EQ Never

Rezz_sl said:

Gear loot is an interesting mechanic but should be regulated to specific servers. It is possible to have a "sandbox" without being able to steal shit from everyone you kill. As to driving the game, all you need to do is add durability in a smart way. Not "You died, lose 10% durability lawlz!" WoW method. That stuff is dumb. Instead, add in "Time and use decrepifies equipment. You need someone of the right crafting discipline to fix it" and then it requires materials on par with what you are repairing. Raid gear should not be easy to hammer out at the forge for an amateur and a piece of metal. Raid quality content should drop specific materials that are used to repair raid quality gear. That same material? Should be also what crafts raid quality gear. Make the choice. Wear your best and use the best materials to keep it in shape, or wear your second best while you create the best slowly.

Options!

Click to expand...

So long as the materials don't require you to blow up said raid gear when it's relevant to repair, or force you to spend excessive time farming in the raid zone to acquire enough material to throw yourself at the next boss for a few nights. I dig the idea, though.

Rezz_sl said:

Gear loot is an interesting mechanic but should be regulated to specific servers. It is possible to have a "sandbox" without being able to steal shit from everyone you kill. As to driving the game, all you need to do is add durability in a smart way. Not "You died, lose 10% durability lawlz!" WoW method. That stuff is dumb. Instead, add in "Time and use decrepifies equipment. You need someone of the right crafting discipline to fix it" and then it requires materials on par with what you are repairing. Raid gear should not be easy to hammer out at the forge for an amateur and a piece of metal. Raid quality content should drop specific materials that are used to repair raid quality gear. That same material? Should be also what crafts raid quality gear. Make the choice. Wear your best and use the best materials to keep it in shape, or wear your second best while you create the best slowly.

Click to expand...

Isn't this essentially how DAoC approached it?

Royal_sl said:

Isn't this essentially how DAoC approached it?

Click to expand...

To a degree yes. One aspect I will happily steal from a previous game.

Ukerric_sl said:

Stop right there. Why?

I know, you don't want to lose your precious raid gear, but reasonably, why? If we go back a very successful model (again, EVE), then there are PVE drops, they're generally a bit better than their crafted equivalents... and they blow up and are looted exactly the same as crafted modules. And guess what? People tend not to use too many of them in PVP, not because there's a rule against that, but due to that exact reason. Because they're likely to lose them if things go south.

If you have a game like EVE where the economy is a great driving force for the game dynamics, generating demand for materials, hence territorial control for those materials, then having half of your equipment indestructible and unlootable means that you've just cut the economy in half, and weakened suddenly the driver for conflict that makes your game dynamic. And if you don't use the economy as a driver for your game, then you don't need a strong one, so why have half of your equipment crafted and lootable? Why not none of it?

The idea of "half of your equipment comes from PVE and obeys different rules" means essentially that you've just weakened both sides: your pvp is weaker (less incentives), and your pve is weaker (why try to loot more pve stuff, since I can't use it anyway).

Click to expand...

I personally believe that the crafting level of players should be proportional to the content available in the world. If the highest anyone has killed is a lowly red drake... then that is the crafting level available. Crafted gear can be identical to dropped, it just requires money and time comparatively. If the highest is some ancient named Red Dragon who has terrorized the lands for an epoch or two? Crafting is available that is far beyond the means of servers that haven't slain any dragons of that quality.

Effectively, tie server progression to available crafting recipes. And then tie those crafted items into progression in meaningful ways. Thus, you have an intertwined system and one that requires players to make gear from available shit and using crafting focused PCs in order to move forward. Can't craft the latest tier of gear? Then you get a super rape-mode Boss that deflects all your attacks. Tie stuff together. Crafting is PVE. One should not eclipse the other, one should simply supplant the need to use the other in the best case scenario. Eswin the Asshole drops the best combination of dagger stats you can have at level 20. You can also thrice forge a dagger to get those stats, but spending an hour to kill Eswin vs. ponying up 10k *imaginary dollars* for the dagger is the choice of the player.

Ukerric_sl said:

Stop right there. Why?

