EQ Never

The issue I have with the modern themepark games is that there is no sense of adventure anymore. Quest hook to area a. Talk with NPC A. Gives quest to talk to NPC B,C,D. They send you to Area A.1, A.2, A.3 to complete 3 quests for each. Return. Follow up quest to kill Lt boss at each sub area. Return. Quest to kill Boss of the three sub areas. Teaser quest to Area B.

We are led by the nose in the Wow games now. What I want to see is guild based faction earning. Guilds get their own faction gains and negs, towards other guilds. Guilds get their own faction ratings vrs NPC factions that are actually at odd with each other. PVE sides to join that lead to PVP clashes. If you don't wish to show your colors you are left out of the pvp flags, but the guild knows who is not representing. I want to see Rift Style Zone invasions from npc and guild alliances. NPC Warbands patrolling roads to support the guild held keep that 3 days later is controlled by the NPC prince opposing Faction and has another guild patrolling for improved faction with the Prince Faction. I would like to see the bear ass quests built in as achievables with quest reward bonuses, and faction negatives from the bearhuggers united guild alliance. I want big multi guild alliance factions created that then get infiltrated and pillaged by a member guild that is then KOS to all the other guilds that just got screwed over. If you act as a member guild under an alliance I want to have your guild getting a cut of the rewards and penalties from the actions of the alliance.

Of course through all of this you have a chance to take off with that hot High elf that is in the Enemy alliance and adventure together with Wizard hat and staff equipped. Just do not let it get back to the Alliance command. Unless of course you are using her to spy. Or she is using you.

And combat has to be fluid like WoW, but with movement during combat like a cross of Tera and GW2. Aion gliding and Mid air combat for mounts (Mounts larger slower moving but longer flight times) and players with advanced enough gear or spells or somesuch. With Npc's who can net you, paralyze you, or whatever to get ground based encounters working as well.

Ahh well. I am sure I will never see a mash up like it. And I didn't articulate it well, but I wish that devs could dream again and actually make games with adventure again.

Draegan_sl said:

Now that post was pretentious. Splitting pulls is emergent? Oh man.

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Actually he is correct, regardless if it was intended or not (Itzena), and I fail to see the pretentiousness. The current crop of MMORPGs are meticulously scripted and pigeonholed by developers to make it more user friendly for the masses (and easier for the devs?). Nothing wrong with that, to each their ownbutthis is what the poster was alluding to: by definition, when encounters are rigidly made you take away uncertainty and meaningful consequences (ie WoW and its ilk) you lose the "emergence" of gameplay. Yes EQ was easy once you understood the mechanics, and breaking a group of spawns wasn't exactly rocket science but it left a hell of lot more room for ingenuity and challenge based on group makeup, level disparity etc - compared to the faceroll dungeons and the informatics that create boss fights today. Call it lazy developing, serendipity, it really doesn't mattera as it was a lot more fun than the on rails experience we have today.

I can understand the need and desire to make games more upfront friendly and more forgiving. What drives me bonkers is that I have yet to see the "forward thinking" contingent in this thread acknowledge the above, and that just as in real life you need depth, consequence, and hardship to make a memorable and meaningful gaming experience. I understand that its not for everyone, and it won't be able to bleed money from casual Tommy-likes glittered pony familiars, but its more than rose tinted glasses that made retro EQ what it was. EQ had style bros.

Except, all that gameplay stuff that emerged in EQ? Exists in just about every game since then. Yeah lots of stuff came out of the first major 3d mmorpg, because the developers had no f'n idea what they were doing in most cases. Pulling and breaking spawns? Is about using CC right and killing shit in the right order. Which you still do in every game since then. FD is the single concept that tears that up to a degree, and the only reason it does is because of the super simplistic mechanics that were involved in EQ. Nobody is saying that lots of neat shit didn't come from EQ. Rather, the non-mmo hipsters are saying that taking a snapshot of a genre in its absolute infancy and claiming it hasn't moved forward in over a decade isn't really looking at the whole picture. All sorts of shit in modern games takes patience and skill to overcome hardship and adversity. It just doesn't involve fighting the UI or the ability of other players to physically play the game at all hours of the day in order to do so in most cases.

