you explain to people in very clear terms what they are getting into when they create their toons, then having penalties and ill defined roles is fine.
Making it harder to level certain classes / races makes them rare. And ill defined roles that force a player to be good or left out also extends that. I don't think it is necessary for every class to be needed in groups. There should be a use for at least one of every class in a raid, even if it is to just loot class only gear. I lived that role as a sk, I had to be good or left out. I found the challenge to be fun and very rewarding.
As long as you explain to people in very clear terms what they are getting into when they create their toons, then having penalties and ill defined roles is fine.
kaid
Blackwing Lair Raider
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I honestly liked the old eq1 LFG tool. It showed you a list of who all was looking and allowed you to easily create a group and talk to people and get something going. It did not port you across the world so it was not like wow where you just sit in town waiting to get ported. It was just a decent usable interface to know who was available and what they were looking to do so you could easily contact them and group up with them.
Soygen
The Dirty Dozen For the Price of One
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I liked the EQ lfg tool as well, but someone earlier said it never took them more than 2 minutes to find a complete group. I'm not sure what other servers were like, but on Prexus some days took a whole lot longer than a few minutes to get a group going.
I don't have a whole lot to add that hasn't been said 1000 times over, but for solo content I think EQ was on the right path, but maybe just tweak it a little. When I first chose a character in EQ it was because my group of friends that I played with needed a healer. I was very aware that I would not be able to solo very well but I also knew I would not have trouble finding a group as long as I was decent at healing. There were options on the table, like playing a necro or mage if I wanted to play solo. I am definitely all for class definition and do not think they need to be "equal" in every regard. Just my 2c
Also, whatever happened to vendor shopping. There were days I would just go from zone to zone looking for specific items that someone may had sold to a vendor, whether it was for crafting, an alt, etc. In fact, since I am an explorer at heart, that aspect of the game was right up my alley. To this day my friends still give me shit about it.
Also, whatever happened to vendor shopping. There were days I would just go from zone to zone looking for specific items that someone may had sold to a vendor, whether it was for crafting, an alt, etc. In fact, since I am an explorer at heart, that aspect of the game was right up my alley. To this day my friends still give me shit about it.
i said it never took me more than 2 minutes to get a certain class to join my group. having to wait to join a certain camp had nothing to do with an lfg tool or lack thereof.
Quineloe
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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actually exp penalties for stronger classes is not a good idea, because once they're at the level cap...
I think the only reason I liked ogre over the other races as a tank was the ability to not be stunned from the front. At least I think that was the case, it's been so long. The downside to the ogre though is you needed a shrink more often than not, which wasn't always easy to come by when you needed it most. I think ideas like that should be an essential part of any RPG.