EQ Never

Dizzam_sl

shitlord
247
0
*shrug* if there's one thing I hate it's an underpopulated newbie area. If you think about it, it is the only real choice. Given the fact that their levelling scheme discourages the creation of alts, there won't be many new characters entering the world. Focusing them all in one place is not only good for the devs (less resources spent on low level content creation) it's good for the players in this instance.
I disagree. I was often alone when creating new characters in EQ or WoW, but it didn't matter because that early in the game you don't need to group. Having different starting cities adds a huge amount of immersion and depth to character creation and beyond. Each starting city has its own culture and "feel" to it. Think about the difference between creating a barbarian to play in snow-covered newbie zones and creating a troll to play in the swamps. Creating new characters of different races often led to whole new experiences.

I do agree that it makes life easier for the devs, which is why they will do it this way. It's a huge copout though. Newbie areas don't have to be complex or even big. They could have different starting cities, with very few merchants etc., that feed into the same areas if they are really that concerned about it. However, with EQN, the "it creates more work for the devs" excuse is going to get old really fast. If you aren't going to add great features that require a little more content creation (e.g. different starting cities), then why do we keep hearing about how helpful Landmark will be in making EQN?

I could go on and on and on about how a single starting city is a horrible design decision--understanding, of course, that it's only my opinion. Something is seriously wrong when you go from every race having their own starting city in EQ -> 2 starting cities in EQ 2 -> 1 starting city in EQN. This is also a great example of how they are going about EQN entirely wrong from a lore perspective. You have the opportunity to "reboot" the lore and make any changes that you want and you decide to write it in such a way that everyone ends up friends and everyone ends up starting in the same city? Garbage.
 

Quaid

Trump's Staff
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For every one of you, there is one of me.

Who, every time he started a new alt, got a port directly to Freeport.

I'm not levelling up in the underpopulated deserts that were Toxx, Innothule, Feerott, Butcherblock, Misty, and Everfrost just because it felt better from some immersion/RP perspective. Fun > immersion, and levelling up alone in an MMO ain't fun. It didn't lead to new experiences, because after level 15 you were naturally filtered into the mid level xp zones anyway. The only thing it did was make you learn a new town (one that you'd probably never return to after level 20) and xp for 6 hours in a zone with different flavour than the next.
 

Dumar_sl

shitlord
3,712
4
For every one of you, there is one of me.

Who, every time he started a new alt, got a port directly to Freeport.

I'm not levelling up in the underpopulated deserts that were Toxx, Innothule, Feerott, Butcherblock, Misty, and Everfrost just because it felt better from some immersion/RP perspective. Fun > immersion, and levelling up alone in an MMO ain't fun. It didn't lead to new experiences, because after level 15 you were naturally filtered into the mid level xp zones anyway. The only thing it did was make you learn a new town (one that you'd probably never return to after level 20) and xp for 6 hours in a zone with different flavour than the next.
Ilovedstarting characters in deserted starting cities or playing in newbie zones way late at night and hardly seeing anyone. Why? Because when youdidsee someone, it made you wonder what they were doing, or why they were on at 2am too. Usually those kind of meetings became the best online friendships.


Immersion = Fun
 

Syringed_sl

shitlord
104
0
I disagree. I was often alone when creating new characters in EQ or WoW, but it didn't matter because that early in the game you don't need to group. Having different starting cities adds a huge amount of immersion and depth to character creation and beyond. Each starting city has its own culture and "feel" to it. Think about the difference between creating a barbarian to play in snow-covered newbie zones and creating a troll to play in the swamps. Creating new characters of different races often led to whole new experiences.

I do agree that it makes life easier for the devs, which is why they will do it this way. It's a huge copout though. Newbie areas don't have to be complex or even big. They could have different starting cities, with very few merchants etc., that feed into the same areas if they are really that concerned about it. However, with EQN, the "it creates more work for the devs" excuse is going to get old really fast. If you aren't going to add great features that require a little more content creation (e.g. different starting cities), then why do we keep hearing about how helpful Landmark will be in making EQN?

I could go on and on and on about how a single starting city is a horrible design decision--understanding, of course, that it's only my opinion. Something is seriously wrong when you go from every race having their own starting city in EQ -> 2 starting cities in EQ 2 -> 1 starting city in EQN. This is also a great example of how they are going about EQN entirely wrong from a lore perspective. You have the opportunity to "reboot" the lore and make any changes that you want and you decide to write it in such a way that everyone ends up friends and everyone ends up starting in the same city? Garbage.
With Landmark, you'd think they'd release it early, tell the fans to make their own racial city hubs, pick the best ones via fan vote, give the makers in-game titles/flashy shit/IRL prizes then call it a day. It'd be almost effortless advertisement for their new games and everyone would be happy.