Like really, you can't just pop out a game and say "gameplay, EMERGE!" by not thinking your decisions through. In its infancy, the mmorpg was a new animal and so shit people didn't expect happened. And by people, I mean developers. They know what happens now, and they know what abilities do. It isn't sterile; it's refined. And the people who play it understand the basic mechanics far better than they did during the early years of EQ, so it isn't that developers are coddling players, it is that players simply understand the stuff that they didn't during the early days on a basic level across the board.

I think it's kind of fair to blame the bleeding edge guilds for that jello. I mean, blizzard hired two very prominent guild leaders who were in charge of coming up with a lot of the strategy involved in exploiting the mechanics in EQ. Is it fair to assume they said "Hey you! Developer! Don't let the players make this shit as easy to exploit as we did in EQ" and it just snowballed from there?

People tend to blame game companies and developers for what's become of the genre but I feel as though the brunt of it should be placed on the players themselves. If we didn't exploit mechanics to our advantage developers wouldn't constantly be trying to give us encounters that are "rigid". They wouldn't be saying "Well you assholes decided to pull Dain out of his room so you could fight him alone, that's not what we wanted, he's way too easy that way, so now we're going to come up with mechanics that don't let you fuck with our design philosophy"

1. morons like rezz and itzena equate polish and convenience with good game design. these are the same guys who think eq and wow had the same social atmosphere despite having fundamentally different designs. you can't reason with these people because they just don't get it.

2. why are exploits and bugs being discussed? they added to eq's charm but weren't integral parts of the game unless you think feign death pulling made a world of difference.

3. wow raids were more choreographed because you had 40 people as opposed to 70

I just find fault with any statement that says EQ was brilliantly designed. The majority of the content and content style was all based on DIKU muds. The majority of the freedom people love to claim EQ had (trains, pulling, splitting, FD, and whatever) were all mistakes and bugs that the developers couldn't fix or said fuck, let them do it and call it a feature.

The only truly inventive thing that EQ did was successfully create the the engine, code and infrastructure for an online 3D world when that never existed. That's the exciting amazing part. That and fostering a game that was subscription based to very high levels of success. That's nothing to laugh at either, what they did was take a neckbeard game genre (telnetting into MUDs) and force it into the direction of mainstream gaming. That is where they are pioneers.

Draegan_sl said:

The only truly inventive thing that EQ did was successfully create the the engine, code and infrastructure for an online 3D world when that never existed. That's the exciting amazing part. That and fostering a game that was subscription based to very high levels of success. That's nothing to laugh at either, what they did was take a neckbeard game genre (telnetting into MUDs) and force it into the direction of mainstream gaming. That is where they are pioneers.

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Your paragraphs really do not give justice to what EQ accomplished. They also sort of contradict each other. EQ blew away most of us who were long time gamers, as well as young new gamers. It was a huge leap forward in graphics, gameplay, and in the world. It's really like comparing silent movies to ones with sound. Purists might say there's not a big deal there, but c'mon.

The problem is no fantasy MMO game has really innovated or made a similar forward progression leap since then. WOW re-engineered the genre for the console generation and kiddies, but it was not 'new' just better. Most other MMOs have done a few parlor tricks, or small additions but not taken the next step. WOW also benefited from being the first mainstream MMO in the broadband era.

What irks me is we have the exact same design document, albeit with prettier graphics and a few twists, circa EQ days. If 989 Studios could make this sort of impact, hopefully another small company will be able to do the same someday and we won't just keep getting fantasy MMO clones.

Draegan_sl said:

I just find fault with any statement that says EQ was brilliantly designed. The majority of the content and content style was all based on DIKU muds. The majority of the freedom people love to claim EQ had (trains, pulling, splitting, FD, and whatever) were all mistakes and bugs that the developers couldn't fix or said fuck, let them do it and call it a feature.

The only truly inventive thing that EQ did was successfully create the the engine, code and infrastructure for an online 3D world when that never existed. That's the exciting amazing part. That and fostering a game that was subscription based to very high levels of success. That's nothing to laugh at either, what they did was take a neckbeard game genre (telnetting into MUDs) and force it into the direction of mainstream gaming. That is where they are pioneers.

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WoW is "brilliantly designed" and yet it sucks, imo. Many of EQ's best features were accidents and yet EQ classic was a better game, imo. Many scientific advancements were accidents.

