EQ Never

Draegan_sl

2 Minutes Hate
10,034
3
I actually think that SOE has a better chance now than before in launching a solid product. It's a pretty perfect time to do something big. EQ1 was a major success. EQ2 was not exactly a flop but it fell flat since it will always be compared to WOW due to launch times.

They had a few shitty games since then either created or purchased post-launch. DCUO's launch was pretty meh but they managed to really do a good job with it post launch. It was their little trial balloon with F2P. THen with PS2 launching pretty successfully, just from a tech perspective, they are building some pretty decent steam here.

Now it will completely rely on whether or not this completely new concept Smed is talking about is actually fun; obviously.
 

Convo

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
8,761
613
I actually think that SOE has a better chance now than before in launching a solid product. It's a pretty perfect time to do something big. EQ1 was a major success. EQ2 was not exactly a flop but it fell flat since it will always be compared to WOW due to launch times.

They had a few shitty games since then either created or purchased post-launch. DCUO's launch was pretty meh but they managed to really do a good job with it post launch. It was their little trial balloon with F2P. THen with PS2 launching pretty successfully, just from a tech perspective, they are building some pretty decent steam here.

Now it will completely rely on whether or not this completely new concept Smed is talking about is actually fun; obviously.
Hah yep. I think a lot of us feel SoE has been out of touch for years with their game designs. So they need to deliver big time. I just hope they haven't underestimated the need for a quality PVE game. I honestly believe there is a large one that continues to grow.
 

Draegan_sl

2 Minutes Hate
10,034
3
This will be both a PVE and PVP game and I very much doubt it will have a raid treadmill attached to it. When Smed is talking about the content cycle and how players churn through it, there probably isn't going to be a traditional PVE end game. That means the only thing left is PVP and building and tearing down player made structures.

Unless they've developed a sophisticated event system where NPCs take over shit and you fight against them or something. I.e. mix Rift and GW2 then add steroids.
 

Convo

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
8,761
613
This will be both a PVE and PVP game and I very much doubt it will have a raid treadmill attached to it. When Smed is talking about the content cycle and how players churn through it, there probably isn't going to be a traditional PVE end game. That means the only thing left is PVP and building and tearing down player made structures.

Unless they've developed a sophisticated event system where NPCs take over shit and you fight against them or something. I.e. mix Rift and GW2 then add steroids.
This will probably be argued to death but if the end game was based around PvP they would probably lose a large portion of their following.. Just my opinion though.
 

Draegan_sl

2 Minutes Hate
10,034
3
What following is that? I would argue that they aren't attempting to grab just the old EQ players, they're trying to grab the majority of the market.

What else could the end game be? They are creating a world with tools players can use to have fun with. That can only mean a few things:
-Open World PVP where you can build stuff and tear down stuff and do territory control.
-Crafting and market manipulation.
-Player made structures.

I don't know what the PVE might be. It might not even be dungeon based, but that's hard to imagine in an Everquest world. What kind of PVE game can you imagine that is player driven? It's either randomly generated content layered on a static world so you can play a Diablo-esque type of gamestyle, or Dungeons to play around in that you soon get bored with.

I'll take a stab in the dark, assuming combat is hotbar based, and say character development will probably be closer TSW than anything else. No levels, skill trees etc. You'll be able to get to top of the tree quickly (few days of played time) but broadening out will take longer. I say this because the rush in any game to max level is so you can get all of your character's skills and have a full toolset. People don't mind grinding for stats and shinies, but they want toplay with a full set of tools. This system allows players to get max toolsets quickly but then they can branch out over time, slowly, which makes them more versatile and powerful. However the quickness to the to the max will give the illusion of a nearly complete character.
 

Grim1

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
4,865
6,822
While I don't doubt that EQNext will have a PvP element, stating that it has to be PvP focused to be an open world game is just wrong. As it is also wrong to state that a PvP focused game is necessary to grab the "majority of the market".

Open worlds and sandbox do not mean PvP. PvP is just the easiest element to implement in sandbox games.
 

Convo

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
8,761
613
What following is that? I would argue that they aren't attempting to grab just the old EQ players, they're trying to grab the majority of the market.

What else could the end game be? They are creating a world with tools players can use to have fun with. That can only mean a few things:
-Open World PVP where you can build stuff and tear down stuff and do territory control.
-Crafting and market manipulation.
-Player made structures.

I don't know what the PVE might be. It might not even be dungeon based, but that's hard to imagine in an Everquest world. What kind of PVE game can you imagine that is player driven? It's either randomly generated content layered on a static world so you can play a Diablo-esque type of gamestyle, or Dungeons to play around in that you soon get bored with.

