EQ Never

Draegan_sl

2 Minutes Hate
10,034
3
grouping in gw2 versus grouping in eq is like going to the grocery store versus shooting the shit with your friends in your apartment. i find it hard to believe that grouping in fucking mmos has become such a bone of contention. just blow up the genre.
You win for Best Analogy of 2013. hahahaha

Grouping has always been a bone of contention. Even in EQ if you didn't have a set group you were either waiting your turn, you were the wrong class, or you were sitting around with your dick in your hand because you didn't have a healer or a tank before you began playing. Modern MMOs have removed that barrier and you can adapt those methods to any type of EQ remake.

Instead of having a hard cap of the number of people in your group, why have a cap at all? Why not have everyone have their own loot table and xp table for the mobs they are killing so everyone get something? Then work on scaling up the environment for the number of people rather than scaling down the rewards because the content becomes trivialized with more people.
 

Draegan_sl

2 Minutes Hate
10,034
3
But the big emphasis here is that, many times, developers ignore viewing things from a social stand point. It's not considered part of game design at all, except for the interface. I doubt (Maybe I'm wrong) that Blizzard sits down and talks about how people will need to "network" in their game, beyond just saying "lets make our friend and social applications better!"--and then we get things like in game calendars and real ID...And while those aren't BAD...That's not the kind of "in world" exploitation of social design they need to think about. An example should be "how do I get someone to actually WANT to go to this dungeon, and not just LFD there?" ..Asking that question doesn't destroy LFD, it just adds to it.

It almost feels like they can't work beyond extremes. Anytime someone mentions actual dungeons, people freak out and say "ZOMG FORCED GROUPS!!" and if you say you don't need to force it, they say "THEN NO ONE WILL GO!"...Ugh, I just want to know where their balls went? What happened to having fun designing this stuff and seeing what people will like, rather than what your sample groups told you will be used.
Right. Devs are not asking the right questions and there are a lot of devs out there that are flat out bad. There are a lot of talented people that are amazing at creating content, creating events and scripts with the proper code and procedures but a lot of them are not capable of the overall creation of game worlds and tying things together. There needs to be another layer there for content and game creation that doesn't come from people whose main focus is coding.

The problem with "seeing what people like" though is wasted development time. But you have to do it if you want to change and to do that you have to ask the right questions. When you get to the point where you are just making formulaic dungeons, sticking them somewhere on a map and putting them in a list in LFD you've already lost. Blizzard talked about getting people back out in the world for MOP, but the LFD system really killed that. The LFD system really works for what WOW wants to do, but Blizzard stopped asking the right questions. They are asking things like "how long should the average dungeon take to finish" and "how many points per hour/week should you be getting" and that sterilizes everything.

The proper question, to continue using the WOW example is, how do we incorporate the LFD system into our game that also allows players to see the world around them while keeping the accessibility and ease of access?

Here's how I would answer that using WOW technology:
Each dungeon is quite large that represents old school open world areas or Vanilla Dungeons like BRD.
Each dungeon is not a 5 man instance, instead it's a 10-20-50 whatever man shard.
Incorporate each dungeon into the open world much like dungeon instances are now.
Join LFD queue, and when it pops you are dropped outside the dungeon in the open world.
Upon teleporting to the area you join a raid group or party or some new grouping configuration of the other people and you "phase" into this new shard using WOW phasing technology.

You now have a LFD system for "open world" dungeons. I don't know if it's possible but you can do inception style phases within phases so you can separate out boss mechanics that require certain balancing if you're afraid boss fights are too difficult to do in an open world (I don't).
 

Louis

Trakanon Raider
2,836
1,105
If he's saying it will be released by the end of the year then wtf. I can't imagine that being enough time to be in development for a fully fleshed out project. Not to mention there hasn't even been ANY type of concrete details, gameplay, much less a screenshot. I hope I'm just not reading that correctly.
 

Draegan_sl

2 Minutes Hate
10,034
3
If it's released this year then he needs to explain how he's scrapped designs twice in 4 years and still has a nearly finished project. It would be interesting to hear how having a built in engine and infrastructure thanks to Planetside2 has helped in their early dev time.
 

