EQ TLP - Vaniki (Level-Locked Progression)

alavaz

Trakanon Raider
2,001
713
DBG probably prefers you buy Krono too, they make 20% more on that deal. since whoever bought that krono paid 18
I have always wondered that too. On the surface it seems like it would be a loss for DBG if someone bought krono on the aftermarket vs. either paying them a sub or buying krono from them.

However, if I were to buy it aftermarket and consume it for a sub, it does remove the liability from their books. I'm no accountant though so I have no idea what's best overall.
 

Elderan

Blackwing Lair Raider
590
407
Sold over 130 krono to a krono lord on ectunnel website for a negotiated discount. If you have a ton of krono you want to get rid of and dont mind sacrificing a bit of money, that might be a solution if theyre open to it. Only thing I kick myself for is not stripping my character when I knew I was done for a while. Could have sold that stuff in SOV, come back later and buy gear thats more powerful that cost less than what I sold it for. Never mind that coming back to mischief just makes me gag a bit about how much I would have to play just to catch up as a Warrior.

I've just always been curious how much Krono is actually just recycled krono, or "Old money" so to speak.

All I can say is people need to be careful when buying krono in bulk (100+) from people who dont know what they are doing.
 
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Ritley

Karazhan Raider
15,720
34,246
The EQ economy has always been about making platinum and fucking wood elves.
 
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Louis

Trakanon Raider
2,836
1,105
Serious Q: If DPG created a TLP server that:

  1. Allowed one character per person
  2. Limited EQ to one character per IP
  3. Banned all VPNs
Do you think that'd be feasible to do and would significantly limit boxing on that server?
Hotspots pretty much negate most of that. Obviously you would not be hotspotting 6+ toons, but people would still end up boxing to a degree.

With the recent hardline stance they have had against MQ users over the last 6 months I think the numbers of armies you see will be greatly minimized a year from now.
 

Ikkan

Molten Core Raider
271
406
Serious Q: If DPG created a TLP server that:

  1. Allowed one character per person
  2. Limited EQ to one character per IP
  3. Banned all VPNs
Do you think that'd be feasible to do and would significantly limit boxing on that server?
I think if they enforced it then it could limit boxing somewhat, but there are relatively simple ways to get around these things. It really just comes down to enforcement. Aradune is a good example - how can a dude be 54 boxing Tormax, get caught on video, and nothing happens? Because they don't care enough to do anything about it. All GMs need to do is bounce around a few zones and see when people are clearly breaking the rules and act on it.
 
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yerm

Golden Baronet of the Realm
6,001
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The problem with even some actually enforced actually one box server is it fails to address the real problem that caused the use of boxes in so many cases. If someone cannot just load a box to farm stuff or play alone, are they going to suck it up and group? If nobody wants to help you with whatever you are trying to do, is that likely to change because that person can no longer self sufficient play using boxes?

My opinion is that a nobox server even perfectly and fully enforced would still suck. There might be some instances where it goes well, like 80+ missions seeing more inclusion. Sure. This would be far outweighed by people frustrated at not feeling like they can accomplish stuff, stress over perma group reliance, shitty pug drama, etc etc. The result will be people who can no longer log in and play by themselves and needing to play with others choosing option C, don't play. The shitfucks that nobody wants to group with will still be shitfucks with or without boxes.
 
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Korzax Stonehammer

Blackwing Lair Raider
732
397
I don't think it'd be financially viable at all. That's why EQ emulator servers exist as a containment center for people who actually want to play one character and have a staff be overbearing on enforcing it. P99 is currently the only 1box server I can think of, and it's more than enough for the 1Box experience for most.

As long as Darkpaw has limited CS resources (hiring a new employee or finding a contractor working for $15/hr is costly in today's market, too, so keep that in mind) they will never be able to truly enforce it. They cannot rely on automation to detect boxing, it is mostly a visible / player report sort of issue.

