EQ Never

Gecko_sl

shitlord
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But this is a problem that mmos have always struggled with, in a single player game you can give people a difficulty tuning tool to let them pick their poison. In an mmo you can't so if you make the game harder and harder so that the 'good' players find it challenging you start to alienate more and more of the 'bad' players. .
What you call good players are often times min/maxer types who have the time/resources to spend 25 hours a week and an additional 25 creating spreadsheets or studying how to play their class or how to beat said encounter. This is no different really in single player games or MMOs. In my opinion designers need to ignore these people and tune towards the player who mostly plays casually. I wouldn't call them 'bads', I'd call them 'normals'.

The fun of EQ was that it was fresh. The same design that made it fun wouldn't work because most of the people who enjoyed it back then have migrated into the 'normal' category, and the average new player who didn't are part of generation console and have no desire for the same type of time eating game.

WOW has gone full tilt after normals, and it's obviously been the right strategy. A Dark Souls MMO would be amusing, but it'd last about as long as Andred/Mordred in DAOC did.
 

Convo

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
8,761
613
What you call good players are often times min/maxer types who have the time/resources to spend 25 hours a week and an additional 25 creating spreadsheets or studying how to play their class or how to beat said encounter. This is no different really in single player games or MMOs. In my opinion designers need to ignore these people and tune towards the player who mostly plays casually. I wouldn't call them 'bads', I'd call them 'normals'.

The fun of EQ was that it was fresh. The same design that made it fun wouldn't work because most of the people who enjoyed it back then have migrated into the 'normal' category, and the average new player who didn't are part of generation console and have no desire for the same type of time eating game.

WOW has gone full tilt after normals, and it's obviously been the right strategy. A Dark Souls MMO would be amusing, but it'd last about as long as Andred/Mordred in DAOC did.
If it was the right strategy a lot of the WoW clones would be more successful. I personally don't need a new EQ to be terribly punishing or time consuming at every turn. What people are saying is we need to get back to games that create community, have an open world, large sprawling dungeons, group reliant, give you a real sense of danger/adventure, unique class systems and factions, meaningful loot that last longer than the next quest hub, unique items(clickies) Options FFS. This WoW argument thing is getting old already. It's ok for a game to have it's own identity, you know that right? I'm not trying to be a dick by asking that but some people just can't visualize any game being successful outside of WoW. Dev's can create a sense of accomplishment in game with minimal play time. The player may not gain 2 levels or a bunch of loot but that's all relevant to the person. If you have 30 mins to log on you would typically prioritize and accomplish what you see fit. It's not the current approach but it's still something. I think we can have a modern EQ that builds from it's roots and "normal" players can still pick it up, enjoy it and have a positive experience.
 

Gecko_sl

shitlord
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I don't think you can have your cake and eat it to with this design and still attract the normals. I hope I'm wrong, but I don't see it. Unless this has some hook and isn't just derivative of EQ then in my opinion it will not sell. I'm not Itzena, here to defend WOW. I'm playing Vanguard which is as close to the design you list above as currently exists.

The genre needs to move forward. To me that is more about dynamic content and more player controlled objects within the world itself, and less about the old style large static dungeons and AD&D class structure.
 

Mick

<Gold Donor>
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I think that genre can move forward and still use old style large static dungeons.
By using dynamic or some type evolving content in and around the dungeons.
 

Deisun_sl

shitlord
118
0
If my character does 25 cool attack animations when I press auto attack, I'm okay with just pressing auto attack. If my character gets another 20 attack animations when he unlocks dual wield, again okay with pressing A. If he gets anther 10, when he gets double attack, flurry, backstab or flying kick, I'm okay with just pressing A. If procing my Yak unleashes a wicked sweeT! particle effect, I'm okay with just pressing A.
I liked what you said here and it reminds me of my first character (rogue) and really enjoying starting to watch my character slowly get better at double attacking and dual weilding. Eventually seeing those double and triple attacks and finally quad attacks. It's really fun to see your character develop strength like that and really its just such a simple thing. Auto-attack can be a good thing in my book if done in a way that suggests you're improving more and more.
 

Dumar_sl

shitlord
3,712
4
The genre needs to move forward. To me that is more about dynamic content and more player controlled objects within the world itself, and less about the old style large static dungeons and AD&D class structure.
All of that doesn't matter if the overall design is still stuck with instances full of little groups each playing their own little game on a server and calling it an MMO.
 

Convo

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
8,761
613
I don't think you can have your cake and eat it to with this design and still attract the normals. I hope I'm wrong, but I don't see it. Unless this has some hook and isn't just derivative of EQ then in my opinion it will not sell. I'm not Itzena, here to defend WOW. I'm playing Vanguard which is as close to the design you list above as currently exists.

