EQ Never

D

DMK_sl

shitlord
1,600
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Gecko_sl said:
I bet you can think of a lot of hours spent in EQ for silly things that you wouldn't ever do again, though, that seemed very meaningful at the time.
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I don't think we need meaningless time sinks any more. I think MMO's need to go the route of Demon Souls. Making progression less about time and more about skill. If you don't have the skill then it becomes about time (learning mechanics) Obviously the better the loot the harder the dungeon. Away goes meaningless time sinks. Skilled players that don't have as much time are happy and people with heaps of time are also happy. The middle ground between those two will be the middle ground in every MMO anyway.

Mr Creed_sl said:
That's a pretty nice idea, do any games do that? I mostly dont like $15 subs anymore because the time of going steady with one or two games is over and I dont want to put down $15 3-5 times per month for only an hour of checking out what changed. (Luckily most games went F2P anyway, only one causing this "check it out" itch constantly is EVE). I also like the PS2 way of sub giving the xp bonus, so you can check it out anytime and if you notice you want to play a few days throw down the money then (although I never subbed PS2, sticking with Heavy/Infiltrator/sunderer most of the time and maxed those through regular play and micro-transactions).



Depends on your interpretation. For me (and I think most people) P2W means you can buy something for real money that you cannot obtain through play (or only through ridiculous hours, like 20 hours play for a 1 hour consumable or the like). Microtransaction and subscriptions that only buy you time, if reasonable, are fine with most people (League of legends boosts and champions, PS2 subscription and weapons, xp pots in most F2P games are all fine imo).
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I saw a few posts earlier about giving a free trial every 3 months or something but I think a better idea is to have 2 days free every month for ex subscribers. Costs the company barely anything and keeps the monthly sub a viable business model.

Also when it comes to leveling I enjoy the "Do X skill you gain points in X skill" and programs set in place to stop people from macroing. It gets you into the game much quicker whilst still giving you a huge amount of options.
 
Grim1

Grim1

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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DMK_sl said:
I wasn't having a go at you and I apologized if it seemed so. I just that every games a business and they may start with XP potions but where will they stop? It's either have a fully functional good micro-transaction or none at all in my opinion. I'd much rather 15 p/m.
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I can understand the desire for a sub over F2P, but it's just another thing that is going the way of the dinosaur. It's a highly competitive market and the F2P model is winning. Even WoW is being forced to change. The best option is to just make sure that the mmos have good shops. XP potions are the least objectionable offerings in cash shops other than cosmetic items.

Bellringer_sl said:
That's your debate? What is your reasoning for thinking EQN will have XP potions on release? fucking carebares...
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Lol, carebear.
rolleyes.png
 
A

azeth

6,216
8
would anyone in this thread have an issue if your first log in to EQN went something like this:

1.) watch intro
2.) create a character
3.) spawn
4.) have no idea what the fuck to do
5.) start killing stuff that you're able to

sorry to circle back to quest hubs and hand holding.
 
Heallun

Heallun

Lord Nagafen Raider
1,100
1,073
DMK_sl said:
I don't think we need meaningless time sinks any more. I think MMO's need to go the route of Demon Souls. Making progression less about time and more about skill. If you don't have the skill then it becomes about time (learning mechanics) Obviously the better the loot the harder the dungeon. Away goes meaningless time sinks. Skilled players that don't have as much time are happy and people with heaps of time are also happy. The middle ground between those two will be the middle ground in every MMO anyway.
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This doesn't translate well into the mmo-sphere. It'd work well in a buy to play game, but locking out the majority of potential gamers because they are unskilled simply won't work. If things like Monster Hunter Online came released in Western markets I think the market could be primed for a difficult MMO, but as it stands, it simply wouldn't fly.
 
A

azeth

6,216
8
define "skilled" in an MMO atmosphere?

because if your definition includes me button mashing 10 hot keys then count me out.
 
B

Bellringer_sl

shitlord
387
0
Grim1_sl said:
I can understand the desire for a sub over F2P, but it's just another thing that is going the way of the dinosaur. It's a highly competitive market and the F2P model is winning. Even WoW is being forced to change. The best option is to just make sure that the mmos have good shops. XP potions are the least objectionable offerings in cash shops other than cosmetic items.



