EQ Never

Grim1_sl said:

That could be, but my point still stands. Tons of money means less risks can be taken.

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I agree, but proper iteration and design isn't a "high risk". A high risk would be a complete overhaul of all gaming elements and putting out something completely unique. SWTOR could of been amazingly successful if they spent their resources differently. You can go to any SWTOR thread on any message board to see a myriad of ideas on what would of been better. That amazing flop of a game is well documented.

Draegan_sl said:

That and SWTOR was fucking retarded voice acting the whole damn thing.

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Story quests? Sure, voice act away. All the other "quests" in the game? Give me a popup with text so I can choose to read or not. Holy shit saved them -millions- without really doing much of anything. The one thing that should be stolen from TOR should be companions and the linked activities.

Nothing stops players from joining or creating groups in these games without a quick-action LFG tool. People can and do create and join groups the old fashioned way every day in these games. It doesn't make/break/alter server community in the slightest, it just lets people do stuff when they are online instead of -hoping- they can do stuff.

Now, how to implement that in a game with more than 3 roles, however. I would imagine the leader should just get a dropdown menu with a list of classes and a preferred level range and let them go. Don't minimize the shit into roles. Let people pick and choose what types of classes they put in their group. This of course would sort of dictate defined class roles/specialties that are generally not duplicated across similar classes within the archetype. SK's Dark/FD/Invis, Paladin's heals/buffs, yada yada.

Really though, when it comes to groups/whatever and perceived difficulty along with server community soforth and so-on, it isn't really that difficult to put shit into proper perspective even if you include a cross server LFG tool. "Leveling" dungeons have the ability to be popped into via LFG. Intro endgame dungeons have the ability to be popped into once they are cleared or a certain unlock is completed. Raids cannot be LFR'd until they are cleared the old fashioned way (and still result in weaker gear) if that floats your boat. Hell, just make all Groupfinder type dungeon deals result in lower rates of rare spawn and rare drop if folks honestly think people should be punished for not sitting around sending tells to everyone with a /lfg tag that might be willing to travel et all. The simple fact is, it is a tool and an incredibly useful one to both promote game longevity (people will quit if they can't play the game) as well as being a straight up QoL boon.

nobody quits a fucking mmo because he has to spend a few minutes putting a group together. and the problem isn't a lack of cross-server tools. the problem is that these games have too many servers to begin with.

Rezz_sl said:

Story quests? Sure, voice act away. All the other "quests" in the game? Give me a popup with text so I can choose to read or not.

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Pretty much this but take it a step further. I hate questing the way it is done now. Fill up your quest log then run around like a f'ing retard checking them off. In EQ1 I only did a few quests during my whole career. Some ubah gear quests and the epic weapon quest(s).

I loved the eqic weapon quest and it's storyline. But doing thousands of them is boring. Give me one huge overarching quest that takes me to max level, gives me a super cool weapon, kills the dragon and saves the world. A few side quests for awesome gear and thats it. All the rest are a waste of time. I only do them in mmo's because that is where the xp is now days.

Quests are gay. Give me a group, lets grind all damn day.

Rezz_sl said:

Really though, when it comes to groups/whatever and perceived difficulty along with server community soforth and so-on, it isn't really that difficult to put shit into proper perspective even if you include a cross server LFG tool. "Leveling" dungeons have the ability to be popped into via LFG. Intro endgame dungeons have the ability to be popped into once they are cleared or a certain unlock is completed. Raids cannot be LFR'd until they are cleared the old fashioned way (and still result in weaker gear) if that floats your boat. Hell, just make all Groupfinder type dungeon deals result in lower rates of rare spawn and rare drop if folks honestly think people should be punished for not sitting around sending tells to everyone with a /lfg tag that might be willing to travel et all. The simple fact is, it is a tool and an incredibly useful one to both promote game longevity (people will quit if they can't play the game) as well as being a straight up QoL boon.

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That's just artificially gating things for no reason what so ever. Why would you want to gate access to a LFG tool though?

Draegan_sl said:

You just spit out a bunch platitudes that mean absolutely nothing. What you wrote sounds warm and fuzzy but really doesn't have any bearing on design. If you have a typical game where you have your population split between Leveling and End-Game-Stuff then your Leveling content will be incredibly underpopulated where cross server grouping tools will be necessary 6 months after launch. If server sizes stay relatively the same, you'll never have enough new players and alts running through the game to form dungeon groups at any given time.

Now I don't know what kind of design elements you mean by "relevant dungeons and open world" and "aid in progressing your character". Do you mean that end game dungeons are used by low level players and max level players at the same time? Are lower level players and max level players grouping together? Will max level players have incentive to group with lower level players if they are sharing the same space or will they eventually just ignore low level players because it's more efficient if you can just find max level players thus shutting out low level players?

