EQ Never
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Ukerric
Bearded Ape
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Do it like EVE. Mostly-PVE areas (i.e. any PvP brings instant doom, so you really, really need a good reason to attempt non-consensual PvP there), going to full PvP areas.
Muligan
Trakanon Raider
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I've always thought the way you implement PvP into a PvE centric game is to create an open world zone and give the side with control bonuses that would be necessary to assist in a raid or a certain dungeon (maybe the bonus changes) or even it opens up certain markets or access to x amount of dungeons/raids. I love PvP in MMO's but honestly, I have never really seen it done well in games. I think EQ2 had it pretty good at one time but still it cause more problems and frustrations than anything. I think PvP provides unique challenges and a change of pace but i'm completely against instancing anything because it removes players/population from your server. I think you add PvP as an option but make it worth while to the point that it is advantageous to the PvE environment.
Convo
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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I'm cool with a pvp server. I think they should totally redesign the class system for a PvP server. That would make for 2 different experiences with the classes. But I also thought it would be a good idea for them to relaunch a PvP version a year or 2 down the line using 90% of the PVE version and just tweaking it. I thought it would be a good way to make additional money by catering to 2 niches without making a new game. Seems logical but apparently that would be too costly??
It would be cool if it had land deeds similar to DF that dropped in the world. A place where a player can build a house for storage and some bonuses. Allow players to sell/trade or maybe even rent some space in their house.
It would be cool if it had land deeds similar to DF that dropped in the world. A place where a player can build a house for storage and some bonuses. Allow players to sell/trade or maybe even rent some space in their house.
You will never balance classes with both PvP and PvE in an MMORPG. I enjoy PvP in MMORPGs but I know to have a "balanced" PvP experience I should be playing an FPS. EQ 1 PvP was great (up to a point, around GoD it started getting pretty wacky) despite me not being able to take someone out 1v1, eg against a necro unless I had a big jump on them. You accepted your limitations, moved on, got killed and gg'd, or called for back up. I play on PvP servers but classes should be made with PvE in mind first as that is the majority of the player base and only make minor tweaks to PvP code (eg, reducing 100% manaburn to 75%).
For this reason I am generally for strict class roles in MMORPGs, it gives you a sense of place in the world when you cannot be a superhero in every situation.
For this reason I am generally for strict class roles in MMORPGs, it gives you a sense of place in the world when you cannot be a superhero in every situation.
The problem is you have to cater to the PVP crowd these days, as they make up a huge portion of the MMORPG community. It's unfortunate, becasue I do enjoy PVP, but you can basically track down the downfall of MMO gameplay to the point that PVP became a massive hit with the playerbase, and when MMO gameplay started turning into cookie cutter shit fests. Balance is just a train wreck when it comes to PVP, because people are always going to complain.
Grim1
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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PvP content is a lot easier to create for sandbox situations though. And a good PvP system can extend the life of the game far longer than a new PvE expansion.
I hope EQN doesn't get too far from it's PvE roots, but having a robust PvP option is pretty important in todays market.
I hope EQN doesn't get too far from it's PvE roots, but having a robust PvP option is pretty important in todays market.
Setting balance aside as the main reason for not favoring pvp in an mmorpg, I think that it would be a huge mistake to dismiss it. Hell, the primary reason I played SWTOR as long as I did was because of pvp. Same goes for WoW and RIFT. As much as I really avoid console gaming, I think that the competitive pvp market that has spawned around consoles is too huge to ignore. Games like Planetside 2 could mark a shift from console back to PC, with franchises like Blizzard's Starcraft already somewhat revitalizing the PC gaming market. All that said, I don't know how it would be at all possible to balance a game with complex classes and game mechanics.
Pancreas
Vyemm Raider
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P should come before E
Another method to implement pvp and pve with the same rule sets is to simply balance pvp FIRST; then adjust monster hp, armor stats and behavior to player power.
Over simplified example: Instead of a player doing 1000 damage with a fire ball spell to some creature and then only 50% dmg to players.... just have the player do 500 damage with the fireball and reduce creature hit points to 50% of what they were originally.