You'd also have to disallow instancing so boxing is easier to watch - and if you do, the server would be dead on arrival if you don't rotate raid content or tweak gameplay to allow for the loot to be more evenly distributed and/or make raid content appear more frequently.

An emulator is able to spend development time for free on all of the above, and thus would be the better option in every case for the ruleset you're describing.

Unrelated sort of, but I'm interested to see how Warmane (the WOTLK emulator) handles Blizzard's WOTLK Classic coming out soon... they see 30-40k online, and have the dungeon finder, whereas Blizzard's version does not which may appeal to some people. Warmane also has QOL that Blizzard will not. Warmane has a lot less lawsuits and sexual abuse allegations than Blizzard, but is run by shady individuals. It'll be interesting to see if people stick on Warmane over Blizzard's version.
Warmane. Now I know a servers name, thanks.
 

Tuco

I got Tuco'd!
<Gold Donor>
45,435
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Hotspots pretty much negate most of that. Obviously you would not be hotspotting 6+ toons, but people would still end up boxing to a degree.

With the recent hardline stance they have had against MQ users over the last 6 months I think the numbers of armies you see will be greatly minimized a year from now.
Yeah I was thinking about that too. Most EQ players have a couple phones they could access. I wonder how much data EQ uses up and how cheap of a plan you could get to run EQ.
 

Louis

Trakanon Raider
2,836
1,105
Yeah I was thinking about that too. Most EQ players have a couple phones they could access. I wonder how much data EQ uses up and how cheap of a plan you could get to run EQ.
It wont dent most data plans. I was playing from work on one for a while when the addiction was really hitting and it was negligible.
 

xmod2

<Gold Donor>
726
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It's another case of the pros being able to easily circumvent it, and the regular player being the one affected.

If the goal is to stop professional boxer armies, automated detection won't work, since they'll just subvert it. They would need to a) care about it and b) dedicate staff to stopping it. As mentioned above, it's easy to detect/stop, they just don't actually give a shit.
 
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hory

Bronze Baronet of the Realm
1,641
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If you have ATT for 10 bucks a moth you can get a block of 5 ip addresses. super easy to get around.
 
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alavaz

Trakanon Raider
2,001
713
They could mostly prevent boxing via code if they had the talent - which they very clearly don't. But I think it would be cheaper to just do some Rudy Giuliani stop and frisk on truebox servers. Oh well neither are likely.
 

Secrets

ResetEra Staff Member
1,877
1,880
They could mostly prevent boxing via code if they had the talent - which they very clearly don't. But I think it would be cheaper to just do some Rudy Giuliani stop and frisk on truebox servers. Oh well neither are likely.
The best prevention for boxing is a combination of 3 things, which are also the core principles for preventing hacking in online games: Deter, detect, and prevent.

If you only automatically enforce via code, you're going to have issues with people slipping through the cracks. Having a single failure-prone defense isn't going to stop people.
You need straight-up prevention. This could come in the form of the prevention they currently have with regards to truebox - if it's too easy to bypass, people will do so though. But that could also be used to your advantage.

If someone is 12-boxing from the same network, and on separate PCs per your design, you have an attack vector for potential cheaters to use. Cheaters/hackers simply modify the code that makes you unable to multibox on the same PC, and then you can multibox on the same PC. That is currently going on, by the way.

When people do that, you can take advantage of the fact that players are just looking for the bare minimum entry point - they get in game on a single machine. That single machine has /many/ different ways of determining if it's the same machine. This is where detection comes in.

Detection can come in the form of additional layers of defense on top of the existing 'bare minimum' entry point. You /want/ players to bypass that minimum protection, so that you can detect them bypassing said protection. How, you ask, if the game already is known to most due to MacroQuest 2's intense documentation? Well, MacroQuest is open source. You know the exact functions the MQ2 developers know of. You also may know that MacroQuest developers know of changes to the netcode layer, so you could attach additional detection to existing parts of the netcode layer. MacroQuest's developers are focused on structural changes to individual classes or functions they automatically and programmatically track, not additional functionality added to existing functions in the netcode layer.