I mean you can see this dynamic in most games where players advertise a certain gear level or power level for a group, then as the game ages that minimum power level creeps up as gear saturation spreads throughout the population thus creating a greater barrier of entry for lower level, or fresh max level players. This happens in every game where players have a pool of people to pick from when they are doing the picking. In an automated system those lower power players get to play regardless of their gear as long it matches the "requirements" of the LFG system.

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It isn't about being warm and fuzzy, it's about LFG tools are hardly used even in games that it is even needed. So why waste development time "trying to get it right" when you could just focus on the core game and see if it is even needed. I still stand that a good game doesn't need a LFG tool. Sure, it's convenient but I would rather just talk it out, find people, and form my groups. I guess to me, it is just another one of those features that takes another layer from the game and players that would add more depth to the game.

supertouch_sl said:

nobody quits a fucking mmo because he has to spend a few minutes putting a group together. and the problem isn't a lack of cross-server tools. the problem is that these games have too many servers to begin with.

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Look at how wrong and stupid you are.

supertouch_sl said:

nobody quits a fucking mmo because he has to spend a few minutes putting a group together. and the problem isn't a lack of cross-server tools. the problem is that these games have too many servers to begin with.

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That is not the case what so ever. If anyone could find a group for a specific dungeon in a few minutes in any game, no one would ever of created a LFG tool, let alone a cross server one. In fact, reality is much different. Hell, even in WOW, if you're dps it takes more than a few minutes to get into a dungeon group and that's with cross server.

The other added factor of a LFG tool is that you can set it and go about your day and play the game while you wait for a group instead of sitting around looking for action in chat channels for 20-30 minutes.

Muligan_sl said:

It isn't about being warm and fuzzy, it's about LFG tools are hardly used even in games that it is even needed. So why waste development time "trying to get it right" when you could just focus on the core game and see if it is even needed. I still stand that a good game doesn't need a LFG tool. Sure, it's convenient but I would rather just talk it out, find people, and form my groups. I guess to me, it is just another one of those features that takes another layer from the game and players that would add more depth to the game.

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Yes, but everyone else isn't like us. And whether we like it or not, LFG tools are expected by the modern mmo playerbase. Ignoring those expectations just hurts the business side of creating a succesful mmo. LFG tools don't hurt any game, but they do help.

Convo_sl said:

What games have people quit because they can't find a group?! You can hardly get people to group because they are busy soloing...

I quit a game because its boring and for no other reason. Actually all my years of gaming I don't know a single person who quit a game because they could not get a group.

Seriously..lets worry about making a game people actually want to play before the LFG tool. All the tools in the world are noting go hold players attention if the game itself fails.

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What? You're ignoring history here. Just look at WOW from a statistical point of view when they introduce their grouping tools. You can make the best dungeons in the history of dungeons, but if you're forming a group and it's taking you forever to find a healer or tank you're gonna get pissed off and stop playing the game eventually.

Also, I would assume you've always had a strong core of support with friends and guilds that play these games that really assist you in the matter.

Draegan_sl said:

That's just artificially gating things for no reason what so ever. Why would you want to gate access to a LFG tool though?

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I don't want to, but the hardcore mmo hipsters love making things difficult in the name of "community" so I tend to post ideas that try and bridge the gap. WoW's tool updated so that you can set specific class preferences and not just "tank/dps/healer" would be my primary suggestion, but that invokes the game that rustles mad hipster jimmies. Never quite understood the mad hatred for QoL features in games by other people who played EQ, personally.

Convo_sl said:

I already said I want a LFG tool similar to what VG has. I just don't care for the cross server stuff. But I also want large open dungeons so not sure how that would fit.

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First off NO INSTANCING. Shards (like VG) are fine. Then create the LFG tool to work within those constraints and I would be one happy camper.

Muligan_sl said:

It isn't about being warm and fuzzy, it's about LFG tools are hardly used even in games that it is even needed. So why waste development time "trying to get it right" when you could just focus on the core game and see if it is even needed. I still stand that a good game doesn't need a LFG tool. Sure, it's convenient but I would rather just talk it out, find people, and form my groups. I guess to me, it is just another one of those features that takes another layer from the game and players that would add more depth to the game.

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LFG are hardly used? Really? They are some of the most heralded and popular tools ever introduced into the modern MMO market.

You're also ignoring reality when it comes to leveling dungeons. Assume they are the best things since sliced bread and you love doing them. You put together a group minus a healer or a tank or whatever key role you need. What do you do? There is no InsertRoleHere in game in your level range. What do you do? Keep soloing? Sit in a town and shout? What happens when the other players you found get bored and log off or wander off?