The genre needs to move forward. To me that is more about dynamic content and more player controlled objects within the world itself, and less about the old style large static dungeons and AD&D class structure.
Those things can work together as ideas have already been listed in this thread. I'm not asking to go back in time(although I would be ok with it) I just think by designing for the "normal" player you're limiting developers. How is that good for the genre? Dynamic content is a cool idea and I actually like the idea of it being used for seasons/weather. Even just a creek that during the dry season gives you access to a dungeon for a few weeks until the water rises again. Things of that nature.

People forget that EQ at least for my class had some milestones that took my mind off leveling and onto a new focus, from Noob gear, Jboots, Spells like Ice Comet, things you heard about and looked forward to. It wasn't just endure a long grind. There was an enjoyable experience in that process. For me at least. The concerns seem to be about time. But if we make every game based around a players "time" what is that going to get us in the end? Just more of the same. We are wasting a lot of bright minds in the industry who are probably throwing out some cool ideas because they might be too punishing or time consuming.
 

supertouch_sl

shitlord
1,858
3
what kind of combat do you guys want? combat in an mmo is restricted by things like group dynamics and other mechanisms not present in single-player games. second of all, mmos should not be made with casual players in mind because casual players don't play mmos. people nowadays want games free of inconvenience and frustration but that doesn't make them casual. it makes them boring fucking people. truly casual players aren't the ones supporting the gaming industry despite whatever half-baked arguments you come up with. you wanna make a game for working moms and their children? take a page from wizard101's book.
 

Convo

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
8,761
613
what kind of combat do you guys want? combat in an mmo is restricted by things like group dynamics and other mechanisms not present in single-player games. second of all, mmos should not be made with casual players in mind because casual players don't play mmos. people nowadays want games free of inconvenience and frustration but that doesn't make them casual. it makes them boring fucking people. truly casual players aren't the ones supporting the gaming industry despite whatever half-baked arguments you come up with. you wanna make a game for working moms and their children? take a page from wizard101's book.
I'll admit that combat isn't my strength as I always played a game with whatever system they had and just rolled with it. I did like quading and snare/root kiting with my Wizard for soloing. For grouping, I think it could be a little slower and not so twitch based. I'd prefer group combo stuff, solid mob AI, etc.
 

Draegan_sl

2 Minutes Hate
10,034
3
I liked what you said here and it reminds me of my first character (rogue) and really enjoying starting to watch my character slowly get better at double attacking and dual weilding. Eventually seeing those double and triple attacks and finally quad attacks. It's really fun to see your character develop strength like that and really its just such a simple thing. Auto-attack can be a good thing in my book if done in a way that suggests you're improving more and more.
I would love to attempt to re-make the old autoattack structure in the game. Then give players limited amount of skills/spells to use with longer cooldowns (10-20 seconds to a minute) so instead of mashing a keyboard you're using them with purpose.

There is a lot you can do with that type of system. I wrote about a pulse system in one of these threads somewhere.

http://www.rerolled.org/showthread.p...5645#post45645

Game Design: Combat Mechanics
MMORPGs have traditionally been developed around global cooldown, skill cooldown and other hotbar mechanics and less about movement, timing and positioning. Combat mechanics in DraeganMMO will most likely be a hybird. Players will be able to select a certain combination of skills to bring to a battle like a deck. Instead of having the full array of 5 hotbars full of 30 different abilities, a player will have a much smaller selection of active abilities to choose from. Players will be able to switch this in and out at any time while out of combat.

Combat will have "pulses" inside these pulses players will have a chance to dodge, parry or evade attacks as well as execute autoattacks. Active abilities can be used at any time and aren't restrained to pulses. They work like any other combat system.

Inside these pulses, players stats will take over as well as some of the passive skills. In many autoattack based games, players will attack with their weapon every X amount of seconds whether that's weapon dependent (one sword is faster than the other), weapon-type dependent (all daggers are faster than all swords) or a combination of the above. Instead, combat will have pulses where a limited amount of things can happen at any given time.

Each pulse will be two seconds (this time will be heavily tested and tweaked) where players will autoattack. There will be passive skills/buffs/debuffs/attacks that can increase or decrease pulse timing of yourself and opponents. The basis of this is that there will be passive skills that increase the amount of attacks per pulse. So for example a newbie character will attack once with their weapon inside a pulse. A higher level character with Double Attack trained will attack twice during a pulse. An expert character might attack three or four times.

This also works with defensive passives like dodge, parry and block. A new character can only dodge once. Higher proficient characters might be able to dodge 2 or 3 times inside a pulse for attacks that are available to dodge or parry.

In addition to hitpoints and mana, players will also have stamina. Stamina is a resource system for all active skills. Stamina also effects your movement as well. While in combat if your stamina reaches a certain threshold, your movement speed is decreased. Running and walking in combat also consumes stamina. If you are in combat, wounded and attempting to flee, sprinting away will consume stamina forcing players to slow down at times.