I'll take a stab in the dark, assuming combat is hotbar based, and say character development will probably be closer TSW than anything else. No levels, skill trees etc. You'll be able to get to top of the tree quickly (few days of played time) but broadening out will take longer. I say this because the rush in any game to max level is so you can get all of your character's skills and have a full toolset. People don't mind grinding for stats and shinies, but they want toplay with a full set of tools. This system allows players to get max toolsets quickly but then they can branch out over time, slowly, which makes them more versatile and powerful. However the quickness to the to the max will give the illusion of a nearly complete character.
If they were attempting to grab the masses they would of went a head with their second version before they scrapped it. That point could be argued both ways.

Considering Smed's comments about how crazy the concept was you can't rule out a design that is based heavily on PVE in the end game either. I'm not saying there wont be an outerlands area that is contested for PvP. I just think that it's a mistake if they take this IP and turn it into something it's not. That's like Ultima releasing Ultima next and it being 95% PVE. Everything you say deviates away from what Everquest is. Why even call it EQ? That's not what it would be and at that point they would just be using the name in hopes to draw in more attention. They would be better served creating a new IP for a PvP game. I dunno man.. I find it really hard to figure out where you stand with games. You seem to fall back into describing games that have released recently. PVP has not advanced much despite what people might think so to assume they can release this amazing end game PvP experience might be as naive as me thinking they can create a huge sandbox PvE. I don't see PvP and sandbox married to each other the way you do.

P.S. I'm 50/50 that Popsicledeath was your troll account=p
 

Draegan_sl

2 Minutes Hate
10,034
3
While I don't doubt that EQNext will have a PvP element, stating that it has to be PvP focused to be an open world game is just wrong. As it is also wrong to state that a PvP focused game is necessary to grab the "majority of the market".

Open worlds and sandbox do not mean PvP. PvP is just the easiest element to implement in sandbox games.
Yes I know, but Smed is talking about giving players the tools. It doesn't seem they're very keen on a constantly stream of content, or at least that is the most focused part of their game. Just speculation of course.

What do you think an "end game" would be in an open world that is not focused on a constant developer content cycle?
 

Convo

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
8,761
613
What do you think an "end game" would be in an open world that is not focused on a constant developer content cycle?
That's the million dollar question and I get the conversations you're trying to spark. Smed talks like they have this radical idea so I'm hoping its something that floors us. But PvP in an open world for objectives, resources, etc isn't anything new. That's why I find it hard to believe that's their main focus.
 

Daidraco

Golden Baronet of the Realm
9,312
9,419
Yes I know, but Smed is talking about giving players the tools. It doesn't seem they're very keen on a constantly stream of content, or at least that is the most focused part of their game. Just speculation of course.

What do you think an "end game" would be in an open world that is not focused on a constant developer content cycle?
Not everyone enjoys PVP. So if thats the end game, what happens to that rather large audience that doesnt enjoy it? Crafting isnt the answer, but only a temporary substitute.

If SoE truly does release this game and it has some real potential - you can be sure Titan wont be far behind to crush it into mediocrity.

(Edit - Had to get rid of Million Dollar Question since Convo and I were on the same wave length, apparently.)
 

Tolan

Member of the Year 2016
<Banned>
7,249
2,038
You guys should focus your effort on gleaning more info from SOE folk, instead of speculating over and over about something which we know nothing about.
 

Convo

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
8,761
613
You guys should focus your effort on gleaning more info from SOE folk, instead of speculating over and over about something which we know nothing about.
Ive tried.. Info is tight. Mughul claims he works at SoE but minus taking him for his word there is no way to verify unless he drops some info before it's released to the masses.
 

Draegan_sl

2 Minutes Hate
10,034
3
If they were attempting to grab the masses they would of went a head with their second version before they scrapped it. That point could be argued both ways.

Considering Smed's comments about how crazy the concept was you can't rule out a design that is based heavily on PVE in the end game either. I'm not saying there wont be an outerlands area that is contested for PvP. I just think that it's a mistake if they take this IP and turn it into something it's not. That's like Ultima releasing Ultima next and it being 95% PVE. Everything you say deviates away from what Everquest is. Why even call it EQ? That's not what it would be and at that point they would just be using the name in hopes to draw in more attention. They would be better served creating a new IP for a PvP game. I dunno man.. I find it really hard to figure out where you stand with games. You seem to fall back into describing games that have released recently. PVP has not advanced much despite what people might think so to assume they can release this amazing end game PvP experience might be as naive as me thinking they can create a huge sandbox PvE. I don't see PvP and sandbox married to each other the way you do.

