EQ Never

Utnayan

I Love Utnayan he’s awesome
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Trains(ie: mobs having social aggro) were a bug or mistake? FD pulling/splitting was clearly not what they intended the skill to be used for, but I'm pretty sure the way mobs aggro'd was intentional. Leashing sucks.
Actually it wasn't. They couldn't figure out how to mem wipe the mobs aside from manual wipes done by DEV/GM's. So zoning was the only way it cleared. Once they saw how the accidental design hit the world, they left it in. Obviously this happened for a lot of things. Multiquesting, split pulls, pulls through geography/warping, etc. It's really funny how the mistakes of EQ which were left in, had a stroke of luck with the game itself and made it's charm.

It also left player freedom to find these things wide open, and in turn, the gameplay emerged from a lot of unintended design fuck ups.
 

Draegan_sl

2 Minutes Hate
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3
I can't disagree more. Yes, it was AD&D derivative a la MUDS, but I'd go back to my silent movie to movies with sound analogy.It was just a huge leap forward, especially for those of who grew up with the Keep on the Borderlands modules, Wizardry, and dial up modems.
3D graphics was a huge leap, don't get me wrong. But as far as gameplay, how was EQ better than some MUDs in the terms I listed? It was an evolutionary leap when it came to movement and mob placement, sure. But the majority of it was almost the same. I remember transitioning between SojournMUD and EQ and felt like I had already played the game and I already knew what to do in the game. There was no mystery for me other than exploring a new world.
 

Vonador_sl

shitlord
44
0
3D graphics was a huge leap, don't get me wrong. But as far as gameplay, how was EQ better than some MUDs in the terms I listed? It was an evolutionary leap when it came to movement and mob placement, sure. But the majority of it was almost the same. I remember transitioning between SojournMUD and EQ and felt like I had already played the game and I already knew what to do in the game. There was no mystery for me other than exploring a new world.
I think you're treating SojournMUD almost exactly like the EverQuest fanboys in here are treating that original installment - and you're tearing a lot of them apart for it.

Look, SojournMUD was a fun little experience if you had the patience (and the tolerance) to work strictly with text-based formats. The number of people who do have those qualities, not to mention the determination, are a sub-sub-niche though. It's like Zork; you go back and play that today, after ten minutes you're thinking to yourself, 'What the fuck am I doing? I could actuallyinteractwith this shit in a graphical interface!' And you drop it, unlikely to even consider picking it up for about fifteen years.

That's what UO essentially was at the time; an online, graphical replacement to Zork, whereas EQ was simply a graphical replacement to SojournMUD. The difference is,that'swhat made it accessible;that'swhat made it worth playing for the (pseudo) masses. Gone were the days of having to read and comprehend vivid descriptors; now, you could simply look around and see what was happening in the world. That'severythingin creating an immersive role-playing experience; once you have the ability to show people the world that's been created for them to explore, you're more than just a game. And EverQuest was the first to do that in a 3-D setting.*

*I have no idea what the fuck any of this has to do with EQN, but I think it's safe to say we could use some news soon
 

^@ViViD_sl

shitlord
14
0
I think you're treating SojournMUD almost exactly like the EverQuest fanboys in here are treating that original installment - and you're tearing a lot of them apart for it.

Look, SojournMUD was a fun little experience if you had the patience (and the tolerance) to work strictly with text-based formats. The number of people who do have those qualities, not to mention the determination, are a sub-sub-niche though. It's like Zork; you go back and play that today, after ten minutes you're thinking to yourself, 'What the fuck am I doing? I could actuallyinteractwith this shit in a graphical interface!' And you drop it, unlikely to even consider picking it up for about fifteen years.

That's what UO essentially was at the time; an online, graphical replacement to Zork, whereas EQ was simply a graphical replacement to SojournMUD. The difference is,that'swhat made it accessible;that'swhat made it worth playing for the (pseudo) masses. Gone were the days of having to read and comprehend vivid descriptors; now, you could simply look around and see what was happening in the world. That'severythingin creating an immersive role-playing experience; once you have the ability to show people the world that's been created for them to explore, you're more than just a game. And EverQuest was the first to do that in a 3-D setting.*

*I have no idea what the fuck any of this has to do with EQN, but I think it's safe to say we could use some news soon
I say go back to Leisure Suit Larry Land of the Lounge Lizards was my first 3D RPG.
 