Stamina can be augmented to regenerate incredibly fast and is not meant to be a hard limit on simple movement. Low tier spells and skills can be used to regenerate stamina like healing spells. Any movement form outside of combat does not consume stamina. Stamina is there to limit the amount of active skills you have to fire off in combat, allowing you to pay attention more and make skill usage more tactical. Spells cast be cast from Stamina when Mana reaches zero, but depletes it incredibly fast and does not regenerate as fast if used in that fashion.

Passive attack skills aren't just augments like Double and Triple Attack. You can include movements and special effects as well (think Bard songs in Vanguard). These attacks consume zero Stamina and happen during pulses. Certain abilities sync pulses with other character to perform special attacks.

I'd would be interested in a system that was more reliant on autoattack and sparingly use of skills. I think it could be done and make the game more entertaining at the same point. Sometimes you just don't want to play a game where APM and reflexes are heavy factors.
 

mkopec

<Gold Donor>
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I think that the focus needs to be taken away from the end game raiding and more on the journey. The journey does not have to suck, or be just a spell/skill learning curve on your way to the "real game". Fuck that! This is where games like WoW took the direction of mmorpgs in an entirely wrong direction. And now they are stuck there, and every game since has done the same thing, basically training the player that the leveling is only a shitty steppingstone on the way to thereal game.

But the real game, the one youve been waiting for, sucks ass. Its nothing more than 1-2 instances with 5+ bosses each you grind over and over, every week, until your turn with the RNG comes up and you are awarded with some generic +10 ilvl gear. (its not even about the +stats anymore they dumbed this down as well) And maybe in a few months they release another end game dungeon with 5 more bosses to do the same with. Oh and if you are bored between the times you are raiding, you can do some daily quests, which is, again, the same content over and over, another grind, so you can raise some rep with some faction you absolutely could give a shit about and has no other impact other than giving you access to some vendor which will sell you another generic +10 ilvl piece.

The real game can begin at lv1 if done properly. MMORPGS should bring this back, because games like EQ, Anarchy Online, Asherons Call, the end game didnt matter that much, it was all about the journey to most which played them.
 

Draegan_sl

2 Minutes Hate
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So how do you build a game where it's all about the journey? What kind of content are you creating that will keep people occupied? I assume that characters won't change as much since you're not leveling as fast and your not getting gear upgrades as fast. So what are you doing that keeps people playing your game for 5-10 hours in between dings and gear upgrades?
 

Convo

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
8,761
613
So how do you build a game where it's all about the journey? What kind of content are you creating that will keep people occupied? I assume that characters won't change as much since you're not leveling as fast and your not getting gear upgrades as fast. So what are you doing that keeps people playing your game for 5-10 hours in between dings and gear upgrades?
At least you admit it's not really about time and casual players. People make time if they enjoy the game.

What are you doing besides dungeon crawls, tradeskills, player trading(non auction style) dynamic content(I put that in for Gecko) Helping a friend, farming for coin/Mats, running around a town talking to every NPC trying to find a rare quest that may lead to an awesome item/working on a quest, exploring remote areas of the world, Looking for a rare named for a clicky(beloved Jboot quest example) Player housing using our minecraft discussion etc.. I'm sure others could add to the list..Personally, those things are enough for me. You also have to be cognizant that there is always a chance for loot to drop. You can just as easily be paying a game at max level for hours and hours and never get an upgrade loot wise yet continue to play.
 

Muligan

Trakanon Raider
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So how do you build a game where it's all about the journey? What kind of content are you creating that will keep people occupied? I assume that characters won't change as much since you're not leveling as fast and your not getting gear upgrades as fast. So what are you doing that keeps people playing your game for 5-10 hours in between dings and gear upgrades?
I think it comes down to the value of the environment. I'll give some generalized examples that I think made the journey on EQ fun for me. I think of the value of camps and travel between towns. I think of Sand Giants for FS farming and plat with Lockjaw for a piece of gear. I think of trying to pull a camp of Dervs or Bandits without pulling a too many or a named like Dorn. I think of going to Unrest for good exp, loot, fellowship, and a challenge and what I did to get there (i.e. boat, avoiding faction hating NPC's). I think of traveling to get certain spells, meeting up with friends for a raid, or helping someone complete a quest.