For instance, you could have a simple packet that has garbage data in it, such as the PlayerProfile packet on incoming, and add a special size check on the generic packet handler.

Logic could go as follows:
If the packet is less than x size, then call "AnticheatFunction". Else, call normal function.

Due to how the packet handler is optimized, that sort of change could go undetected for months. It would require static analysis of every part of the binary - and if you're an MQ2 developer and there's not an obvious string that says "SendComputerName()" or "GetAdapterAddressInUse()", "GetExternalIPAddress()" or something along those lines, and it obfuscates and loads a string that references a Windows system library, you're going to think nothing of those changes. I'd say a good 80% of the EQ binary is actually known functionality wise, but there's a 20% that just hasn't been touched as it's not relevant to automation.

So if you were to call that hidden code path and send data on behest of the server (whether that request be a manual GM trigger or automated), you could query the machine for specific information that is not normally queried for, and that sort of query wouldn't show up consistently on runtime as it's not a normal part of gameplay.

What that means is if you're a common joe cheater, you're not going to see that level of detection or even think if it being an issue. And those that already know how the game works in assembly would be struggling to figure out what you added, especially if you hid it alongside another refactor - like the optimization passes EQ has been doing. They actually added detection for piggy zone in that update and restricted when the client actually tries to send zoning requests without the server's implicit permission. Requests that fall outside of that scope don't fail, but instead get logged for CSR review.

That brings us to the next part: Deterrence. Daybreak has no obligation to act on a cheater immediately. In the case of most EQ players that use cheats, they're 20+ year customers that would never play again if their main account got banned. And if they get that ban wrong, it looks even worse and could lead to a drastic drop in revenue. They have less incentive to ban 12 accounts financially. However, not acting on cheaters immediately allows them to have manual review and risk assessment performed by a human being behind the scenes.

They may be willing to let someone who has consistently spent money on their subscription, marketplace, and more within the last x months slide where as an account paid for with only Krono get banned. On top of that, having a large sample size of detections allows them to fine-tune and ensure their detections work.

Ban waves are the biggest form of deterrence EQ has. Losing your character in EQ is devastating, especially for folks that rely on their characters farming or selling items or services for Krono, as it directly impacts their enjoyment or personal black market revenue. They may be less willing to spend in the future, they may not even come back at all if 18+ accounts are all suspended. Having the flexibility to determine when you actually ban a player means that you can hide your detection methods, have players speculate, and then it's possible that if you do too many at once, they may be able to triangulate what actually resulted in a ban.

For instance, the very latest banwave was due to MySEQ. They have an existing system which MQNext normally hides its injected modules and processes from. However, most players also run MySEQ alongside that program, and MySEQ was not protected in comparison to MacroQuest. So players that didn't run MacroQuest, but ran MySEQ were hit with 7+ day bans. They simply checked for the process name. It's another way that a clever game developer can punish people that think they're getting away with cheating - most of them aren't the ones developing said cheat, so they use whatever they're given to them and don't think outside the box on what results in a ban.

On top of this, there's still other avenues that aren't the game. The Launchpad collects information about your PC, what accounts you've logged into using it, and associates all accounts on that launcher to your hardware ID. Additionally, the login server sends blanket information about your PC to the loginserver. This actually causes the loginserver to fail in some cases. If you've ever 'timed out' on relogging, it's because the hardware information packet was sent before the password or token information.

That means that if they catch one account cheating, they now have a unique identifier that persists across the entire game world. And if that identifier is used ingame, but not on the launcher or the loginserver (the loginserver screen is it's own isolated module from the eq binary) that becomes a vector in which they can track the timestamps of usage versus the timestamp ingame.