As for crowd control mechanics. Give everything a natural chance to resist these effects based on stats; constitution or stamina for stuns, intelligence for mezzes, agility for snares, strength for cripples ect. But give players some additional mechanic to help break free. Like some input coordination thing, you have to hit the following keys as they pop up to break free faster. Don't give this mechanic to monsters.
Balancing pvp first, and making combat work there BEFORE balancing for pve makes everything much smoother.
Personal Preferences and Theory Crafting Time
Another method to implement pvp and pve with the same rule sets is to simply balance pvp FIRST; then adjust monster hp, armor stats and behavior to player power.
Over simplified example: Instead of a player doing 1000 damage with a fire ball spell to some creature and then only 50% dmg to players.... just have the player do 500 damage with the fireball and reduce creature hit points to 50% of what they were originally.
As for crowd control mechanics. Give everything a natural chance to resist these effects based on stats; constitution or stamina for stuns, intelligence for mezzes, agility for snares, strength for cripples ect. But give players some additional mechanic to help break free. Like some input coordination thing, you have to hit the following keys as they pop up to break free faster. Don't give this mechanic to monsters.
Balancing pvp first, and making combat work there BEFORE balancing for pve makes everything much smoother.
Personal Preferences and Theory Crafting Time
I would like to see a DPS only system. You can have a 100 different ways of doing damage and moving around on the battlefield and blocking damage but straight healing is gone, and tanking is done entirely through positioning and creating barriers between enemies and targets. The barrier could be a summoned wall, quicksand, a wall of shields, traps, a choke point or the swing radius of someone's weapon.
You could intercept, tackle, knockdown, bash, stun, snare, root, freeze, block, dodge, kill, and otherwise impede enemies from reaching their goal. All those mechanics combined fill the role of the tank. Just sitting there begging to get hit, that will get anyone killed.
I also would like to see a system where everyone effectively has 1 hp. A character has a single resource pool, stamina. It's amount and rate of recharge depend on the constitution or just stamina stat. Every swing, dash, roll, jump and combat action drains stamina. As more stamina is used within a short period of time, the rate of recovery begins to slow down. Until it is just barely trickling back in. At this point the character is exhausted and needs to not take any strenuous activity for short a while (Think Old EQ mana regen, just sit and take a break).If a character loses all of their stamina, they lose consciousness. At that point they are vulnerable to being attacked and killed.
Skill levels and stats will determine the rate at which stamina is consumed. Wielding a heavy sword will drain a lot of stamina from a weak character, but not so much from one with high strength. Being proficient with two handed swords will also reduce stamina drain per swing.
Magic will also consume stamina, except instead of strength, intelligence will be used to determine how much a spell consumes. Mastery of spell levels/schools will greatly effect this rate. At first spells will have to be channeled. Eventually, as skill levels rise, spells will be able to be cast instantly. While a spell is being channeled it is burning down a players stamina. If a player does not have enough stamina or the burn rate is too great, they will lose consciousness before the spell is cast. The higher the level spell the longer the initial channel time and the higher the burn rate.
So a novice mage could in fact attempt to cast a high level spell (if they got their hands on the spell scroll), but the cast time will be very long and the stamina burn rate will be very high. However, multiple casters could link together so that the stamina burn is distributed among the group of them and greatly lessens the burden on any one player. Some extreme level spells would pretty much only be able to be cast this way.
Once a mage has thoroughly mastered a certain spell or school or level or spells (however they wind up getting categorized) The channel time will become instant for that spell and will simply burn an amount of stamina as if it were a sword swing or other action.
Combat damage wont really exist with everyone effectively having 1hp. Instead combat will revolve heavily on status ailments. When someone gets hit by a weapon or a spell, they will suffer a status ailment appropriate for that type of damage. A slashing weapon would cause a laceration with bleed damage (stamina drain over time), A blunt weapon could cause a broken bone (limb crippled and unusable as well as a large single hit to stamina) a fire spell could cause a burn, (reduction in maximum stamina and possible crippling)
Also the location of the attack could have it's own effects. A blow to the head could cause blindness (everything goes black except for UI elements), a concussion (ability to doge and to hit reduced), a stun (a short freeze to player actions).