Nirgon

YOU HAVE NO POWER HERE
12,833
19,818
People are so tired of grinding extremely forgettable quests solo to level, there's actually a sizable market (I think about 160$ going rate?) for people to play a character to max level for you.

Wouldn't have dreamed of letting some chinese farmer/bot play my EverQuest main for... well infinite reasons.
 

Draegan_sl

2 Minutes Hate
10,034
3
Yes, it's time for the level grind to be masked again. Masking NPC grinding for hours with checklists, of fedex and kill quests that netted you bonus xp and a reward was a great step forward, but then they went overboard and now people are sick of laundry lists of trivial shit to do.

I still like what GW2 did, and specifically to this point, you now get bonus xp from your daily quest tracker.
 

Grim1

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
4,865
6,822
I love how the old school class of EQ lovers are now incorporating Vanilla WOW into their "good ole days" message. It's interesting how the mythos grows to incorporate other things.

To your points though, we're exercising our brains as to how to create different elements of MMORPGS. You're just understating things and just saying "just make it social again" doesn't move the discussion further.
Not every old school EQ player does that. But it is understandable if some do. I only played WoW for a couple of months, but the first thing I remember thinking was how much like EQ WoW was. An exact copy in many ways, except for the ui, art and ease of play. No other mmo ever gave me that feeling, and that is part of the reason I didn't last in WoW that long. I had already played EQ a long time at that point, and was looking for something different. Also, the lack of challenge bored me.
 

Grim1

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
4,865
6,822
You win for Best Analogy of 2013. hahahaha

Grouping has always been a bone of contention. Even in EQ if you didn't have a set group you were either waiting your turn, you were the wrong class, or you were sitting around with your dick in your hand because you didn't have a healer or a tank before you began playing. Modern MMOs have removed that barrier and you can adapt those methods to any type of EQ remake.
You forget the importance of rep on the server for getting groups. Long before joining a guild I had developed a rep on the server as a good tank. So groups were rarely an issue for me, even as a SK. Usually had a few tell invites within a few minutes of logging in. Most SK's had a hell of a time getting groups back then. The group xp penalty for sk's and the general lack of knowledge about what sk's could actually do usually forced many to solo or reroll as a war / pal (pal heals were always welcome).

Server rep is a thing of the past, but it was hugely important at one time. Especially for classes that were left out of the trinity.
 

Dragoon_sl

shitlord
117
0
Yes- Please pussify the game more.

People played EQ and liked EQ because it was hard as shit. On that same note- some people left and hated EQ because of the same reason.

There are many of easy MMO's oput there that will get your group FOR you and loot FOR you. They are gay.

Please let EQN be hard and have end game replay value.
 

Dragoon_sl

shitlord
117
0
You forget the importance of rep on the server for getting groups. Long before joining a guild I had developed a rep on the server as a good tank. So groups were rarely an issue for me, even as a SK. Usually had a few tell invites within a few minutes of logging in. Most SK's had a hell of a time getting groups back then. The group xp penalty for sk's and the general lack of knowledge about what sk's could actually do usually forced many to solo or reroll as a war / pal (pal heals were always welcome).

Server rep is a thing of the past, but it was hugely important at one time. Especially for classes that were left out of the trinity.
Agreed.
 

Khane

Got something right about marriage
19,875
13,393
Yes- Please pussify the game more.

People played EQ and liked EQ because it was hard as shit. On that same note- some people left and hated EQ because of the same reason.

There are many of easy MMO's oput there that will get your group FOR you and loot FOR you. They are gay.

Please let EQN be hard and have end game replay value.
There were things about EQ that were difficult, but not many. Saying it was "hard as shit" makes me think you played a different game than I did.

EQ was actually pretty easy. Unlimited CC, debilitating slows, super buffs, only needing to press about 3 buttons. Yea that shit was hard dog.
 

Saladus

Bronze Knight of the Realm
271
11
I'm a few pages behind, but Lithouse's post on how accessibility has killed immersion is amazing. At the cost of easy accessibility, in WoW we now have a game that really does feel like a bunch of mini-games. You can teleport to your dungeon, raid, battleground, which is great if you're looking to get some quick action in if you have limited time. But like Lithouse's said, there isn't an option for those looking for adventure. And this is a reason I'm realizing just now why I'm not enjoying WoW that much as an MMOPRG... Because it no longer feels like the RPG element is there.