I know, you don't want to lose your precious raid gear, but reasonably, why? If we go back a very successful model (again, EVE), then there are PVE drops, they're generally a bit better than their crafted equivalents... and they blow up and are looted exactly the same as crafted modules. And guess what? People tend not to use too many of them in PVP, not because there's a rule against that, but due to that exact reason. Because they're likely to lose them if things go south.

Click to expand...

Because this game would not be EvE?

The drops would require a lot of work in terms of cooperation and time investment, and would still be rare and random. In addition, you'd only be allowed a certain amount of them AND they would be fully tradeable after use. This is all meant to build notoriety for dungeons and raiding, in order to draw cooperative groups into that paradigm.

Anyway, I can't tell you the amount of times I've heard "you can do PvE in even, but it sucks."---EvE is not a good example of building a working PVE raid system into a game.

If you have a game like EVE where the economy is a great driving force for the game dynamics, generating demand for materials, hence territorial control for those materials, then having half of your equipment indestructible and unlootable means that you've just cut the economy in half, and weakened suddenly the driver for conflict that makes your game dynamic. And if you don't use the economy as a driver for your game, then you don't need a strong one, so why have half of your equipment crafted and lootable? Why not none of it?

Click to expand...

Because if done right you can achieve both. If half your gear comes from rare materials and map control, and half comes from PvE BUT some of that PvE is ALSO dependent on server control (And not faction based server control, but instead a more guild/alliance based system--which would be complex, but like I said, it was a short summary)--then you obtain all elements of social conflict.

For example, lets say your game has a rich PvE raid environment (Pure one)...And lets also say on one particular day, sets of mines that spawn rich ore (For high crafting Materials) spawn in XY mountains. AND a raid dungeon entrance also spawns there. If you can manage to control this territory, you can farm it for X days after winning it. Do you really believe you've cut down on the stakes behind controlling that territory?Or do you think you've just invited a bunch of more PvE focused players to enjoin in an guild alliance with PvP players to take the territory? (Lets say there is an alliance mechanic that gives clear victory the ability to set friendly all players in the alliance.)

Also, as for "cutting in the half the drive"...Human beings don't just stop gathering goods because they've supplied half their overall goals. We don't function like that. Especially if our goals are evolving through an ever changing need of variables (As said about the horizontal leveling system making different sets of PvE gear desired.)...If the core of our game is conflict, most people will always set out to gain every advantage possible. Especially if that advantage translates to "ritual victories" (Again referring to Durkhiem). If you design it right, they are going to be just as driven for 5 pieces as 10. BUT that doesn't even matter--because getting all ten pieces should be intertwined anyway (You'll need both conflict and cooperation to gain a good suit. )

The idea of "half of your equipment comes from PVE and obeys different rules" means essentially that you've just weakened both sides: your pvp is weaker (less incentives), and your pve is weaker (why try to loot more pve stuff, since I can't use it anyway).

Click to expand...

No, what you've done is combine both to make them both essential. How did anything I say make PvP weaker? If anything, it increased the incentives AND does the most important thing of all--gets more bodies into PvP because it's needed to access the full breadth of the game.

As for not looting more PvE stuff. AGAIN, every system is designed for this. Which means, first off, that you won't be looting too much PvE gear at all. On the whole,PvE gear will be extremely rare--and come from high social input sources. A pure PvE player might have access to his full alotment, but if it's done right he won't have a "perfect" gear set for his build before the end of an expansion (Even if he focuses all on PvE).

ALSO, it will be full tradeable, which means you can sell it, or even twink with it (Absolutely no restrictions)...So given the rare nature of these drops (Rarity vs variable need), they should, if your market is big enough (Which it will be since we're designing the game for a large subset), be valuable even if your overall gear is completed (Because you can sell it for money that might give you access to a better crafted piece, which might re-open your base gear to give access to another PvE piece). So even if I wasn't a PvE-er, so the god sword isn't as good for me as my current load out, the god-sword would still be valuable to me because of how open the economy is and the high demand for it (Due to all the reasons listed so far in terms of variables.)