Draegan_sl

2 Minutes Hate
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I think you're treating SojournMUD almost exactly like the EverQuest fanboys in here are treating that original installment - and you're tearing a lot of them apart for it.
Exactly! Which is why I find it amusing when EQ people do that to WOW people. I do the same retarded shit but just one incpetion layer lower. To the rest of your point, I agree and that's a big thing that I lay at EQ's feet. They brought that genre of that style of gameplay to the forefront. They showed it makes money and has allowed more games to be made. That's why EQ deserves a lot of praise.
 

Vonador_sl

shitlord
44
0
Exactly! Which is why I find it amusing when EQ people do that to WOW people. I do the same retarded shit but just one incpetion layer lower. To the rest of your point, I agree and that's a big thing that I lay at EQ's feet. They brought that genre of that style of gameplay to the forefront. They showed it makes money and has allowed more games to be made. That's why EQ deserves a lot of praise.
Fair enough; point well taken. I can only speak for myself, but I don't really hate World of Warcraft for the game it was (vanilla WoW was a top-3 MMO all-timer pretty easily); I hate it for the game it slowly mutated into. That's another story for another time, though.
 

Grim1

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
4,864
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Fair enough; point well taken. I can only speak for myself, but I don't really hate World of Warcraft for the game it was (vanilla WoW was a top-3 MMO all-timer pretty easily); I hate it for the game it slowly mutated into. That's another story for another time, though.
The main difference between EQ classic and WoW classic for me was the lack of danger in WoW. Sure WoW had the ui thing figured out and questing was easier but in every other way WoW seemed like an exact clone of EQ to me, except there was no danger, no excitement and no fun in WoW.

And that is why I lasted only a couple months in WoW and every other mmo like it. Without that sense of danger, I don't feel a sense of accomplishment when I win, so boredom sets in.

What EQ turned into isn't the EQ I enjoyed. What WoW turned into doesn't matter to me, since it's base game is boring without the danger.
 

Khane

Got something right about marriage
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The main difference between EQ classic and WoW classic for me was the lack of danger in WoW. Sure WoW had the ui thing figured out and questing was easier but in every other way WoW seemed like an exact clone of EQ to me, except there was no danger, no excitement and no fun in WoW.

And that is why I lasted only a couple months in WoW and every other mmo like it. Without that sense of danger, I don't feel a sense of accomplishment when I win, so boredom sets in.

What EQ turned into isn't the EQ I enjoyed. What WoW turned into doesn't matter to me, since it's base game is boring without the danger.
It would be nice if a company had the resources to create a game that had both the danger you seek (zones with content tuned for groups and only groups, not solo players) and solo friendly content. And I mean overland zones, not dungeons. Dungeons should always be tuned for groups. The danger in EQ came from 2 things. 1) Everything was essentially tuned for a group, there was no solo content and 2) travelling required you to traverse zones that were much higher level than you while on the way up to max level with no way to bypass (fly over) that content harm free.

Of course, it can be argued there is no point to including both types of content because inevitably once people figure out which is more efficient the less efficient zones are empty and were a waste of resources to create.

By the way to everyone complaining that leashing is stupid, it isn't stupid. It makes perfect sense. There is a problem with the way it's implemented though.

Mobs you aggro that you move faster than shouldn't chase you forever. They should chase you until they 1) can't see you anymore... unless they have a tracking skill 2) until they get tired and realize they can't catch you (i.e. I've had aggro on PlayerX for 50 seconds but have not been able to perform any action).

If you aren't outrunning the mob and it's beating on you the entire time it shouldn't just decide after 30 yards that it's bored and leave you alone. That's dumb. If it can hit or cast on you it should continue to chase you until you actually get away (find a town for instance) or you die.
 

Deisun_sl

shitlord
118
0
No-leashing in Everquest actually helped create another layer of community and social aspect of the game. You remembered the douchebags that trained you, you were able to inflict harm on other groups if they screwed with yours, you respected those 2 guys that helped your group de-rail a train, you felt camaraderie with that guy that would pull for his group and accidentally get more than he could handle and he would stop by your group to let you peel one off without even needing to say anything. I actually MISS these kinds of interactions...something which is now dead and gone with instances. Instancing needs to go away, loot needs to mean much more, bind on pickup needs to go away. Items should feel like winning the lottery. They need interesting effects, not just +primary stats. Bind on pickup - go away. Same with medallions to turn in for loot - go the fuck away. Think flowing black silk sash. Raid size limits - go away.... Anyway I'm off track here.

You guys are right, it's funny just how "right" Everquest was by accident.

Back to the no leashing thing - its such a small thing but when you add all the layers up its a mountain. All those things helped strengthen the sense of community in the game which is something Everquest did WAY better than any MMO to date.
 