It really doesn't matter in the end if a game is brilliantly designed or not, only if the game is fun. And I would argue that when you over design a game like WoW does then you ruin everything that makes a game fun. Accidents happen and that adds more charm than any daily or instanced hoop jumping dungeon grind.

Grim1_sl said:

WoW is "brilliantly designed" and yet it sucks, imo. Many of EQ's best features were accidents and yet EQ classic was a better game, imo. Many scientific advancements were accidents.

It really doesn't matter in the end if a game is brilliantly designed or not, only if the game is fun. And I would argue that when you over design a game like WoW does then you ruin everything that makes a game fun. Accidents happen and that adds more charm than any daily or instanced hoop jumping dungeon grind.

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You really don't want to start a discussion where we discuss accidently discovering gravity vs. EQ accidently allowing groups of mobs to split up because of Feign Death do we? Absurd comparison. WOW sucking and EQ being better is completely subjective and has nothing to do with what I wrote.

Soygen_sl said:

Trains(ie: mobs having social aggro) were a bug or mistake? FD pulling/splitting was clearly not what they intended the skill to be used for, but I'm pretty sure the way mobs aggro'd was intentional. Leashing sucks.

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Yeah true. I mispoke, I probably meant something else. MUDs were doing that for years. Need more coffee.

mkopec_sl said:

^^
This, also leashing and having mobs aggro linked is the gayest thing these games ever did.

No one is saying EQ was brilliantly designed, well at least Im not. There was a lot of flaws in EQs design which were rectified when WoW came out. But at the same time at the the expense of making the game feel less alive, restricting people more, and like I said, basically setting game play on rails.

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Well here's something I was gonna post the other day, but I forgot. If you take WOW pre-cata, remove most quests and leave the more interesting or involved quests (Like Onyxia key chain, dungeon exploration quests or legenary/epic quest lines or whatever) but take away the !'s and ?'s from those. Then remove all the instancing so everything is open world. Maybe remove the AH and all the UI addons. What is the difference between WOW and EQ other than solo-ability and exp curve?

Draegan_sl said:

You really don't want to start a discussion where we discuss accidently discovering gravity vs. EQ accidently allowing groups of mobs to split up because of Feign Death do we? Absurd comparison. WOW sucking and EQ being better is completely subjective and has nothing to do with what I wrote.

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The point is that you bringing up "Brilliant design" has very little to do with what makes a game fun, when accidents have just as much or more to do with it.. And obviously I said EQ was a better game "in my opinion".

Again.. "brilliant design" doesn't matter, only if the game is fun. You are trying to belittle what EQ accomplished because much of it's charm was accidental. Well that is true in most artistic endeavors. The best movies, music and even games are great because of the accidental confluence of many sources that just happen to jell into the right mix.

EQ's code and infrastructure didn't make the game fun.

Gecko_sl said:

Your paragraphs really do not give justice to what EQ accomplished. They also sort of contradict each other. EQ blew away most of us who were long time gamers, as well as young new gamers. It was a huge leap forward in graphics, gameplay, and in the world. It's really like comparing silent movies to ones with sound. Purists might say there's not a big deal there, but c'mon.

The problem is no fantasy MMO game has really innovated or made a similar forward progression leap since then. WOW re-engineered the genre for the console generation and kiddies, but it was not 'new' just better. Most other MMOs have done a few parlor tricks, or small additions but not taken the next step. WOW also benefited from being the first mainstream MMO in the broadband era.

What irks me is we have the exact same design document, albeit with prettier graphics and a few twists, circa EQ days. If 989 Studios could make this sort of impact, hopefully another small company will be able to do the same someday and we won't just keep getting fantasy MMO clones.

Click to expand...

I think you're giving them too much credit is some aspects. I was an online gaming geek back in the 90s (I'm 32). I played Bards Tale as a kid. Then in '92 I found Shadows of Yserbius which had the same graphics Bards Tale but online! It was pretty cool but charged hourly and was super expensive. Then I played MUDs for years.

When EQ came out I was blown away by an awesome 3D world. But the game, to me, wasn't innovated from a gameplay point of view. The actual gameplay was identical except that you had to move within a 3d space. Combat, Healing, Casting, Skills, Classes, Tanking, CC, Splitting, Trains, Zones, Camping, Player Auctions were exactly the same as MUDs.

