EQ Never

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Draegan_sl

2 Minutes Hate
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qwerty_sl said:
The problem with that (dumb) line of thinking, is this; the mouse only has 2 or 3 buttons. You could use the scroll wheel to scroll through abilities, but that just becomes a clunky and slow way of reaching what you want. The best way of giving the player access to several abilities at once, is to assign them to the number keys. And as soon as you do that - there is your hotbar. You could hide the hotbar like Skyrim does, or any number of FPS's, but it's still technically there.

There are only a few alternatives to this, and I can't be bothered explaining the problems with them. (Things like, voice control and mouse gestures). Fact is, hotkey combat is as good as it gets for now. The important thing is what you do with it. The way combat works with hotkeys could be massively different from game to game. One game could shoot various instant missiles with each key, almost like an fps, while the player has to run around and dodge similar attacks coming back at them - fast paced, skill based, like an FPS. The other extreme would be like EQ where each key has a cast time etc. and they have to stand still to cast. Very slow paced, but tactical.

In other words, the important thing is not the hotkeys, it's the mechanics of how they work.

p.s. Some of you should have played a game called Savage.
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You played Skyrim with essentially just a mouse. Hotbars aren't necessary. You can create a game with contextual skill based system. You don't need stupid mouse gestures or other kind of control mechanisms, but you don't need a combat system where you need enough hotbar space to allow for 30 abilities.

Anyway, when I say hotbar combat, I'm mostly referring to WOW-EQ2 like system where you have 2-4 bars full of stuff. I also don't like rotational combat where you have to dance through 8 abilities in a sequence while tossing in cooldown boosters.

I really enjoyed NWN's scheme. I like how Dota or Lol's system where you have only a QWER and AA and your abilities on short cooldowns. Instead of spamming abilities, you have to use them situationally or strategically.

No matter how retarded Rift's system was, at least you only had to worry about 2-3 buttons.
 
Pyros

Pyros

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FPS doesn't necessarily mean twitch fast paced gameplay. It could be "realistic" FPS where you don't swing your 60kg 2H axe every second but instead have long windups and need to make sure you connect with specific parts of the monsters to inflict more damage(localized dmg, variable depending on the mob so it's not always the head that matters), stamina bar that makes each hit important and so on. Blocking is done in real time too and follows similar concepts where you actually have to block the right direction and shit like that. Spells could also require mouse movement or some sort of minigame that would make it interesting.

Granted for large scale raids it'd be messy as fuck so that's probably not the combat type for an EQ, but for a small coop game it'd be a fuckton more awesome. Think a bit like Mount and Blade combat and stuff like that, not button mashing not twitch FPS but still very fun.
 
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qwertyqweqwertwqert

<Banned>
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I liked the way Rift's classes work. My only gripe is that it's ruined by the speed of it. Mobs die in seconds, so there is no need or time for thought. It's a quick 12333 and the mob is dead. If it had longer fights where you needed to think about tactics mid fight, it would be perfect.

It already felt like that on occasion, like when I played a Rogue when the game was new. I would do the 12333 thing but it barely did any damage, the point was build up combo points, and then how you spent the combo points was the important thing. I could heal myself, do a big AoE, a big single target attack, a melee buff etc. So depending on who or what you were fighting, you had to think about what was happening and then shape the outcome.

Vanguard did this even better, more utility, and it had longer fights too. My only gripe with Vanguard's combat is that it was over engineered. Soloing was generally a bit dull and pointless because you couldn't go in to dungeons and stuff. And in a group, it was too easy and too easy to control. Tanks had almost infinite aggro ability, healers had infinite healing, etc. It was almost perfect, just not quite.
 
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Bellringer_sl

shitlord
387
0
Combat is hard for me to have an opinion on. I do like auto attack with 4-6 situational abilities. This game will probably be for the PS4 right? expect about as many abilities as a controller allows? idk.


Edit: wanted to add that I really miss when trash mobs were actually a thing to worry about if you got more than 1-2.
 
D

Draegan_sl

2 Minutes Hate
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Personally I really like DCUO's combat. The game was kind of shitty, but I really did enjoy simply playing the game. Also PVP was kind of fun.
 