Gecko_sl

shitlord
1,482
0
3D graphics was a huge leap, don't get me wrong. But as far as gameplay, how was EQ better than some MUDs in the terms I listed? It was an evolutionary leap when it came to movement and mob placement, sure. But the majority of it was almost the same. I remember transitioning between SojournMUD and EQ and felt like I had already played the game and I already knew what to do in the game. There was no mystery for me other than exploring a new world.
Are you really comparing a text mud with a 3D online world set in two completely different worlds?

You could equally argue Sojourn was a waste of time as it was a cheap knock off of pen and paper gaming in the Forgotten Realms, and missing half of the Monster Manual and better parts of the Forgotten Realms. Plus it wasn't even that great of a MUD to be honest. It's big claim was it's setting.

The main difference between EQ classic and WoW classic for me was the lack of danger in WoW. Sure WoW had the ui thing figured out and questing was easier but in every other way WoW seemed like an exact clone of EQ to me, except there was no danger, no excitement and no fun in WoW.
I had a lot of fun in WOW. No, there was never the 'prepare to die' feeling, or the 'first new car' luster, but it remains the best MMO ever created in my humble opinion. EQ still holds a place for me in the first new car in the MMO 3D world for me.

My point I keep repeating is the 3D Levelquest world has been done to death. It's time for something completely different. While I'd love a holodeck, I'd take something that wasn't static content and co-op based worlds where nothing changes and we sit on the treadmill of mudflation or realm ranks repeating the same stuff over and over.
 

Rezz

Mr. Poopybutthole
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Leashing stuff.
Those interactions are nice. And they exist in modern games. Just not in instances. You can train people in most mmos if you bring aggro mobs by them and then they leash or join in. I know WoW/WAR/FFXI/TOR did this for a fact. It's one of the reasons people avoid others in open world environments to a degree, because there are a lot of fuckheads on the internet. Except instead of all the fuckhead mmo players being crammed into one game (regardless of playstyle preferences et al) you have lots of games where fuckheads congregate. So people tend to play games where they can avoid having to deal with fuckheads as much as possible.

Those moments are memorable and I will totally agree with it. They also created the desire for people to only form guild groups and to do the most dangerous shit possible so that the average fuckhead trainer would not be around. By creating an environment where fuckheads can proliferate and be their fuckheaded selves willy nilly, you will be creating an environment that most sane people will want to avoid. And since, unlike when we all played EQ, alternatives exist these days, people will leave the game en masse or avoid areas where those fuckheads congregate. Which defeats the "purpose" of having fuckheads in your game since people will avoid them by either leaving their area or leaving the game, since alternatives exist.

Look, I totally get the need to be able to interact with other players. If I could positively affect literally every player on my server on a daily basis, I would be fucking stoked. I have no idea how many random stranger's bodies I pulled up out of shitty situations when I played EQ, for zero reward and only because I knew I could and thus I did. The number tops the amount of times I enjoyed the "leashing" aspect at least 100 to 1. Because while I agree with Khane entirely that leashing should exist logically, I also disagree with the idea that the leashing aspect created unintended bonuses that other games haven't/can't replicate. You can totally build that sense of community (and it was, prior to LFD and increasingly smaller raid sizes in WoW) in modern games, but it is the desire of some people to fuck shit up for other people and be total fuckheads that makes me abhorrent to the idea. I'm no white knight, and I don't want a game of only positives. But I -do- want to limit the amount of fuckheadery that I and others have to deal with on a daily basis from other players. Because if my memory serves me correctly, some faggot guild on EQMac just woke up the sleeper as a big Fuck You to a server that existed fine prior to them joining it. That shit right there? Might make for a memory. But it will definitely make for people being pissed over someone being a fuckhead without recompense.

Unless the game you are designing requires a valid social security number as well as a valid home billing address and phone number to be accessible from in order to log into the game. Information that people you fuck with can see so they can dole out the badly needed ass-whooping that some people really should have gotten when they were younger so they could not be fuckheads. I'm ok with that then. Battle.net ID+10~

Seriously though, again, leashing and its effects were completely unitended and you cannot reproduce that type of environment in today's market because there are options and people know how shit works. It is a great example of how something worked a decade ago. It is not a great example of how things should work today. Unless your aim is to attract only complete mmo newbs and let them experience late 1999 all over again, the intended result will not be the actual result.
 

Draegan_sl

2 Minutes Hate
10,034
3
Are you really comparing a text mud with a 3D online world set in two completely different worlds?

You could equally argue Sojourn was a waste of time as it was a cheap knock off of pen and paper gaming in the Forgotten Realms, and missing half of the Monster Manual and better parts of the Forgotten Realms. Plus it wasn't even that great of a MUD to be honest. It's big claim was it's setting.
Yes I'm comparing both of them mechanically. I already said that EQ's major revolution was bringing a 3D world online in 1998. That is huge. But compare the mechanics of EQ to Sojourn.