These may be bad examples and a little cliche for someone who played EQ but, I think of everything I did along the way in EQ and the fun I had that honestly eclipse my end game experience. I raided for years in a raiding guild but when we talk about old times, its about camps, dungeons, and the dum things we did and the people we met. Right now, the journey is just a quest line of some really boring quests. Pretty well everything around you is just a waste of space. This why I dislike instances. This allows you from a design standpoint to not put so much worth into your open world. You stuff all your best exp and loot experiences into instanced dungeons and completely disregard everything else. People don't want to take part of the journey because it is simply an annoyance and not worth your time. MMO's have even developed to skip this step. Just sit in a city queue up for your experience and off you go. What's the point? You might as well remake diablo and have everyone sit in a chat room and wait to go into a game. Until an MMO puts everything needed to progress your character back into the open world, you will never have this "journey" again.
 

Cthon_sl

shitlord
25
0
I think, even more so, it's about a journey that you undertake with other people (characters). Think about how interdependent all classes are in EQ. It's a little bit artificial now with mercs, but still, think about BUFFS. There are a ton of buffs that are given by multiple classes and your experience is so much better and easier with them. That's one of the main reasons the Guild Lobby exists. Park your char there for MGBs.

I'm not saying that this sort of mechanic should be built in, but I think the idea of people having to depend on one another, should be. I think part of the "journey" back in EQ was simply learning your class, and learning how not to die. Knowledge of your environment, your class mechanics, zones etc. all took time to accumulate. These games today where you have a MAX level character in a matter of days, that's just bullshit. It's lazy game design and it's killed mmos, one right after the other. I don't know what the solution is, but I do think it's a critical issue.
 

Convo

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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613
plus I'd like to see a way to tradeskill/sell and buy stuff via smartphone since I can do without an AH. Maybe tie the whole system into a player made trading city where you build your own storefront.
 

Draegan_sl

2 Minutes Hate
10,034
3
At least you admit it's not really about time and casual players. People make time if they enjoy the game.

What are you doing besides dungeon crawls, tradeskills, player trading(non auction style) dynamic content(I put that in for Gecko) Helping a friend, farming for coin/Mats, running around a town talking to every NPC trying to find a rare quest that may lead to an awesome item/working on a quest, exploring remote areas of the world, Looking for a rare named for a clicky(beloved Jboot quest example) Player housing using our minecraft discussion etc.. I'm sure others could add to the list..Personally, those things are enough for me. You also have to be cognizant that there is always a chance for loot to drop. You can just as easily be paying a game at max level for hours and hours and never get an upgrade loot wise yet continue to play.
Well that really doesn't explain much other than, "Here's some kind of content!" To be snarky, it sounds like you're saying, "Here play GW2 but instead of taking 2-3 hours to level, you spend 8-10". Your content list is the same as any other game, but you're automatically assuming people will tolerate doing the same content in a single leveling bracket longer than a typical MMO. You're not telling me how do you alleviate that boredom? (I know there are some people here than have no problem killing the same camp for 40 hours in a row just to get a few levels and one item, but that's not normal and pretty shitty game design)


Also, I've always said that people will play anything as long as they find joy in it. My only argument was always: How many people do you thing would enjoy it, and would "it" be worth investing millions of dollars in creating.
 

Convo

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
8,761
613
Well that really doesn't explain much other than, "Here's some kind of content!" To be snarky, it sounds like you're saying, "Here play GW2 but instead of taking 2-3 hours to level, you spend 8-10". Your content list is the same as any other game, but you're automatically assuming people will tolerate doing the same content in a single leveling bracket longer than a typical MMO. You're not telling me how do you alleviate that boredom? (I know there are some people here than have no problem killing the same camp for 40 hours in a row just to get a few levels and one item, but that's not normal and pretty shitty game design)


Also, I've always said that people will play anything as long as they find joy in it. My only argument was always: How many people do you thing would enjoy it, and would "it" be worth investing millions of dollars in creating.
My content is similar to EQ where player interaction actually matters. The world has more danger in it. Classes are more unique and players rely on each other. you're not accounting for those things which make up the real journey/experience people are talking about. It's like it just alludes you. I'm not going to break it down bit by bit. You're being difficult and asking us to reinvent the wheel when we think the model used in 1999 worked and could be built on without turning the game into a casual carnival where everyone gets a prize..

And the money argument again.. A lot...
 

mkopec

<Gold Donor>
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There are examples of such games, maybe you never played them. It sure sounds like you never did. I already pointed to these games as examples of the journey not the end game.

EQ did not have any end game until well into their 3rd expansion pack. The entire focus of EQ until Velious was group content, with a few "dragons" thrown in to zerg down. And even after Velious, 85% of the game revolved around the 6 man group. Same with Anarchy Online. so much shit to do in that game that no one ever was saying, "God I wish I was max level already because then I could raid some shitty instance over and over."

Same with Asherons Call, I only played this game briefly, but this game was, again, about the journey, theRPGexperience, not some "end game".

There is your three examples to take ideas from, modernize them, and BAM! You have a game tailored around the experience of being in a world rather than some end game instanced bullshit you do over and over.