A hit to the chest might knock the wind out of someone (reduced stamina regen for a while), collapse a lung (maximum stamina reduction and large reduction to regen), crack a rib (reduced regen and small penalties to hit and dodge rates.)
A hit to the legs could result in a knockdown, reduced movement speed, sliced artery (Huge stamina drain).
All hits will result in some ailment ranging from minor bruising all the way up to decapitation. The severity of a hit is determined by how well armored the target is, and how skillful and strong the attack was. Essentially the ailments would be listed on a table. A character with a high weapon skill, and a sharp, heavy, strong or otherwise effective weapon, and a high determining statistic such as strength or int will put their hits high on this table. The targets defensive stats such as armor, stamina, dodge rates, chance to deflect or parry will try to reduce this value.
If any player is struck in the head or chest while unconscious they are killed instantly.
All healing and recovery would be done strictly out of combat. The in-combat status can fade if a character has not attacked or been attacked for a period of time. Picking up and carrying unconscious players would be possible with their consent. If a group could maintain a front line, they could cycle players in and out as they became injured during a lengthy fight or siege. Healing and injury recovery would take a while, almost like rez sickness. Dying would always cause a lengthy rez sickness ailment that lasts longer than any recovery time.
However planning a triage center would not be very effective for most sized groups. There wouldn't be enough people fighting to effectively finish the encounter. Only Large battles involving armies would really benefit from this tactic.
That's all for now.
You could intercept, tackle, knockdown, bash, stun, snare, root, freeze, block, dodge, kill, and otherwise impede enemies from reaching their goal. All those mechanics combined fill the role of the tank. Just sitting there begging to get hit, that will get anyone killed.
I also would like to see a system where everyone effectively has 1 hp. A character has a single resource pool, stamina. It's amount and rate of recharge depend on the constitution or just stamina stat. Every swing, dash, roll, jump and combat action drains stamina. As more stamina is used within a short period of time, the rate of recovery begins to slow down. Until it is just barely trickling back in. At this point the character is exhausted and needs to not take any strenuous activity for short a while (Think Old EQ mana regen, just sit and take a break).If a character loses all of their stamina, they lose consciousness. At that point they are vulnerable to being attacked and killed.
Skill levels and stats will determine the rate at which stamina is consumed. Wielding a heavy sword will drain a lot of stamina from a weak character, but not so much from one with high strength. Being proficient with two handed swords will also reduce stamina drain per swing.
Magic will also consume stamina, except instead of strength, intelligence will be used to determine how much a spell consumes. Mastery of spell levels/schools will greatly effect this rate. At first spells will have to be channeled. Eventually, as skill levels rise, spells will be able to be cast instantly. While a spell is being channeled it is burning down a players stamina. If a player does not have enough stamina or the burn rate is too great, they will lose consciousness before the spell is cast. The higher the level spell the longer the initial channel time and the higher the burn rate.
So a novice mage could in fact attempt to cast a high level spell (if they got their hands on the spell scroll), but the cast time will be very long and the stamina burn rate will be very high. However, multiple casters could link together so that the stamina burn is distributed among the group of them and greatly lessens the burden on any one player. Some extreme level spells would pretty much only be able to be cast this way.
Once a mage has thoroughly mastered a certain spell or school or level or spells (however they wind up getting categorized) The channel time will become instant for that spell and will simply burn an amount of stamina as if it were a sword swing or other action.
Combat damage wont really exist with everyone effectively having 1hp. Instead combat will revolve heavily on status ailments. When someone gets hit by a weapon or a spell, they will suffer a status ailment appropriate for that type of damage. A slashing weapon would cause a laceration with bleed damage (stamina drain over time), A blunt weapon could cause a broken bone (limb crippled and unusable as well as a large single hit to stamina) a fire spell could cause a burn, (reduction in maximum stamina and possible crippling)
Also the location of the attack could have it's own effects. A blow to the head could cause blindness (everything goes black except for UI elements), a concussion (ability to doge and to hit reduced), a stun (a short freeze to player actions).
A hit to the chest might knock the wind out of someone (reduced stamina regen for a while), collapse a lung (maximum stamina reduction and large reduction to regen), crack a rib (reduced regen and small penalties to hit and dodge rates.)