I've actually described several ways above that they could detect multiboxing on the same PC with the existing technology they have. They have to also be willing to do it; games are a business and if you remove your customers too frequently, they will be less willing to spend again on your product. That's why they prefer to suspend. Repeat offenders are rare unless they know they can get away with another offense. I've seen that myself on emu, with Rise of Zek having initially 5% of the active accounts cheating on launch, and by the time the last expansions (Luclin, PoP) hit, that number was just an occasional 1 or 2 person that just started playing.

Striking fear into players works. Right now, people feel like they can get away with multiboxing as there has been no repercussions for doing so. If even a few of them got hit, they'd probably start thinking twice. And especially those who are wary about using cheats to begin with would stop using them. It's statistically what I have found on emu, and I am sure Daybreak has seen similar results, though can't always act as quick as they need a consistent revenue stream for their parent company and their investors.

It's why I stated above that emus are the way to go for enforcing boxing rules consistently - they have no financial obligation to keep you around. They can be ruthless and invasive when it comes to determining you multiboxing, they have no investors or shareholders and operate on their pride of removing undesirable players from their game.

Daybreak can't afford that luxury. I think they're doing the best they can given the parameters and likely agile scheduling they have to work with internally. It's hard running a business in addition to maintaining a game's integrity, but I think they've managed to do extremely well so far.
 
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Daidraco

Golden Baronet of the Realm
9,230
9,335
The best prevention for boxing is a combination of 3 things, which are also the core principles for preventing hacking in online games: Deter, detect, and prevent.

If you only automatically enforce via code, you're going to have issues with people slipping through the cracks. Having a single failure-prone defense isn't going to stop people.
You need straight-up prevention. This could come in the form of the prevention they currently have with regards to truebox - if it's too easy to bypass, people will do so though. But that could also be used to your advantage.

If someone is 12-boxing from the same network, and on separate PCs per your design, you have an attack vector for potential cheaters to use. Cheaters/hackers simply modify the code that makes you unable to multibox on the same PC, and then you can multibox on the same PC. That is currently going on, by the way.

When people do that, you can take advantage of the fact that players are just looking for the bare minimum entry point - they get in game on a single machine. That single machine has /many/ different ways of determining if it's the same machine. This is where detection comes in.

Detection can come in the form of additional layers of defense on top of the existing 'bare minimum' entry point. You /want/ players to bypass that minimum protection, so that you can detect them bypassing said protection. How, you ask, if the game already is known to most due to MacroQuest 2's intense documentation? Well, MacroQuest is open source. You know the exact functions the MQ2 developers know of. You also may know that MacroQuest developers know of changes to the netcode layer, so you could attach additional detection to existing parts of the netcode layer. MacroQuest's developers are focused on structural changes to individual classes or functions they automatically and programmatically track, not additional functionality added to existing functions in the netcode layer.

For instance, you could have a simple packet that has garbage data in it, such as the PlayerProfile packet on incoming, and add a special size check on the generic packet handler.

Logic could go as follows:
If the packet is less than x size, then call "AnticheatFunction". Else, call normal function.

Due to how the packet handler is optimized, that sort of change could go undetected for months. It would require static analysis of every part of the binary - and if you're an MQ2 developer and there's not an obvious string that says "SendComputerName()" or "GetAdapterAddressInUse()", "GetExternalIPAddress()" or something along those lines, and it obfuscates and loads a string that references a Windows system library, you're going to think nothing of those changes. I'd say a good 80% of the EQ binary is actually known functionality wise, but there's a 20% that just hasn't been touched as it's not relevant to automation.

So if you were to call that hidden code path and send data on behest of the server (whether that request be a manual GM trigger or automated), you could query the machine for specific information that is not normally queried for, and that sort of query wouldn't show up consistently on runtime as it's not a normal part of gameplay.

What that means is if you're a common joe cheater, you're not going to see that level of detection or even think if it being an issue. And those that already know how the game works in assembly would be struggling to figure out what you added, especially if you hid it alongside another refactor - like the optimization passes EQ has been doing. They actually added detection for piggy zone in that update and restricted when the client actually tries to send zoning requests without the server's implicit permission. Requests that fall outside of that scope don't fail, but instead get logged for CSR review.