At least with EverQuest 2, they had the excuse of the world going full cataclysmic so everyone was a refugee pouring into one of two starting areas.
 

Quaid

Trump's Staff
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Ilovedstarting characters in deserted starting cities or playing in newbie zones way late at night and hardly seeing anyone. Why? Because when youdidsee someone, it made you wonder what they were doing, or why they were on at 2am too. Usually those kind of meetings became the best online friendships.


Immersion = Fun
See, I preferred being in Gfay or EC where I knew there were easy low level groups to be had, and i could burn my way through to 20+. I didn't really find it valuable to seek out friendships in the low levels. Chances are I would not be in their level range within the week anyway.
 

Dizzam_sl

shitlord
247
0
For every one of you, there is one of me.

Who, every time he started a new alt, got a port directly to Freeport.

I'm not levelling up in the underpopulated deserts that were Toxx, Innothule, Feerott, Butcherblock, Misty, and Everfrost just because it felt better from some immersion/RP perspective. Fun > immersion, and levelling up alone in an MMO ain't fun. It didn't lead to new experiences, because after level 15 you were naturally filtered into the mid level xp zones anyway. The only thing it did was make you learn a new town (one that you'd probably never return to after level 20) and xp for 6 hours in a zone with different flavour than the next.
I don't think the 1:1 thing holds true; it would be interesting to see a poll on this. Regardless, I understand your point.

I always found leveling up the first few levels in EQ in the nearest newbie zone to be more effective/fun than trying to find a port/group anyway. I didn't hang around just to role play with myself. This was even more true in WoW, where you could easily level faster in the nearest newbie zone than you could find a way to a more populated area.

The one city thing doesn't solve all the population problems either. The first few weeks it will probably be overcrowded. The same will be true anytime they start a new server.
 

supertouch_sl

shitlord
1,858
3
For every one of you, there is one of me.

Who, every time he started a new alt, got a port directly to Freeport.

I'm not levelling up in the underpopulated deserts that were Toxx, Innothule, Feerott, Butcherblock, Misty, and Everfrost just because it felt better from some immersion/RP perspective. Fun > immersion, and levelling up alone in an MMO ain't fun. It didn't lead to new experiences, because after level 15 you were naturally filtered into the mid level xp zones anyway. The only thing it did was make you learn a new town (one that you'd probably never return to after level 20) and xp for 6 hours in a zone with different flavour than the next.
You must have played long after the game's release because I don't remember a time when those places were deserted.

Anyway, it sounds like they're trying to cut corners with a lot of these design decisions. That's not a good thing.
 

Quaid

Trump's Staff
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Ah okay see that may be where you and I differed. I rolled a Barbarian, an Erudite, a Qeynosian, a Dwarf, a Troll, and a Freeport Human all to somewhere between level 8 and 15. Freeport was the only newbie zone that felt even sort of vibrant. Freeport itself was very interesting with the competing factions within. It was a port city with 'easy' access to Faydwer. It backed on to two adjacent xp zones, Nro and EC, that had very different flavours. Players gathered in the nearby tunnel to conduct trade, and because of the loose factions and geographical centrality of the city, you saw all kinds of interesting races. Landmarks and camps had names and identities... Orc camps, dervish camps, shady swashbuckler... It was just a very rich experience.

As opposed to Halas... Empty, only barbarians around, or Innothule, same story. Sure, EQ had a lot of starting zones... But 80% of them were poorly done ghost towns.
 

ZyyzYzzy

RIP USA
<Banned>
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Ya sounds like you are talking about way after original EQ. I remember Everfrost, Inn swamp, Ferrott with a decent amount of people.
 

Quaid

Trump's Staff
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You must have played long after the game's release because I don't remember a time when those places were deserted.

Anyway, it sounds like they're trying to cut corners with a lot of these design decisions. That's not a good thing.
I started September 27th, 1999
 

Lunis

Blackwing Lair Raider
2,334
1,601
I've yet to see an alternative to the trinity system that actually works. GW2 was an aggro jumping mess that just wasn't fun. I remain extremely skeptical that SoE will find a solution.
 

Dumar_sl

shitlord
3,712
4
Ah okay see that may be where you and I differed. I rolled a Barbarian, an Erudite, a Qeynosian, a Dwarf, a Troll, and a Freeport Human all to somewhere between level 8 and 15. Freeport was the only newbie zone that felt even sort of vibrant. Freeport itself was very interesting with the competing factions within. It was a port city with 'easy' access to Faydwer. It backed on to two adjacent xp zones, Nro and EC, that had very different flavours. Players gathered in the nearby tunnel to conduct trade, and because of the loose factions and geographical centrality of the city, you saw all kinds of interesting races. Landmarks and camps had names and identities... Orc camps, dervish camps, shady swashbuckler... It was just a very rich experience.