P.S. I'm 50/50 that Popsicledeath was your troll account=p
Maybe I missed something but what was their second version again? SOE is going to attempt to grab as many people as possible and make the most money. They aren't shooting for niche here.

I don't have a real stand on games, I take each for what it's worth. I enjoy any form of game as long as its fun. I have equal preference of PVE and PVP. What I'm trying to do is get an idea of the perspective of SOE and what they are making.

Maybe I don't have enough caffeine in my blood right now, but I'm having a hard time thinking what kind of content an EQ flavored sandbox game that is heavy on the PVE side of things without a PVP element to it. What makes it difficult is the line where Smed said that devs can never make content fast enough so they're not going to try, but instead make tools for players to use.

I interpret that as meaning there won't be your typical raid/gear treadmill. So what does that leave players to do? I assume that you'll have a healthy dose of crafting and player made structures and stuff. The I assume some sort of item market is tossed in there. Toss in no fast travel and you have a pseudo EVE (forget character skills/development for now). Then players, on the PVE side of things, can do missions or whatever but in EVE those tend to be instanced and generated on the side which works well in the emptiness of space. Would be a cool way of generating materials for crafting instead of node farming.

But in EVE, there are spots in the universe that is all PVP.

I don't think the game is being designed for full on PVP like PS2 at all. It's just my line of thinking that the cheapest content is PVP stuff because it's always different and it's free. It's players doing stuff to to players. Unless they go the way of ATitD what other content could you put in to make it heavy PVE?
 

Rezz

Mr. Poopybutthole
4,486
3,531
Procedural content with procedural bosses based upon content consumption. People killing all the orcs in an area for faction or something? Less orcs overall spawn and more kobolds start popping up. Keep killing orcs and avoiding Kobolds? Orcs stop spawning and a boss Kobold spawns. Crafting materials could have similar pve triggered spawn mechanics in that if you continually harvest all the oak trees in an area, oak trees become more rare in that area and you end up with random spruce or something showing up in greater quantities to make up for it.

As to how that translates to raid/endgame content? All orcs being killed on a continent or group of zones (or game wide, whatever) contribute to the potential spawning of a Kobold King raid boss with a series of preset combat skill lists. One Kobold King may play imitation AoW and quad/Flurry while the next casts AE Ice Comet continuously or something. That would be a tier one raid boss. Then, as various normal mob Kings are killed, the potential spawning of a Dragon tics up with a similar but more in depth skillset spawns in an applicable area.

There, effectively players are creating their own raid/endgame content by simply killing mobs and shit. Could add town criers and crap(player made newspapers, whatever) that let people know when a population is nearing the spawning point. Or leave it blank. Whatever.

I'd imagine they could easily put in scaling shit like that that was moddable enough without the need to playtest every possible build because SANDBOX doesn't require razor-thin margins of error for content balance. Increase model size appropriately because who doesn't want to raid Giant Frogloks? No story, no quest, no handholding. Just shit spawns when other shit is killed in enough quantity.
 

Convo

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
8,761
613
Maybe I missed something but what was their second version again? SOE is going to attempt to grab as many people as possible and make the most money. They aren't shooting for niche here.

I don't have a real stand on games, I take each for what it's worth. I enjoy any form of game as long as its fun. I have equal preference of PVE and PVP. What I'm trying to do is get an idea of the perspective of SOE and what they are making.

Maybe I don't have enough caffeine in my blood right now, but I'm having a hard time thinking what kind of content an EQ flavored sandbox game that is heavy on the PVE side of things without a PVP element to it. What makes it difficult is the line where Smed said that devs can never make content fast enough so they're not going to try, but instead make tools for players to use.

I interpret that as meaning there won't be your typical raid/gear treadmill. So what does that leave players to do? I assume that you'll have a healthy dose of crafting and player made structures and stuff. The I assume some sort of item market is tossed in there. Toss in no fast travel and you have a pseudo EVE (forget character skills/development for now). Then players, on the PVE side of things, can do missions or whatever but in EVE those tend to be instanced and generated on the side which works well in the emptiness of space. Would be a cool way of generating materials for crafting instead of node farming.

But in EVE, there are spots in the universe that is all PVP.

I don't think the game is being designed for full on PVP like PS2 at all. It's just my line of thinking that the cheapest content is PVP stuff because it's always different and it's free. It's players doing stuff to to players. Unless they go the way of ATitD what other content could you put in to make it heavy PVE?
They just said the second version was pretty good but more of the same in regards to what's already out. Knowing that EQN originally set out to be more like EQ1 we can draw some conclusions I guess.