Shit happens all the time. Do you shrug and say, "Maybe not tonight!". I guess that's fine if you don't mind sacrificing not doing content for the sake of your love of searching out people from a who-list.

I'd much rather cross server LFG, do a cool dungeon, and then log off to go to bed.

wow reached its peak several years before blizzard implemented those systems. these are tired arguments. then again, i'm not surprised when people on this board claim swtor saw a mass exodus because of its lack of "qol" features. yeah, people hate these games because they can't form a group in 30 seconds and not because of their sterile environments and lack of endgame content.

Grim1_sl said:

Pretty much this but take it a step further. I hate questing the way it is done now. Fill up your quest log then run around like a f'ing retard checking them off. In EQ1 I only did a few quests during my whole career. Some ubah gear quests and the epic weapon quest(s).

I loved the eqic weapon quest and it's storyline. But doing thousands of them is boring. Give me one huge overarching quest that takes me to max level, gives me a super cool weapon, kills the dragon and saves the world. A few side quests for awesome gear and thats it. All the rest are a waste of time. I only do them in mmo's because that is where the xp is now days.

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Modern questing is dumb; you'll never hear me say otherwise. I was referring specifically to the TOR implementation of voice acting for everything, not the implementation of questing.

EQ had shitloads of quests, but they were mostly retarded with terrible rewards and rarely made sense along with having trigger words that were -not- as easy to guess as other people know. Except turning in stuff for faction/Velious Armor quests/whatever that wasn't "bring me 10 bear asses for a bubble of xp!" type nonsense. Give me a class storyline/quest with UI based documentation and when an epic quest or whatever shows up, more ingame documentation. The rest? No thanks. Errands for guys in dire need of bear asses are not "quests." They are a hand in much like turning in orc belts or bone chips. Treat them as such~

Edit for Convo: You aren't the only mmo hipster in the thread~

Also, unless you artificially cap servers -far- below content saturation levels, you're going to run into the reason why instancing was created in the first place every time. Not enough content to go around when people log on. I've still never heard the coherent argument that doesn't involve the ridiculous "it destroys community!" stance for why instancing is bad. It gives equal access to content to anyone capable of dealing with it. It takes from nobody. It lets skill and ability and all sorts of Non-timezone related shit take precidence over time-zone related shit when it comes to content availability.

Rezz_sl said:

I don't want to, but the hardcore mmo hipsters love making things difficult in the name of "community" so I tend to post ideas that try and bridge the gap. WoW's tool updated so that you can set specific class preferences and not just "tank/dps/healer" would be my primary suggestion, but that invokes the game that rustles mad hipster jimmies. Never quite understood the mad hatred for QoL features in games by other people who played EQ, personally.

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Yeah but that compromise is silly. The only compromising factor is cross server or not and instant dungeon teleport or not. Now you can create more complicated systems to assist people in looking for a group if you really hate the idea of auto-lookup. You can create different UI elements that you can open where it lists people looking for a dungeon and creating a separate chat channel in the UI element (separate from your normal UI chat pane). You can create in-game social media-like systems as well. Create in-game facebook-like pages for dungeons so you can hop on and look for people interested in doing something similar.

I think anti-LFG people are saying is they hate the automated process and think that you should have to send tells to everyone and communicate directly with people. If that is the case you have to be willing to give up hefty portions of your gaming time to group organizing efforts. If people like that, then more power to them. A lot of people, including myself, prefer to cut that out and give me easy access to play the game.

Most of the time if I'm playing a PVE game I'm doing guild groups, but I like quick options if that is not available. I do all the manual group building stuff inside a guild chat versus public chat. I bet this is what a lot of people do as well.

Convo_sl said:

I already said I want a LFG tool similar to what VG has. I just don't care for the cross server stuff. But I also want large open dungeons so not sure how that would fit.

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See this is a different conversation to have. If you build a game with zero instancing, LFG tools can't really be automated. But with open world dungeons, you can begin creating completely different game systems that begin with Public Grouping in WAR and evolve into what GW2 does.

For example, you can show up at an open dungeon and find groups of people and join up with them. You don't need to ask to join a group, you can do what Rift does and allow you do join the Open Group. You can flag your own personal group and Public allowing people to right click on you and simply Join like you can in GW2's WVW. You can also flag it private if you have set group.

So now the solo player shows up and just begins adventuring with others. You will have to design the game like GW2 where you have personal loot and xp tables so you're not chasing to tag mobs.

There are a lot of different variations you can create depending on how cooperative you want public groups to be. In GW2 all buffs and heals hit everyone in a radius regardless of group or not.

This is the direction I would build a game if it were up to me. I'd probably get rid of instancing and move towards dynamic and scaling encounters and hotspots with the freedom of public and private groups.

Then I would add GW2's level scaling system on top of it.