A hit to the legs could result in a knockdown, reduced movement speed, sliced artery (Huge stamina drain).
All hits will result in some ailment ranging from minor bruising all the way up to decapitation. The severity of a hit is determined by how well armored the target is, and how skillful and strong the attack was. Essentially the ailments would be listed on a table. A character with a high weapon skill, and a sharp, heavy, strong or otherwise effective weapon, and a high determining statistic such as strength or int will put their hits high on this table. The targets defensive stats such as armor, stamina, dodge rates, chance to deflect or parry will try to reduce this value.
If any player is struck in the head or chest while unconscious they are killed instantly.
All healing and recovery would be done strictly out of combat. The in-combat status can fade if a character has not attacked or been attacked for a period of time. Picking up and carrying unconscious players would be possible with their consent. If a group could maintain a front line, they could cycle players in and out as they became injured during a lengthy fight or siege. Healing and injury recovery would take a while, almost like rez sickness. Dying would always cause a lengthy rez sickness ailment that lasts longer than any recovery time.
However planning a triage center would not be very effective for most sized groups. There wouldn't be enough people fighting to effectively finish the encounter. Only Large battles involving armies would really benefit from this tactic.
That's all for now.
Cinge
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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And if they determine later that 500 dmg is too strong in pvp and nerf it? Now they would have to redo all the mob/pve stuff to compensate.
Much easier giving 2 separate effects to abilities/spells and letting you tinker/change one without effecting the other.
Quineloe
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
- 6,978
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It's not just damage Pancreas, it's mostly control spells. Damage is actually a pretty minor issue. Roots, snares, mezzes and all that stuff lasted forever in EQ and could be repeated indefinitely.
Something like that done to a player is out of the question. So you have to completely gimp the spells for PVP, or not have any spells like that in the game to begin with (WoW did both, and as a result the classes were pretty bland after a few years of "balancing)
Something like that done to a player is out of the question. So you have to completely gimp the spells for PVP, or not have any spells like that in the game to begin with (WoW did both, and as a result the classes were pretty bland after a few years of "balancing)
where did you get this from? Any numbers?
a lot of eq's spells had random durations. they could last anywhere from 5 seconds to 1 minute
Quineloe
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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Convo
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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Honestly.. With all the good shooters pvp in a fantasy setting is feeling a bit blah. I'd rather sight in and shoot someone than have some retard running around me in a circle hitting me with a sword... I would rather the dev time be spent on AI.
Another thing I was thinking about and saw it mentioned on here is allowing players to control some of the boss mobs. I forgot the posts and if another game has already tried it? But it would be cool if players on a different server could Q to play a boss. Maybe make them pass a few in game test before they get to actually try with a real group.
Another thing I was thinking about and saw it mentioned on here is allowing players to control some of the boss mobs. I forgot the posts and if another game has already tried it? But it would be cool if players on a different server could Q to play a boss. Maybe make them pass a few in game test before they get to actually try with a real group.
This makes no sense. 90% of players are PVE, yet devs should focus the majority of the structure on a game only 10% of the population plays?
Pancreas
Vyemm Raider
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See that's what I don't get. How these games get produced WITH major balance issues shipped at release. WTF are they doing that's so important that the core mechanics of the game are untested and not quite cooked. It's like the online delivery method has allowed all of these companies to simply become Idea guys and not actual developers. Oh we can just tune that after it releases, no biggie.
Any other product that decided to push quality assurance onto it's customers would probably get sued at some point. I understand these are games and should not be taken seriously, but they are still made by companies and they are still a product. Why this industry has such abysmally shitty standards and no respect for this process is beyond me.
If a company can't play test their own game before releasing it and is immune to tester feedback, then sure, make two completely different combat systems to deal with the inevitable discrepancies and imbalances that are going to occur. I just really don't think it's necessary if the developers did their homework.
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Your right then, citation needed. The percentage of PVP players has increased? I wasn't aware of that.
Pancreas
Vyemm Raider
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- 3,818
90% of players are PvE because most PvP that gets implemented is shitty. Developers should in fact be focusing MORE on making good pvp mechanics. Like it was said, a decent PvP system provides way more content than any PvE expansion could hope to accomplish.