As opposed to Halas... Empty, only barbarians around, or Innothule, same story. Sure, EQ had a lot of starting zones... But 80% of them were poorly done ghost towns.
Well, I think you're missing the point kinda, or specifically the context ofwhyFP felt vibrant. It didn't feel vibrant in a vacuum: a big reason it felt alive was because Grobb and Oggok may have been more empty. FP can't feel like a trade city or a Mos Eisley if it's theonlycity, only if it believably sits at some crossroad from other, less traveled to cities.

Going to FP from most starting cities was a pretty big deal in the early levels, and that was a very important concept to the vibrant feeling felt when you saw other characters there.
 

Dizzam_sl

shitlord
247
0
I would also point out that there are easy ways to fix the population problems. If there are multiple cities, then people like me are happy and people like Quaid can still find his port to busier areas if he wants. If there is a single city, I've lost my preferred way to play. This game is suppose to be about choices right?

Even better, they could let every race choose to either start in their own city or start in Qeynos as one of the Combine refugees. Then people like Quaid don't even have to find a port, they can just start there.
 

Quaid

Trump's Staff
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Ya sounds like you are talking about way after original EQ. I remember Everfrost, Inn swamp, Ferrott with a decent amount of people.
I played from quite early on...

In cities like Erudin, Oggok, Grobb, Halas, Rivervale, and Kaladim I very distinctly remember seeing 5-10 newbies running around smacking fire beetles, with a couple Druids afk within the city walls.

Compared to Freeport, where I remember a constant trickle of high level players passing by me at the WFP gates, and 20+ people at the NFP bank at all times in addition to the normal newbie zone population. Hell NFP was even a place people conducted auctions for quite a while since the zone pop was generally so high. Then you go out into EC and the zone population is 100+ with people actually running Orc 1 + 2 groups? With waiting lists?

Maybe Everfrost and Innothule were like that in the first month after release, but I assure you I played before RoK and NEVER saw that be the case.
 

Dumar_sl

shitlord
3,712
4
But if he has that option of convenience to start where he pleases, then there will be no dangerous trek to FP 3.0. And so in another 10 years, we won't have any epic stories from Quaid about barely getting to FP 3.0 alive.

Games have lost that player narrative quality.
 

Dizzam_sl

shitlord
247
0
But if he has that option of convenience to start where he pleases, then there will be no dangerous trek to FP 3.0. And so in another 10 years, we won't have any epic stories from Quaid about barely getting to FP 3.0 alive.

Games have lost that player narrative quality.
Agreed.

However, I would rather people have thechoiceto start in Qeynos than force everyone to start there.
 

Quaid

Trump's Staff
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But if he has that option of convenience to start where he pleases, then there will be no dangerous trek to FP 3.0. And so in another 10 years, we won't have any epic stories from Quaid about barely getting to FP 3.0 alive.

Games have lost that player narrative quality.
The run on my bard (second character after I ditched my level 6 barb shaman) from Qeynos to Freeport is up there with defeating the Emerald Weapon in FF7, and beating Battletoads and Zelda II, for best gaming moments ever.

Edit: dirty lie, bard wasn't my second character, it was just the second one that I cared to remember. Levelled a DElf Mage, a dwarf pally, and an erudite wiz in there somewhere, each to sub level 15.

Edit 2: Fuck AND a halfling warrior and a troll SK... I had some serious ADD or something when I was 16 heh.
 

Dumar_sl

shitlord
3,712
4
The run on my bard (second character after I ditched my level 6 barb shaman) from Qeynos to Freeport is up there with defeating the Emerald Weapon in FF7, and beating Battletoads and Zelda II, for best gaming moments ever.
Yup, likewise.

He had a choice to go to FP, but he couldn't start there. If you as a player want to go somewhere, you should have that freedom. However, with that freedom, comes risk, and with chancing that risk, comes those 'best gaming moments ever'.

This is what modern game designers donotfucking get at all.
 

ZyyzYzzy

RIP USA
<Banned>
25,295
48,789
The run on my bard (second character after I ditched my level 6 barb shaman) from Qeynos to Freeport is up there with defeating the Emerald Weapon in FF7, and beating Battletoads and Zelda II, for best gaming moments ever.

Edit: dirty lie, bard wasn't my second character, it was just the second one that I cared to remember. Levelled a DElf Mage, a dwarf pally, and an erudite wiz in there somewhere, each to sub level 15.
Ruby weapon was hard; Emerald weapon was faceroll easy in FFIIIIIII.
 

Quaid

Trump's Staff
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I mean, you guys are right of course. Obviously more starting cities would give the world a more immersive feeling and add story to the world... I just think that as far as longevity goes in a game with no alts, the single starting city is the best solution to ensure players continue to have an engaging newbie experience years down the road. The most starting cities I could see being plausible in EQN is like... 2...