I've already said I'm having a hard time picturing how they will go about content if it were heavily PvE. I did give some ideas that leaned towards a destructible world. The mining example a few pages back.. I could also see resources like trees becoming endangered.. Not sure how I feel about having to replant shit tho. It's really hard to predict the outcome. That's why I wish they would just fucking come out and say something already.
 

Draegan_sl

2 Minutes Hate
10,034
3
Procedural content with procedural bosses based upon content consumption. People killing all the orcs in an area for faction or something? Less orcs overall spawn and more kobolds start popping up. Keep killing orcs and avoiding Kobolds? Orcs stop spawning and a boss Kobold spawns. Crafting materials could have similar pve triggered spawn mechanics in that if you continually harvest all the oak trees in an area, oak trees become more rare in that area and you end up with random spruce or something showing up in greater quantities to make up for it.

As to how that translates to raid/endgame content? All orcs being killed on a continent or group of zones (or game wide, whatever) contribute to the potential spawning of a Kobold King raid boss with a series of preset combat skill lists. One Kobold King may play imitation AoW and quad/Flurry while the next casts AE Ice Comet continuously or something. That would be a tier one raid boss. Then, as various normal mob Kings are killed, the potential spawning of a Dragon tics up with a similar but more in depth skillset spawns in an applicable area.

There, effectively players are creating their own raid/endgame content by simply killing mobs and shit. Could add town criers and crap(player made newspapers, whatever) that let people know when a population is nearing the spawning point. Or leave it blank. Whatever.

I'd imagine they could easily put in scaling shit like that that was moddable enough without the need to playtest every possible build because SANDBOX doesn't require razor-thin margins of error for content balance. Increase model size appropriately because who doesn't want to raid Giant Frogloks? No story, no quest, no handholding. Just shit spawns when other shit is killed in enough quantity.
I thought GW2 was going to do something like that, but I was wrong. But yes, if they can pull off event scripting and that kind of procedural stuff then that would be great. The tough part is making it varied enough so it's just not another bar your have to fill up. Hopefully it's not a bar at all and it just happens. But it's really difficult to pull it off right. Because after the first or second time, it'll become "lets grind orcs to force phase 2" or "Only phase 1? I'll log in later for phase 3 so I can grind X Y Z". It's got to vary a bit more and not be as stale and repetitive.

Remember some GW2 devblog where they said you can raid a goblin town and talk to the king and if you kill him X happens and if you save him Y happens or whatever? That shit never happened. It's tough and time intensive to create. I hope they do it though, that shit would be great.
 

Rezz

Mr. Poopybutthole
4,486
3,531
I thought GW2 was going to do something like that, but I was wrong. But yes, if they can pull off event scripting and that kind of procedural stuff then that would be great. The tough part is making it varied enough so it's just not another bar your have to fill up. Hopefully it's not a bar at all and it just happens. But it's really difficult to pull it off right. Because after the first or second time, it'll become "lets grind orcs to force phase 2" or "Only phase 1? I'll log in later for phase 3 so I can grind X Y Z". It's got to vary a bit more and not be as stale and repetitive.

Remember some GW2 devblog where they said you can raid a goblin town and talk to the king and if you kill him X happens and if you save him Y happens or whatever? That shit never happened. It's tough and time intensive to create. I hope they do it though, that shit would be great.
I'm not sure event scripting really needs to be a focus with these type of procedural spawns. It would probably be really simple to just come up with a set of parameters that are npc neutral (ie, not specific to any individual mob in the game) that can be randomly or semi-randomly assigned. Sort of like prefixes on Diablo mobs. Can be explicitly stated in the mob title or not. Bertog the Axe-Lord or Marvin Ice-Flinger. Then have more complex series of parameters as the content gets into higher tiers.

As to logging in and going "Just going to kill orcs today!" that's fine, people can do that intentionally to try and cull populations. But being that it would take the work of many people lots of time to force spawn a specific mob, it would be more in line with stuff happening semi-naturally. Also, nothing is a bar that can be seen. All that stuff would be server side and hidden.

The idea would also make people want to travel to different areas if monsters are not of a type they currently wish to fight. EC has too many goddamn darkweed snakes? Go to WC to kill Kodiacs instead. And to force spawn stuff would effectively require coordination (combine respawn rates and semi to completely random modifiers on just what is required to cull a population) so that inherently means you have to get the community involved in the creation of endgame content.