I would disagree with innovation and progress within MMORPGs. There has been so many innovations within the genre since '98 that developers of yesterday's game would be amazed with what you could do now.

Grim1_sl said:

The point is that you bringing up "Brilliant design" has very little to do with what makes a game fun, when accidents have just as much or more to do with it.. And obviously I said EQ was a better game "in my opinion".

Again.. "brilliant design" doesn't matter, only if the game is fun. You are trying to belittle what EQ accomplished because much of it's charm was accidental. Well that is true in most artistic endeavors. The best movies, music and even games are great because of the accidental confluence of many sources that just happen to jell into the right mix.

EQ's code and infrastructure didn't make the game fun.

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I don't remember if you ever mentioned it before, but did you play MUDs. If you did, did you play any of the bigger ones? The reason I ask, and I'm reiterating this, is because a lot of the charm and the accomplishments you are giving to EQ were already put into games prior to EQ.

It's the same dumb arguement EQ fans have with WOW fans. WOW tards ignore games that became before and EQ tards like to play the hipster. Then you have tards like me who go, fuck you MUDS in 1996! There is probably some D&D neckbeard waiting to pounce on me from 1978.

EQ did something great, which was bring the text based model that was SojournMUD to a 3D world and showed that these games can make money with subscriptions. Which allowed for other games to come along and be made. EQ birthed a gaming genre because they proved you could make moneyhats with it.

Draegan_sl said:

I think you're giving them too much credit is some aspects. I was an online gaming geek back in the 90s (I'm 32). I played Bards Tale as a kid. Then in '92 I found Shadows of Yserbius which had the same graphics Bards Tale but online! It was pretty cool but charged hourly and was super expensive. Then I played MUDs for years.

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I'm a good 10 years older than you. I was on Doors and BBS' in the early 80s. I actually wrote a Phaze MUD in the 80s when I was in high school. I was on TSN also and spent a ton on Yserbius, as well. If you played Yserbius, NWN, The Realm, and older MUDs then you know what a huge leap EQ was back then in just about every way.

When EQ came out I was blown away by an awesome 3D world. But the game, to me, wasn't innovated from a gameplay point of view. The actual gameplay was identical except that you had to move within a 3d space. Combat, Healing, Casting, Skills, Classes, Tanking, CC, Splitting, Trains, Zones, Camping, Player Auctions were exactly the same as MUDs.

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I can't disagree more. Yes, it was AD&D derivative a la MUDS, but I'd go back to my silent movie to movies with sound analogy.It was just a huge leap forward, especially for those of who grew up with the Keep on the Borderlands modules, Wizardry, and dial up modems.

I would disagree with innovation and progress within MMORPGs. There has been so many innovations within the genre since '98 that developers of yesterday's game would be amazed with what you could do now.

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Engineering improvements are not innovation. The fact we have had massive improvements in gas turbine engines does not change the fact our cars are still using that exact same technology.

EQ came out 15 years ago. I think people who grew up with 3D graphics and the massive innovations in consoles don't really appreciate the big difference the Voodoo 3D card and 3D graphics have over the earlier 386 and 286 based games many of us grew up with.

What irks me is we still don't have much design differences between the AD&D mindset of levels of EQ and today. There has been little innovation on that front, and mainly just added shininess and streamlining.

Are MUDs available to play anymore? I never personally played one because I didn't even have a pc until.. hmm.. 1999. I was at my best friend's house and he showed me EverQuest. He was just running from Kelethin to BB to kill the dwarves. It was just so awesome, there was this huge open world at the tips of his fingers. I had to get in on it but my family was pretty damn poor. I ended up saving my own money to buy his old computer and convinced my mom that I would pay her the money monthly to foot the bill. She looked at it as a good exercise in responsibility. Little did she know it would consume my life heh.

Anyhow, I had another friend before I got into all this who would play some kind of text based rpg with a few of his rl friends. It was on AOL, using their chat rooms, but it had a roll system with sided die. I'm not sure how it worked because I was completely ignorant at the time so the information didn't stick with me, but it was (and still is) intriguing to me.

-Alluvia - Test-