Pyros

Pyros

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Bellringer_sl said:
Combat is hard for me to have an opinion on. I do like auto attack with 4-6 situational abilities. This game will probably be for the PS4 right? expect about as many abilities as a controller allows? idk.
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If you look at FFXIV though, that doesn't mean 4. They managed to make a control scheme that lets you use like 32 abilities and potentially more if you swap bars, so in theory you could play EQ2 with a PS controller(it would be a fucking horrible experience however).
 
tad10

tad10

Elisha Dushku
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Draegan_sl said:
Personally I really like DCUO's combat. The game was kind of shitty, but I really did enjoy simply playing the game. Also PVP was kind of fun.
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DCUO was a blast until you hit level 30. But it wasn't really an MMO. Anyway, EQN needs hotbar combat, preferably EQ-like with a limited number of selections 8-10 max.
I'll agree 10 hotbars of 10 bars each gets ridiculous. Anything else means a shitty game no matter what else it has.
 
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Bellringer_sl

shitlord
387
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Pyros_sl said:
If you look at FFXIV though, that doesn't mean 4. They managed to make a control scheme that lets you use like 32 abilities and potentially more if you swap bars, so in theory you could play EQ2 with a PS controller(it would be a fucking horrible experience however).
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Yuck.
 
shabushabu

shabushabu

Molten Core Raider
1,408
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Draegan_sl said:
You played Skyrim with essentially just a mouse. Hotbars aren't necessary. You can create a game with contextual skill based system. You don't need stupid mouse gestures or other kind of control mechanisms, but you don't need a combat system where you need enough hotbar space to allow for 30 abilities.

Anyway, when I say hotbar combat, I'm mostly referring to WOW-EQ2 like system where you have 2-4 bars full of stuff. I also don't like rotational combat where you have to dance through 8 abilities in a sequence while tossing in cooldown boosters.

I really enjoyed NWN's scheme. I like how Dota or Lol's system where you have only a QWER and AA and your abilities on short cooldowns. Instead of spamming abilities, you have to use them situationally or strategically.

No matter how retarded Rift's system was, at least you only had to worry about 2-3 buttons.
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Skyrim combat with a bow was great ... A caster it sucks.... I mostly play casters in MMOs hence why I like lots of spells 2 spells and swap breaks reality for a caster as does skill bars for a fighter. 2 best MMO spell caster classes for me were ddo wizard ( can't get enough ) and almost any class in Vg. Blood mage owned ...
 
Grim1

Grim1

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As Bellringer mentioned, it's going to be on the PS4 so that has some inherent limitations. Which is great for keeping the hotbar to a minimum. EQ2 had some interesting features but it's skill / hotbar bloat is disgusting, Rift has the same problem. I loved EQ1 and GW1's simple 8 max spell slots. EQ1 also had melee skills, weapon clickies, etc.., but it still was much more manageable than later games became.

I prefer to play the game, not the hotbar.


Pyros_sl said:
If you look at FFXIV though, that doesn't mean 4. They managed to make a control scheme that lets you use like 32 abilities and potentially more if you swap bars, so in theory you could play EQ2 with a PS controller(it would be a fucking horrible experience however).
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Hopefully, the EQNext devs avoid this route like the plaque.
 
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Bellringer_sl

shitlord
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I am probably going to get shit for this but I would like to see a system where auto attacks do the majority of damage and abilities are for situational purposes and awareness of those circumstances are what defines player skill. Positioning (MAX RANGE, MIN RANGE!) would also be a key aspect in both damaging and keeping yourself out of shit.
 
Pyros

Pyros

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Well while I like combat to have limited skills, I really liked all the fluff spells say in Vanguard or I guess original EQ, stuff like Levitate, Tracking, Invis, Sneak and all that sort of shit that's not directly combat related. So while I'm all for limiting combat skill slots in hotbar combat, I hope all the utility/fun abilities are off that limit so you can use whenever. It'd be really dumb to have to pick between a DPS ability and an out of combat movement ability for example.

As for how many combat abilities, I think 10-12 is fine. Basically one standard bar. Less and you lose a lot of options or combat becomes dull due to too little buttons.
 
shabushabu

shabushabu

Molten Core Raider
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Pyros_sl said:
Well while I like combat to have limited skills, I really liked all the fluff spells say in Vanguard or I guess original EQ, stuff like Levitate, Tracking, Invis, Sneak and all that sort of shit that's not directly combat related. So while I'm all for limiting combat skill slots in hotbar combat, I hope all the utility/fun abilities are off that limit so you can use whenever. It'd be really dumb to have to pick between a DPS ability and an out of combat movement ability for example.

As for how many combat abilities, I think 10-12 is fine. Basically one standard bar. Less and you lose a lot of options or combat becomes dull due to too little buttons.
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Yes, what would be great is that the game world would be designed where those skills ( non combat ) aid you in exploration ( vanguard did this very very well ).
 