That brings us to the next part: Deterrence. Daybreak has no obligation to act on a cheater immediately. In the case of most EQ players that use cheats, they're 20+ year customers that would never play again if their main account got banned. And if they get that ban wrong, it looks even worse and could lead to a drastic drop in revenue. They have less incentive to ban 12 accounts financially. However, not acting on cheaters immediately allows them to have manual review and risk assessment performed by a human being behind the scenes.

They may be willing to let someone who has consistently spent money on their subscription, marketplace, and more within the last x months slide where as an account paid for with only Krono get banned. On top of that, having a large sample size of detections allows them to fine-tune and ensure their detections work.

Ban waves are the biggest form of deterrence EQ has. Losing your character in EQ is devastating, especially for folks that rely on their characters farming or selling items or services for Krono, as it directly impacts their enjoyment or personal black market revenue. They may be less willing to spend in the future, they may not even come back at all if 18+ accounts are all suspended. Having the flexibility to determine when you actually ban a player means that you can hide your detection methods, have players speculate, and then it's possible that if you do too many at once, they may be able to triangulate what actually resulted in a ban.

For instance, the very latest banwave was due to MySEQ. They have an existing system which MQNext normally hides its injected modules and processes from. However, most players also run MySEQ alongside that program, and MySEQ was not protected in comparison to MacroQuest. So players that didn't run MacroQuest, but ran MySEQ were hit with 7+ day bans. They simply checked for the process name. It's another way that a clever game developer can punish people that think they're getting away with cheating - most of them aren't the ones developing said cheat, so they use whatever they're given to them and don't think outside the box on what results in a ban.

On top of this, there's still other avenues that aren't the game. The Launchpad collects information about your PC, what accounts you've logged into using it, and associates all accounts on that launcher to your hardware ID. Additionally, the login server sends blanket information about your PC to the loginserver. This actually causes the loginserver to fail in some cases. If you've ever 'timed out' on relogging, it's because the hardware information packet was sent before the password or token information.

That means that if they catch one account cheating, they now have a unique identifier that persists across the entire game world. And if that identifier is used ingame, but not on the launcher or the loginserver (the loginserver screen is it's own isolated module from the eq binary) that becomes a vector in which they can track the timestamps of usage versus the timestamp ingame.

I've actually described several ways above that they could detect multiboxing on the same PC with the existing technology they have. They have to also be willing to do it; games are a business and if you remove your customers too frequently, they will be less willing to spend again on your product. That's why they prefer to suspend. Repeat offenders are rare unless they know they can get away with another offense. I've seen that myself on emu, with Rise of Zek having initially 5% of the active accounts cheating on launch, and by the time the last expansions (Luclin, PoP) hit, that number was just an occasional 1 or 2 person that just started playing.

Striking fear into players works. Right now, people feel like they can get away with multiboxing as there has been no repercussions for doing so. If even a few of them got hit, they'd probably start thinking twice. And especially those who are wary about using cheats to begin with would stop using them. It's statistically what I have found on emu, and I am sure Daybreak has seen similar results, though can't always act as quick as they need a consistent revenue stream for their parent company and their investors.

It's why I stated above that emus are the way to go for enforcing boxing rules consistently - they have no financial obligation to keep you around. They can be ruthless and invasive when it comes to determining you multiboxing, they have no investors or shareholders and operate on their pride of removing undesirable players from their game.

Daybreak can't afford that luxury. I think they're doing the best they can given the parameters and likely agile scheduling they have to work with internally. It's hard running a business in addition to maintaining a game's integrity, but I think they've managed to do extremely well so far.
Been a while since I touched P99. I swear I heard a rumor that you developed something that is supposedly invasive, past the point that a company like DB could do - but an Emu, similar to what you said in your last paragraph - if you want to play it, you have to use it. Fuck you. Is that true? I just assumed DB could do something similar, and all you had to do was hit yes/no and if you hit no, you couldnt play.
 