Lol, carebear.
rolleyes.png
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Le sigh. WTB spelling PST. Look at it this way grim. There are different types of "gamers". Some look at MMOs the same as some single player game that they play casually and have no real care about it. XP potions are developed for them. They want to play casually, but they also want to be the same as those who play a different way. The other type of "gamer" treats the game more like a hobby. It's what they genuinely enjoy doing on their off time. It's what they want to do when they get off work. They are much more competitive about the game and enjoy playing with players with the same mindset. Their goal is to be the best guild on their server, to have the best gear for their class, and to have the best quality of friends in game. They are they ones that form long lasting bonds with in game players. The first group has no urge to form long lasting bonds with in game players.

There are two fundamentally different types of players, games cannot cater to one without alienating the other. Many people from EQ1 were of the latter group. It's very reasonable for those players to want a game that caters to them. If EQN attempts to cater to both types, the game will "fail" along with the other wow clones. Competition is what keeps people playing the longest.
 
Heallun

Heallun

Lord Nagafen Raider
1,100
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Azeth_sl said:
define "skilled" in an MMO atmosphere?

because if your definition includes me button mashing 10 hot keys then count me out.
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Anyone over 150 latency removed from the servers would be a good start :p There are some skill-based challenges even in modern WoW, they're just relegated to heroic raiding and some of the brawlers guild fights. Very tight movement, skill useage, etc. Even the coordination required in Rift raids like HK were pretty skillful, really. It's not competitive street fighter but it's still pretty difficult to execute perfectly with a group. Enough, anyway. Beyond that there are fighting mechanics which could be implimented in the mmo-sphere. Dark Souls has a good example of combat which could possibly be translated into the mmo-sphere (at least in small group play). Monster Hunter Online is another good example of a good mix of tactics and execution involving different attacks, cancels, dodges, etc.

I guess a simple definition would be hitting the right buttons at the right time in coordination with your groupmates? Admittedly I think newer games don't have as many emergent mechanics and aren't as knowledge-heavy as EQ was, but a lot of that has to do with online databases and speed of information travel.
 
D

DMK_sl

shitlord
1,600
0
Heallun_sl said:
This doesn't translate well into the mmo-sphere. It'd work well in a buy to play game, but locking out the majority of potential gamers because they are unskilled simply won't work. If things like Monster Hunter Online came released in Western markets I think the market could be primed for a difficult MMO, but as it stands, it simply wouldn't fly.
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The thing is Demon Souls doesn't lock players out if they aren't immediately skilled enough. You can learn some just learn slower then others. I'm not talking EXACTLY like Demon Souls. My point is that Demon Souls is a game that takes long due to learning the worlds mechanics not due to a constant grind to get certain stats high enough. Also I'm talking about the top end stuff. Everyone that plays an MMO doesn't deserve the right to see all the content otherwise it just trivilizes the content. That's the problem WoW is facing right now.
 
A

azeth

6,216
8
DMK_sl said:
Everyone that plays an MMOdoesn't deserve the right to see all the contentotherwise it just trivilizes the content. That's the problem WoW is facing right now.
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we talked about this a good amount a page ago. i will say i agree with you, but this is a paradigm shift kind of point..
 
Heallun

Heallun

Lord Nagafen Raider
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DMK_sl said:
The thing is Demon Souls doesn't lock players out if they aren't immediately skilled enough. You can learn some just learn slower then others. I'm not talking EXACTLY like Demon Souls. My point is that Demon Souls is a game that takes long due to grind it's due to learning the hard mechanics. Also I'm talking about the top end stuff. Everyone that plays an MMO doesn't deserve the right to see all the content otherwise it just trivilizes the content. That's the problem WoW is facing right now.
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I don't have statistics, but I know most people I've seen attempt to pick up Dark souls / demon souls are damn near unable to make it through the tutorial. For a game that is paid for up front this works well, but with F2P being the new hotness, you're killing the majority of your sales right out of the gate to please the minority of people who appreciate this challenge in all aspects of gaming.

WoW had the same issue. They found that the majority of people were quitting prior to level 10. When they ran surveys on why people were quitting so early they found a large portion of those players were unable to understand and 'get into' the game.