Then, to spice things up a bit, you could easily have static spawns that require certain conditions to be met before they show up. An average crafting level on the server of X and 2 red dragons would spawn Mordath the Ice Giant Tinkerer in some frozen cavern that would drop schematics for higher level crafting techniques or killing would create a game/faction/guildwide buff that potentially returns crafting materials or something. The only way to coordinate on the level to force spawn specifics like that would require inside knowledge of the game to "force" it. And since in my theoretical system if you are forcing dragons to spawn, it means that players are actively coordinating shit to kill the requisite number of kings, which can really only be forced by coordinating the killing of specific mobs in specific zones. I think people would be willing to sacrifice a little bit of 100% freedom in order to have a game that rewards player interaction and a solidified community.

I mean, in theory that is what happened with EQ anyway.

As to the tech being super difficult to implement? At least involving mob AI, I can't see it being that difficult to come up with a system that semi/fully randomizes a set number of abilities for npcs/mobs based upon relative difficulty. I likened the concept to the idea of the Gambit system from FF12 (stfu I liked that game =|) but instead of being for players it is for developers. Each tier would have a number of slots corresponding with their difficulty to put in responses and abilities they use. Then, for each tier, have half of the slots on a complete random slant that uses level specific abilities appropriately.

For complete implementation, I can see why GW2 didn't do it. As much as they wanted to not be "you don't just pick up quests to collect bear asses!" they really ended up exactly that, except that it became "You have entered the area of bear ass collecting. PREPARE TO ANAL-SCALP BEARS!" The game had a narrative and a sandbox game, in theory, probably wouldn't. Modern games generally use a sort of random "mobs of x type and y type spawn here" localized style of mobs popping up. In the theoretical game idea I am proposing, it would use almost identical concepts except that it would sort of have a concept of "if less mobs of type x exist, spawn more type y" in a given area. Then to spawn a boss type mob, it would just check for "if mobs of type x > y, and mobs of type x > $($ is a minimum amount of mobs of type x to spawn a boss mob) and mobs of type y < #(where # is some predetermined threshold for potentially spawning a boss), spawn mob type x boss."

Yes my programming lingo sucks, but you get the idea. Instead of spending time heavily scripting events and encounters, they would instead spend time on creating the system that allows that type of spawning to happen smoothly. To increase, you simply add more spawn parameters. Then, in the background, whenever one of the conditions are met for spawning raid bosses or whatever, tally marks are added to the requirements that would cause the next tier of stuff too.

So instead of spawn timers on raid mobs or named mobs or anything other than normal npcs in general, you would have everything controlled by population fluctuation and overall content consumption speed. Higher content consumption? More shit to do. Low content consumption? Less shit to do.

But! All that being said, this is Sony and they have next to zero sandbox cred at this point. So we'll see what they come up with.
 

Nirgon

YOU HAVE NO POWER HERE
12,833
19,818
Thread is going to go berserk whenever an update is released, can't wait.

I'm leaning towards definitely picking it up, even just to get to max level and not miss out on an EQ game launch.

Whether or not they hold my sub or I buy xpacs is another matter.
 

Draegan_sl

2 Minutes Hate
10,034
3
That sounds like you're now creating an eco system in your game. It think some studios have tried doing that before but there were some issues with it. If someone did that in a proper way, that would bring a lot of immersion back in the system.

For a long time dev studios wanted to create a static experience. Every time you log in you know what to expect and you can always experience something. I mentioned somewhere else before that when I was at a fansite summit at Trion and Hartsman was talking, they had a system that was organic with their dynamic event systems. They thought it was a determent that if Person A said something cool happened to Person B and when Person B logged on the next day to check it out and nothing was there.

I think that they stopped way to early with that design idea. Because as soon as Person B gets over being disappointed he missed something, he should be experiencing cool event #2 and telling Person A about it. Then once people are trained to not expect the same thing every day, they won't be disappointed about missing shit, because they will always want to know what happens next.

But that requires some really smart system designers and engineers. Rift had a lot of the tech for that and I think if you design a system around design an ecosystem where everything was baking in a behavioral reaction system, it would be really cool. I defintely know people have coded in like migration shit for animals and wolves and sheep breeding and culling.
 

Draegan_sl

2 Minutes Hate
10,034
3
Thread is going to go berserk whenever an update is released, can't wait.

I'm leaning towards definitely picking it up, even just to get to max level and not miss out on an EQ game launch.

Whether or not they hold my sub or I buy xpacs is another matter.
It's anything but confirmed that it'll be F2p with a microtrans system. Go look at how they do PS2. SOE will never go the sub route again as long as Smedley is in charge.