Combat for both was based off of autoattack and casting skills and or spells when they were off-cooldown. It was a slower paced combat system.
Pulls worked exactly the same. You split groups, CC'd them during combat etc.
Spells were mem based. Sojourn had you memorize spells where you had circles and spell slots.
Both games had trains.

I mean where else do you want to go. EQ was a 3D version of Sojourn down to almost every detail. It was a major transition too that was awesome.

I never said EQ was a waste of time, but I did mention several times that some PNP nerds would laugh at me like I laugh at EQ neckbeards.
 

Grim1

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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Yes I'm comparing both of them mechanically. I already said that EQ's major revolution was bringing a 3D world online in 1998. That is huge. But compare the mechanics of EQ to Sojourn.

Combat for both was based off of autoattack and casting skills and or spells when they were off-cooldown. It was a slower paced combat system.
Pulls worked exactly the same. You split groups, CC'd them during combat etc.
Spells were mem based. Sojourn had you memorize spells where you had circles and spell slots.
Both games had trains.

I mean where else do you want to go. EQ was a 3D version of Sojourn down to almost every detail. It was a major transition too that was awesome.

I never said EQ was a waste of time, but I did mention several times that some PNP nerds would laugh at me like I laugh at EQ neckbeards.
So you are a neckbeard laughing at neckbeards.... and proud of it
wink.png
 

Gecko_sl

shitlord
1,482
0
Combat for both was based off of autoattack and casting skills and or spells when they were off-cooldown. It was a slower paced combat system.
Pulls worked exactly the same. You split groups, CC'd them during combat etc.
Spells were mem based. Sojourn had you memorize spells where you had circles and spell slots.
Both games had trains.

I mean where else do you want to go. EQ was a 3D version of Sojourn down to almost every detail. It was a major transition too that was awesome.

I never said EQ was a waste of time, butI did mention several times that some PNP nerds would laugh at me like I laugh at EQ neckbeards.
Guilty as charged, sadly, but my overriding point isn't that all fantasy is derived from AD&D, or that EQ didn't jack code from Sojourn, just like Sojourn jacked it's code from many other MUDs.

My point is the jump from text MUD to 3D MMO was a huge progression. We have not made the next jump to something completely new, be it large and lush dynamic worlds, with gameplay a la the hugely immersive 'trailers' we get for expansions, Console based motion detect MMOs, or truly player controlled infrastructure's in a fantasy setting with actual change and politics involved.
 

mkopec

<Gold Donor>
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I liked the way Rift added some dynamic shit with the invasions and rifts. If someone could expand on this idea further and integrate this further into PvE play I think it could change the genre for the better. Like dont have the player go to the action, have the action come to the player type of thing.
 

supertouch_sl

shitlord
1,858
3
i love that rezz keeps peddling the "eq players were naive" bullshit as though no one ever got used to the way things worked in the game. the dude really is an idiot of the highest order.
 

Itzena_sl

shitlord
4,609
6
The main difference between EQ classic and WoW classic for me was the lack of danger in WoW. Sure WoW had the ui thing figured out and questing was easier but in every other way WoW seemed like an exact clone of EQ to me, except there was no danger, no excitement and no fun in WoW.

And that is why I lasted only a couple months in WoW and every other mmo like it. Without that sense of danger, I don't feel a sense of accomplishment when I win, so boredom sets in.

What EQ turned into isn't the EQ I enjoyed. What WoW turned into doesn't matter to me, since it's base game is boring without the danger.
How many peopleactuallylost in EQ, though? I'm not talking "Whoops, I didn't get a res better grind XP for a while"-style temporary setbacks by the way; I'm talking about the whole "You could LOSE YOUR CORPSE AND ALL YOUR GEAR" thing that some people love to hype up.
 

mkopec

<Gold Donor>
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My brother did in everfrost peaks. Granted it was a noob character like lv 12 or some shit, but he did lose it and all his stuff. We tried to find it for hours and just could not. BTW he was like 12 at the time and he balled his eyes out over that.
 

supertouch_sl

shitlord
1,858
3
i lost my corpse on two occasions. the first time, i didn't realize your corpse decayed in 30 minutes or whatever if you were below a certain level. i spent hours looking for it in butcherblock. the second time, i died and didn't log back in for a couple of weeks. i lost all of my crafted armor and convinced a gm to give me a full set of silver plate (can't remember the name).

anyway, i don't think anyone has argued that you risked losing your corpse every time you died.