It's frustrating on the MMO element of the game as well because there really is no reason to talk to anyone in your group in heroics. There's just no incentive...it's just "Apply face to keyboard, receive badges." Sometimes when I think abut it, I'm amazed when I think of how easily I'm grouped up with 4 other players to clear a dungeon. And just as easily that amazement is dashed every time when I remember no one is going to want to talk, no one really gives a fuck about what dungeon they are in, fuck this boss, and fuck that environment, just give me the badges. Badges badges badges, that's all I want. It's frustrating to think that players are put together, and instead of ANY real chat or interaction, it's just faceroll as fast as you can, and click leave group even faster, because god-for-fucking-bid, you are actually social in your quest for the +gooder gear.

Edit- just another random thought that I forgot to integrate in this post. Anyone remember the original EQ box, and their selling points advertised on it? One of them was something along the lines of "Can take up to 8 hours to travel from one point in the world to another!" Back then, we found this amazing. I'm not saying this would be wonderful now or anything, but really, it shows you how online gamers' mentality has changed. "I have to take a boat from Stormwind to Northrend to get to Dalaran? That takes 5 minutes! Someone give me a port now!" "Hey I have a job, I don't want anything to take longer than 30 minutes when I log on." While I can't fucking stand the first point, maybe I can understand part of the second one. Still, WHY is everything now a rush to the finish. In classic EQ, when we were new to the genre, many of us did runs across huge zones like the Karanas, or grouped with a group for an hour, or some other random act. But point was, even though it was all in the goal of getting max level, it was never sme bullshit mentality of "I have to complete arbitrary bullshit valor cap tonight or else!" or "I need to get to max level NOW, am I dne with this zone yet?" Not everything has to be a huge grind these days, but that doesn't mean everything has to be bite sized either.
 

Dragoon_sl

shitlord
117
0
There were things about EQ that were difficult, but not many. Saying it was "hard as shit" makes me think you played a different game than I did.

EQ was actually pretty easy. Unlimited CC, debilitating slows, super buffs, only needing to press about 3 buttons. Yea that shit was hard dog.
I can see you very valid point. Ghetto CC, Buffs, 3 buttons. And yes they would seem easy.

My point is that the list of stuff that was "hard" is a lot larger than what was easy. You could not put 5 rogues in a group and be successful.

Side Question:

Why have major MMO's deviated from EQ's "group and grind" mode for experience gain? My favorite memories from EQ consist of XP groups who sole mission was to grind out XP.
Fuck quests. So gay. MMO swater down the word quest. Going and grabbing some shit for an NPC is NOT a quest. its a faggot errand.
 

Gecko_sl

shitlord
1,482
0
There were things about EQ that were difficult, but not many. Saying it was "hard as shit" makes me think you played a different game than I did.

EQ was actually pretty easy. Unlimited CC, debilitating slows, super buffs, only needing to press about 3 buttons. Yea that shit was hard dog.
This is nonsense, unless you started playing EQ in 2005 or your memory of levels was your friend twinking and powering you to 50.

I'd love an average of the amount of times people died in EQ 1-20 in the first few expansions with their first character, compared to how many they died period in any other game.

The best players pushed the envelope while leveling and died much more often. The same is true for groups. This just isn't the case with later MMOs,
 

Khane

Got something right about marriage
19,875
13,393
I can see you very valid point. Ghetto CC, Buffs, 3 buttons. And yes they would seem easy.

My point is that the list of stuff that was "hard" is a lot larger than what was easy. You could not put 5 rogues in a group and be successful.

Side Question:

Why have major MMO's deviated from EQ's "group and grind" mode for experience gain? My favorite memories from EQ consist of XP groups who sole mission was to grind out XP.
Fuck quests. So gay. MMO swater down the word quest. Going and grabbing some shit for an NPC is NOT a quest. its a faggot errand.
I know this is derailing the thread a bit but I just can't help it. Please show me this large list of "hard gameplay" that existed in EQ. Not being able to put 5 pure dps classes in a group and be successful fits your criteria for "hard" apparently so I guess you would consider pretty much every MMORPG on the market hard.

