EQ Never
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Vitality
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I'm fine with this as long as the permanence of class choice doesn't force templated playstyle and abilities can be universally allocated.
Forced roles work in Mobas but serve as a severe limitation in MMO's
I want to be a paladin too but if all I get is "Lol Paladin noob SK's are better tanks" in groups I'll be sad.
Yeah I remember reading that a year ago or whenever. It's basically the only thing I'm interested in. I'm ignoring all the real world/story brick shit until they actually show something; frankly I think it's all hype and they won't be able to deliver on that. Class design is something they can easily deliver on. So I'm interested in that.
Didn't they say you could swap out classes whenever you want or something like that?
Heard you can swap out abilities when not in combat but not classes. They also said they are working on a middle ground between socketing on the fly and returning to a town to do it.
Mr Creed
Too old for this shit
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The MOBA comparison is sound as far as the number of active abilities and gameplay is concerned, but the vast multiclassing options add a big GW1/CCG vibe as well. With that background, giving the finger to pvp balance is the best choice they can make. Otherwise pve abilities will be pretty bland because ae mez and the like is a big no-go in "balanced" pvp.
What makes that different than any other MMO? You seem very focused on theorycrafting situations where one class won't be as good as another "forcing" you to play that class. It won't be "paladins sux" it will be more like "Holy Shield sucks use shield block". Classes will just be slot templates there will be nothing stopping you from leveling a warrior then a vanguard then a paladin removing ALL the paladin abilities and slotting them up with warrior/vanguard abilities.
How can someone say Paladins suck when you have nothing in common with a paladin other than a class name.
Now I'm sure the weapons will play a big part in defining a class as they said a warrior wielding a 2 hander will have different attacks than another class. But, the main thing is that want you to design your own class.
Of course there will be cookie cutter builds and they expect that, but having the ability to specialize your entire raid to kill a dragon that normally would destroy you seems really cool to me.
Vitality
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There's multi classing apparently, where if you have a high enough rank in your wizard skills you can slot teleport on your warrior. However the spell has a base cost so it would be immensely expensive for a warrior to cast. (enforcing hybridization of gear)
This opens up some flexibility in the class system, however weapon set skills are class based (ala Guildwars 2)
Interested in seeing how they balance this type of system, as I've said before, gw2 and eso both had trouble in this department when metas were established and classes were expected to bring very particular kits or suffer flaming.
Edit for the post above this one: I'm not saying distinct classes are bad, I'm saying every game that has done similar systems to this has suffered very blatant class balancing issues that removed a good portion of ability diversity at a competitive (endgame) level.
Mr Creed
Too old for this shit
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Was that way in most MMOs even without the multiclassing. Maybe current WoW is good at balancing it without making all tanks too same-ish? I havent followed it enough for the last 5-8 years, but back then the best tank pendulum was going and forth, especially paladins were heal/cleanse bishes instead of fighters. At least in EQN you are supposed to have more leeway to grab the "required" abilities and build them into your prefered setup.
Lleauaric
Sparkletot Monger
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Heres the post.
I'm going to take a leap here and assume that most of you are familiar with League of Legends or some other MOBA (DoTA, Smite, HoN, etc).
I've seen article after article out there picking away at what was said during the class panel and trying to guess how the AI (as smart or as dumb as it is to be tuned) will make up for the lack of a dedicated tank, healer, dps, (crown control) combination. And, the first thing that keeps jumping to my mind is the MOBA genre and how fights work within it.
You still have tanks. You still have supports. You still have dedicated DPS. However, the AI (or other opponents) know enough to not just run face first into the "tanks". But, part of the kit of a good tank (or bruiser) is their disruption ability. Now, the AI has to think about whether it's a better decision to damage the person they can reach, or to take a lot more damage (and risk dying) before getting to a more desirable target.
Now, let's take this one step further and quit saying the word "tank" and saying the word "melee". And instead of healer let's say "support". Now, we have the same group, but the AI has to decide between a melee who can do decent amounts of damage, but is in their face, or a ranged who can do higher damage, but requires gap closing. Or chase the support who can constantly kite them while the melee and ranged are doing damage.
This is what I imagine the "destruction" of the holy trinity to be while still maintaining player roles. I think it's just a progression of AI - sure, some creatures may be stupid enough to just attack the first thing they see, but if you were fighting human-equivalent thinking NPCs, you would expect them to be smart enough to assess threat and invalidate the idea of a true tank. And, without a true tank, I don't think you're going to see the idea of a true healer. Support skills that limit mobility, etc will become much more important when there is no longer one damage sponge to be clicked on.
edit- partial confirmation by/u/SmokejumperSOE: Nailed it! You are on exactly the right path here. Now start to consider the potential of how the AI can interact that way and what it does for group dynamics and you'll start seeing why we think this is going to be a BLAST. (Not that we're a MOBA, of course. Just being clear.