Like I said, everything must be designed from the ground up with this in mind. Every system is interdependent. Nothing is weakened, rather it's all made to rely on each other more. Gear being rare, plus player needs changing as their skills are augmented creating demand for different statistics from gear, in addition to social constraints requiring high time (But not commitment per session) to farm pieces--will create an environment where a lot of PvE gear is wanted, but not a lot can be gained. In order to gain more, you breed conflict, which forces more need for crafted gear. Everything working together to force players into using each other for control.

I'm not certain how folks are coming to the conclusion that the game will release this year, other than an article that screamed ellipses to me. The only definitive statement made was that a sample demonstration will be unveiled at E3 in June.

Lammy_sl said:

I'm not certain how folks are coming to the conclusion that the game will release this year, other than an article that screamed ellipses to me. The only definitive statement made was that a sample demonstration will be unveiled at E3 in June.

Click to expand...

Which is when PS2's beta opened up more last year.

That's the article I was referring to with my ellipsis comment.

I hope that your optimism pulls through. Seems awfully soon in my opinion, as they've just recently settled on a design for the game. Can't wait to see that plethora of well designed content. But then again, I don't know much about the development process and lead times. I just know how to play them.

Elidroth_sl said:

You're completely wrong as a matter of fact.

Click to expand...

"there's a sucker born every minute." that's you!

Pretty sure Elidroth works for Sony, so I highly doubt he's a sucker who has been lured into misbelieving. On the other hand, Sony has zero track record with making Sandbox games, so I am firmly in the wait and see category, so distrusting the words of someone who works for a company regarding that company's products is totally natural.

Rezz_sl said:

Pretty sure Elidroth works for Sony, so I highly doubt he's a sucker who has been lured into misbelieving. On the other hand, Sony has zero track record with making Sandbox games, so I am firmly in the wait and see category, so distrusting the words of someone who works for a company regarding that company's products is totally natural.

Click to expand...

like i'm really going to believe someone from sony? might as well give all my money to bernie madoff while i'm at it.

If it's a high tech modern EQ, it'll be worth the money. I wouldn't have a problem paying for xpacs hand over fist as they came out and were good.

The money is definitely out there if they'll invest for it and build something bad ass.

We're tired of wishy-washy repeato-questing games.

"It's going to be the world's largest sandbox game."

I doubt they hit on a 100% original idea, so my guess is they played a lot of minecraft.

Ayeshala_sl said:

"It's going to be the world's largest sandbox game."

I doubt they hit on a 100% original idea, so my guess is they played a lot of minecraft.

Click to expand...

Anything is better than a Quest-Driven MMORPG.

But too bad, you'd think EverQuest sequels would play like their predecessor. I know I have an urge to play something 90% like EverQuest Classic. There is a market for that. They could have implemented the Sandbox idea in another IP or a brand new one.

Anyway like I said, anything is better than a game that looks and plays exactly like World of Warcraft.

I just want an ever changing landscape, even if it's small things. Those peons in The Barrens used to be piss me off, 5 years and they hadn't done SHIT. Worst fucking workers ever, definitely not Mexicans, those people get shit done.

The ability to reshape the world and redefine cities and borders and stuff would be pretty cool, though. Ogres storming Kelethin and shit.

If it is quest driven, I hope for the questing system to be rewound a bit. I really enjoy the challenge of classic's NPC interaction for quests. No lame dialogue, silly icons, glittery pathways, or quest journals. We had to figure it out and at times really know the lore. Yes, you could go on forums and websites and work with others to figure some of the more involved quests out, but if you were at the forefront of the the progression curve, it was a true challenge. Sure there were some less difficult quests, but even they and their NPCs are memorable to this day. Jboots, Epics, BiC, Shawl, etc.

Not only were the quests more in depth, but just figuring out where to begin them was a task. No faggot GPS maps showing you right where you have to go. I feel like I can navigate without even looking through my character now a days. Just pull up a map and pac-man your little arrow to your destination. Unfortunately, society in general has become more lazy and inept, so this is probably a lot to ask of them.