Ghetto CC? I don't think there has been a game since EQ that had such OP CC. What other game could you clear half of a "hard" dungeon (like sebilis) in one pull because you could indefinitely stun unlimited amounts of mobs while your wizard crushed unlimited amounts of mobs with his AE?

Your favorite memories of EQ consist of XP groups who's sole mission was to grind out XP? Are you serious? Did you even play the game beyond that? That was the best part of EQ for you?

I can't argue with your questing comment. That's pretty accurate (excluding the homophobic commentary)
 

Khane

Got something right about marriage
19,875
13,393
This is nonsense, unless you started playing EQ in 2005 or your memory of levels was your friend twinking and powering you to 50.

I'd love an average of the amount of times people died in EQ 1-20 in the first few expansions with their first character, compared to how many they died period in any other game.

The best players pushed the envelope while leveling and died much more often. The same is true for groups. This just isn't the case with later MMOs,
So you want to compare the amount of times someone died in their very first levels in a brand new genre of game that they had probably never experienced before to the amount of deaths in every game they played as an MMO veteran after that. I'm sure that data would be useful for something...

You're right I did die a fair amount my first 15 or so levels in EQ. I was used to playing D2 and I was impatient. Once I learned how to play the game I almost never died... because in order to die in EQ while doing level appropriate content you had to be practically brain dead, or trying to as you say push the envelope... which completely nullifies your argument.

Riding a bike isn't hard once you learn how to do it. But when you start pushing the envelope and trying to clear 15 foot gaps through the air over jumps while supermanning it gets a little more difficult. Except you can just choose not to do that. Riding a bike is easy.
 

Gecko_sl

shitlord
1,482
0
You're right I did die a fair amount my first 15 or so levels in EQ. I was used to playing D2 and I was impatient. Once I learned how to play the game I almost never died... because in order to die in EQ while doing level appropriate content you had to be practically brain dead, or trying to as you say push the envelope... which completely nullifies your argument.
D2 came out a good while after EQ was released. When exactly did you start playing? Which MMOs were harder than early EQ in your opinion?

The reason EQ was more difficult wasn't killing solo orcs in North Ro, it was the fact there was very little hand holding. It sounds like when you started playing it, that time had passed which is too bad.

I think a better analogy is anyone can learn how to Ski. However there's a world of difference in doing so on a closed course with tons of helps and things to simplify it versus out in the wild. Early EQ was out in the wild for me.
 

Khane

Got something right about marriage
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13,393
I started playing EQ around December of 2000. I remember making my first character (an Iksar Shaman) and when I got into the gameworld I couldn't see shit. I actually thought I had crashed and relogged a few times before I realized I was in game but it was really goddamn dark. So I immediately quit that character and made a Barbarian Warrior and when I was running through that goddamn tunnel leaving the newbie area I couldn't see shit again and that's when I realized I could just turn up my gamma, so I switched back to my Shaman and never looked back.

Not understanding mechanics of a genre new to you doesn't make a game difficult, because once you learned the mechanics it became incredibly easy. There was still no hand holding when I started playing and I had no idea things like Allakhazam existed until I was about level 30. But then again maybe I'm falling into the same trap as everyone who claims that finding groups was easy when they played a cleric or chanter. I was a shaman so I found the game very easy.

I think a better analogy is anyone can learn how to Ski. However there's a world of difference in doing so on a closed course with tons of helps and things to simplify it versus out in the wild. Early EQ was out in the wild for me.
You and I are saying the exact same thing.
 

Grim1

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
4,865
6,822
The actual combat of EQ was pretty simple, most modern mmo's have much more complex systems. What made EQ hard wasn't the combat but the world itself and the penalties for failure. Getting through Kael, hoping your invis wouldn't fade. Trying to split a group of mobs hoping your fd would stop fizzling (sk) all while hearing the crunching sounds of your life fading away. Jumping into fear and running for the wall, hoping some idiot wouldn't train the zone on to the raid. The list goes on and on.