Double Edit- Just to be clear my point is we will still have roles, but they will be redefined. Your "tank" will be more about disruption - with smarter opponents a meatwall really serves no purpose; why would any mild-intelligence creature attack it instead of bypassing it unless the meatwall was given real threat when avoided? Your healer will still heal, but dedicated heals become less important and support skills become more important. If you want to read up on how toxic dedicated healers can be to a game I advise reading from a real designer and not me (Morello Talks Soraka and Healer Classes).
Vitality
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So a Paladin can grab Lifetap or Siphon strength from the SK tree if it becomes the best Aggro Generating ability? I doubt it if their "Light vs Dark" faction system is a limiting factor.
I get that other games have been plagued with these issues, I'm in here trying to figure out what EQ:N is doing differently from other multi-class games. Right now it looks like ESO squished together with GW2 and FFXIV. All of which had class favoritism towards certain roles, which rendered other classes less desirable and nearly hardlocked people into re-rolling after they found out their "Warrior" couldn't tank bosses because it didnt have "Paladin Specific" cooldowns.
Edit for the above post: Thanks for the link, this is a similar mindset that GW2 adopted. Bunker Guardians filled the gap and became a standardized meta to round out the trinity because they were great at healing and tanking much like certain champions in MOBA's are nearly required to complete team compositions.
(Lulu top, Thresh Braum Morgana Support, Tristana Kogmaw AD, lee sin elise eve jungle) etc.
TL;DR Let me build my own class with every skill in the game and instead decide my role with passives and supporting effects from the gear I choose. Refrain from locking me into a role based on my main class choice.
Lleauaric
Sparkletot Monger
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I dont think aggro is going to bounce like that.
They are trying to make an AI that isnt reactive to the moment, but has a memory and goals. Heres how I picture a fight going.
So how do you approach that? Each individual npc has its own specific agenda. Each action by the party will promote a different reaction from the NPCs.
They are trying to make an AI that isnt reactive to the moment, but has a memory and goals. Heres how I picture a fight going.
- Group enters goblin workshop. Goblin guards rush out and attack. Goblin scientists start hurrying to finish giant goblin robot.
- Guards have 3 primary objects. #1 Keep adventurers away from scientists. #2 Stay alive #3 Kill intruders. There are 3 types of guards. Melee, Ranged and healers.
- The melee has a goal of attacking the biggest threat. It looks at threat as in order of priority
A. Who is closest to the scientists,
B. Who is attacking its Healers
C. Who another Melee isnt attacking
D. Who is attacking it
E. Who is attacking ranged - The Ranged have the similar goals, but it wants to protect Scientists then Healers, then Melee, They will move to other areas to "kite" people who attack them.
- Healers main object is to Heal Scientists, heal/buff guards taking damage, Damage Adventurers in scientist area, buffl ranged.
- Scientists will build robot or throw AE molotov cocktails at people who get too close. If they complete death robot, it becomes primary focus and highest priority of all Goblins.
So how do you approach that? Each individual npc has its own specific agenda. Each action by the party will promote a different reaction from the NPCs.
Other than the fact that I hate smart goblins, I think that example is pretty awesome.
Vitality
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I'd tag the scientists to draw ranged and melee aggro (Pop defensive cooldowns), have the support caster CC the guards, send the dps on the healers and LOS the ranged mobs behind something nearby after melee finish healers.
Considering primary threat will be on me because I'm hitting the scientists and are very close to the robot dodging molotovs.
Exploiting the AI scripting is the first thing people will figure out in a system like this to trivialize it.
**I'd rather see the AI determine priority targets based on skill choices** Goblin Armsman Shouts:"We's Smart we get Vitality, the rest of them will be easy afterwards!"
For instance, they know that I'm a paladin taking primarily Cleric skills so they rush me first because I'm the healer, and the rest of the group will be forced to Peel and what not.
Can we see examples of dynamic AI (non scripted) before we start having fantasies of perfectly crafted AD&D encounter controlled by your favorite neckbeard dungeon master friend?
Vitality
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Not sure whats worse, crafting imaginary dynamic AI encounters that do not exist. Or thinking of ways to exploit the AI on imaginary dynamic AI encounters that do not exist.