Los_Necros

Trakanon Raider
334
144
The best prevention for boxing is a combination of 3 things, which are also the core principles for preventing hacking in online games: Deter, detect, and prevent.

If you only automatically enforce via code, you're going to have issues with people slipping through the cracks. Having a single failure-prone defense isn't going to stop people.
You need straight-up prevention. This could come in the form of the prevention they currently have with regards to truebox - if it's too easy to bypass, people will do so though. But that could also be used to your advantage.

If someone is 12-boxing from the same network, and on separate PCs per your design, you have an attack vector for potential cheaters to use. Cheaters/hackers simply modify the code that makes you unable to multibox on the same PC, and then you can multibox on the same PC. That is currently going on, by the way.

When people do that, you can take advantage of the fact that players are just looking for the bare minimum entry point - they get in game on a single machine. That single machine has /many/ different ways of determining if it's the same machine. This is where detection comes in.

Detection can come in the form of additional layers of defense on top of the existing 'bare minimum' entry point. You /want/ players to bypass that minimum protection, so that you can detect them bypassing said protection. How, you ask, if the game already is known to most due to MacroQuest 2's intense documentation? Well, MacroQuest is open source. You know the exact functions the MQ2 developers know of. You also may know that MacroQuest developers know of changes to the netcode layer, so you could attach additional detection to existing parts of the netcode layer. MacroQuest's developers are focused on structural changes to individual classes or functions they automatically and programmatically track, not additional functionality added to existing functions in the netcode layer.

For instance, you could have a simple packet that has garbage data in it, such as the PlayerProfile packet on incoming, and add a special size check on the generic packet handler.

Logic could go as follows:
If the packet is less than x size, then call "AnticheatFunction". Else, call normal function.

Due to how the packet handler is optimized, that sort of change could go undetected for months. It would require static analysis of every part of the binary - and if you're an MQ2 developer and there's not an obvious string that says "SendComputerName()" or "GetAdapterAddressInUse()", "GetExternalIPAddress()" or something along those lines, and it obfuscates and loads a string that references a Windows system library, you're going to think nothing of those changes. I'd say a good 80% of the EQ binary is actually known functionality wise, but there's a 20% that just hasn't been touched as it's not relevant to automation.

So if you were to call that hidden code path and send data on behest of the server (whether that request be a manual GM trigger or automated), you could query the machine for specific information that is not normally queried for, and that sort of query wouldn't show up consistently on runtime as it's not a normal part of gameplay.

What that means is if you're a common joe cheater, you're not going to see that level of detection or even think if it being an issue. And those that already know how the game works in assembly would be struggling to figure out what you added, especially if you hid it alongside another refactor - like the optimization passes EQ has been doing. They actually added detection for piggy zone in that update and restricted when the client actually tries to send zoning requests without the server's implicit permission. Requests that fall outside of that scope don't fail, but instead get logged for CSR review.

That brings us to the next part: Deterrence. Daybreak has no obligation to act on a cheater immediately. In the case of most EQ players that use cheats, they're 20+ year customers that would never play again if their main account got banned. And if they get that ban wrong, it looks even worse and could lead to a drastic drop in revenue. They have less incentive to ban 12 accounts financially. However, not acting on cheaters immediately allows them to have manual review and risk assessment performed by a human being behind the scenes.

They may be willing to let someone who has consistently spent money on their subscription, marketplace, and more within the last x months slide where as an account paid for with only Krono get banned. On top of that, having a large sample size of detections allows them to fine-tune and ensure their detections work.

Ban waves are the biggest form of deterrence EQ has. Losing your character in EQ is devastating, especially for folks that rely on their characters farming or selling items or services for Krono, as it directly impacts their enjoyment or personal black market revenue. They may be less willing to spend in the future, they may not even come back at all if 18+ accounts are all suspended. Having the flexibility to determine when you actually ban a player means that you can hide your detection methods, have players speculate, and then it's possible that if you do too many at once, they may be able to triangulate what actually resulted in a ban.