D

Dumar_sl

shitlord
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shabushabu_sl said:
Yes, what would be great is that the game world would be designed where those skills ( non combat ) aid you in exploration ( vanguard did this very very well ).
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UO did this as well. It was awesome. Of course, we can't get it now because players might just have to make choices. I know, right? Getting retarded daily quest monkeys to make choices that might just impact their characters beyond the generic 30sec talent swaps. Such crazy and novel gameplay... in 1997.
 
Pyros

Pyros

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Dumar_sl said:
UO did this as well. It was awesome. Of course, we can't get it now because players might just have to make choices. I know, right? Getting retarded daily quest monkeys to make choices that might just impact their characters beyond the generic 30sec talent swaps. Such crazy and novel gameplay... in 1997.
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I don't remember UO doing any of this. It had plenty of completely worthless skills that people only used to get perfect stats(anatomy, the thing to check the target's inteligence to lvl int, spirit speak and so on) and the only exploration skill really was Sneak, which was definitely very cool. Eventually they had to change all the worthless skills and give them combat side effects so people took them, so Anatomy would boost your melee dmg, Evaluate Int(forgot how it was actually called) would reduce the resist of your enemy and shit like that. As for the choices do you mean the 7 GM cap? It's not like it took more than 2-3days of macroing to completely change your char from a mage to a dex monkey, especially after they added the option to lock stats.

UO did a lot of great things but their skill system was weak as fuck back when I played and almost everyone had the exact same set of skills which was battlemage(either swords for katana/halberd or archery for bow/xbow, magery, resist, medit/eval int when those were added or wrestling before to avoid interupts while casting and tactics for more dmg) or dex monkey which I forgot what exactly it was but it was like swords/resist/bandage/poison/tactics then a bit of magery for recall and anatomy when that was boosted. Oh and you had the random bard tamer sometimes too. Then you had crafting mules, but basically no one bothered having smith or mining on their main cause you'd lose so much the char would be worthless at combat.
 
P

Pliny_sl

shitlord
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As far as combat goes, I can settle with a limited hot-key bar. However, I'm hoping SOE doesn't implement a macro hot-key system like Rift. It was one of the foremost reasons I felt a disconnect from that game. Several months in, after the community determined the best 1, 2, or 3 hot-key combination with x number of attacks in each macro, it became more of a numbers game than a challenge. For me, a combat system that has greater longevity introduces room for the player to make split second decisions to survive and succeed based on their skill - not the highest dps macro de jour.
 
tad10

tad10

Elisha Dushku
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Bellringer_sl said:
I am probably going to get shit for this but I would like to see a system where auto attacks do the majority of damage and abilities are for situational purposes and awareness of those circumstances are what defines player skill. Positioning (MAX RANGE, MIN RANGE!) would also be a key aspect in both damaging and keeping yourself out of shit.
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I'm all for this. Auto-attack was unfairly demonized by communist sympatheizers and other bad people.
 
E

etchazz

Trakanon Raider
2,707
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Pyros_sl said:
FPS doesn't necessarily mean twitch fast paced gameplay. It could be "realistic" FPS where you don't swing your 60kg 2H axe every second but instead have long windups and need to make sure you connect with specific parts of the monsters to inflict more damage(localized dmg, variable depending on the mob so it's not always the head that matters), stamina bar that makes each hit important and so on. Blocking is done in real time too and follows similar concepts where you actually have to block the right direction and shit like that. Spells could also require mouse movement or some sort of minigame that would make it interesting.

Granted for large scale raids it'd be messy as fuck so that's probably not the combat type for an EQ, but for a small coop game it'd be a fuckton more awesome. Think a bit like Mount and Blade combat and stuff like that, not button mashing not twitch FPS but still very fun.
Click to expand...
the physics in gaming doesn't exist yet for this to be possible. although it would be cool if it was possible to create a game where you had to literally block an incoming sword swing with your shield and then jockey for position for a counter strike, or have swords clashing or larger weapons like a mace that could shatter a shield, in reality this game would be a fucking mess. think we are still several years away from having that kind of technology.
 
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Pliny_sl

shitlord
14
0
etchazz_sl said:
the physics in gaming doesn't exist yet for this to be possible. although it would be cool if it was possible to create a game where you had to literally block an incoming sword swing with your shield and then jockey for position for a counter strike, or have swords clashing or larger weapons like a mace that could shatter a shield, in reality this game would be a fucking mess. think we are still several years away from having that kind of technology.
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For all the issues the game had generally, I thought the directional attacks and blocking mechanisms in Age of Conan were excellent. It felt like it was a small evolutionary step toward what you describe.
 
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