The hard truth is that games aren't made for people on these boards. We're lucky to have EVE, really.

edit: Heroic Raiding is about as hard as it has ever been, really. That and super high level arena (and some brawlers guild fights) are the only earnestly challenging parts of WoW left. I'm glad they even provide that because I honestly doubt they have even a small fraction of the RoI that the raid finder brings in.

I imagine this is kind of like how the UseNet and bbs people felt when AOL went online. And they've been living that nightmare for almost 20 years now.
 
Grim1

Grim1

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
4,918
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Bellringer_sl said:
Le sigh. WTB spelling PST. Look at it this way grim. There are different types of "gamers". Some look at MMOs the same as some single player game that they play casually and have no real care about it. XP potions are developed for them. They want to play casually, but they also want to be the same as those who play a different way. The other type of "gamer" treats the game more like a hobby. It's what they genuinely enjoy doing on their off time. It's what they want to do when they get off work. They are much more competitive about the game and enjoy playing with players with the same mindset. Their goal is to be the best guild on their server, to have the best gear for their class, and to have the best quality of friends in game. They are they ones that form long lasting bonds with in game players. The first group has no urge to form long lasting bonds with in game players.

There are two fundamentally different types of players, games cannot cater to one without alienating the other. Many people from EQ1 were of the latter group. It's very reasonable for those players to want a game that caters to them. If EQN attempts to cater to both types, the game will "fail" along with the other wow clones. Competition is what keeps people playing the longest.
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I agree for the most part but xp potions do nothing but get a player to the endgame faster. Which is why I never use them. I prefer the leveling game more than most mmo's endgames. Racing to get to a grind of dailies and instanced dungeon runs seems kind lame.

But if racing to the endgame is what somebody wants to do then so what? What does it really get them? XP potions don't give players the best gear. The accepted definition of P2W by most of mmo players is being able to buy the best gear available though the cash shop (or worse, the best gear is ONLY available in the cash shop).

I've said all this before though so we're retreading old ground. And as I also said before, there really isn't any point to complaining about xp potions. They are here to stay and most players are fine with them.
 
Heallun

Heallun

Lord Nagafen Raider
1,100
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Azeth_sl said:
thanks for ruining my day, man.
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Lol. I imagine people have just become acclimated to it. Some people bought shit in early EQ era (ebay, playerauctions, etc etc), too. It's just incredibly widespread now. Earning things in games is relegated to basically just Eve, and even that has PLEX.
 
D

DMK_sl

shitlord
1,600
0
Heallun_sl said:
I don't have statistics, but I know most people I've seen attempt to pick up Dark souls / demon souls are damn near unable to make it through the tutorial. For a game that is paid for up front this works well, but with F2P being the new hotness, you're killing the majority of your sales right out of the gate to please the minority of people who appreciate this challenge in all aspects of gaming.

WoW had the same issue. They found that the majority of people were quitting prior to level 10. When they ran surveys on why people were quitting so early they found a large portion of those players were unable to understand and 'get into' the game.

The hard truth is that games aren't made for people on these boards. We're lucky to have EVE, really.

edit: Heroic Raiding is about as hard as it has ever been, really. That and super high level arena (and some brawlers guild fights) are the only earnestly challenging parts of WoW left. I'm glad they even provide that because I honestly doubt they have even a small fraction of the RoI that the raid finder brings in.

I imagine this is kind of like how the UseNet and bbs people felt when AOL went online. And they've been living that nightmare for almost 20 years now.
Click to expand...
As I've said I'm not talking exactly like it and I'm also referring to extreme end game not making it that hard from the beginning.
 
Heallun

Heallun

Lord Nagafen Raider
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Which is essentially what WoW has done. And most people on this board absolutely hate it for it.
 
Abefroman

Abefroman

Naxxramas 1.0 Raider
12,597
11,941
So I take it that all the stuff about "it's the journey" and " leveling should be longer" and "the game shouldn't start at max level" was all bullshit. What people really want is a huge advantage for the amount of time they play a game and people buying XP boosts will nullify that advantage.
 
Heallun

Heallun

Lord Nagafen Raider
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It's similar to kids brought in boarding schools. They defend the system of abuse and it makes them stronger compatriots through shared suffering. :p
 
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