For instance, the very latest banwave was due to MySEQ. They have an existing system which MQNext normally hides its injected modules and processes from. However, most players also run MySEQ alongside that program, and MySEQ was not protected in comparison to MacroQuest. So players that didn't run MacroQuest, but ran MySEQ were hit with 7+ day bans. They simply checked for the process name. It's another way that a clever game developer can punish people that think they're getting away with cheating - most of them aren't the ones developing said cheat, so they use whatever they're given to them and don't think outside the box on what results in a ban.

On top of this, there's still other avenues that aren't the game. The Launchpad collects information about your PC, what accounts you've logged into using it, and associates all accounts on that launcher to your hardware ID. Additionally, the login server sends blanket information about your PC to the loginserver. This actually causes the loginserver to fail in some cases. If you've ever 'timed out' on relogging, it's because the hardware information packet was sent before the password or token information.

That means that if they catch one account cheating, they now have a unique identifier that persists across the entire game world. And if that identifier is used ingame, but not on the launcher or the loginserver (the loginserver screen is it's own isolated module from the eq binary) that becomes a vector in which they can track the timestamps of usage versus the timestamp ingame.

I've actually described several ways above that they could detect multiboxing on the same PC with the existing technology they have. They have to also be willing to do it; games are a business and if you remove your customers too frequently, they will be less willing to spend again on your product. That's why they prefer to suspend. Repeat offenders are rare unless they know they can get away with another offense. I've seen that myself on emu, with Rise of Zek having initially 5% of the active accounts cheating on launch, and by the time the last expansions (Luclin, PoP) hit, that number was just an occasional 1 or 2 person that just started playing.

Striking fear into players works. Right now, people feel like they can get away with multiboxing as there has been no repercussions for doing so. If even a few of them got hit, they'd probably start thinking twice. And especially those who are wary about using cheats to begin with would stop using them. It's statistically what I have found on emu, and I am sure Daybreak has seen similar results, though can't always act as quick as they need a consistent revenue stream for their parent company and their investors.

It's why I stated above that emus are the way to go for enforcing boxing rules consistently - they have no financial obligation to keep you around. They can be ruthless and invasive when it comes to determining you multiboxing, they have no investors or shareholders and operate on their pride of removing undesirable players from their game.

Daybreak can't afford that luxury. I think they're doing the best they can given the parameters and likely agile scheduling they have to work with internally. It's hard running a business in addition to maintaining a game's integrity, but I think they've managed to do extremely well so far.

How sure are you that the last banwave was for myseq though. I know tons of people who use myseq and only like 2 people got hit with a banwave last time and only 1 of those people had never downloaded everhack/mq2 supposedly. I just haven't heard any big uproar of the non mq2 / everhack for suspensions. If they actually did 1 entire banwave dedicated to myseq... then I don't know how me and every single boxer I know avoided getting hit. We ONLY run showeq and nothing else. No one in any of the "non mq2 / everhack" boxers that i know, got hit by any banwave, at all. Literally no friend of mine who 100% doesn't use everhack/mq2 but 100% uses showeq got suspended. Not a single one.

It still might be possible but it sure seems strange that none of these waves things ever hit me or anyone I know who 100% doesn't use the other cheats besides showeq.
 

Rajaah

Honorable Member
<Gold Donor>
11,318
14,997
Seems like Vaniki is losing raiders at an alarming rate unless they make some changes in the next week.

Not even sure I'll play on it myself now, might do the launch rush for fun and krono-farming (and the 40-50 rush since it'll be inside of a month's sub) but I don't think I'll stick around beyond that. It'll be interesting to see how it plays out going forward / how they improve on it with the next one.

Mischief seems to still be the gold standard for recent TLPs and it sucks that I pretty much missed that one.
 

Arbitrary

Tranny Chaser
27,151
72,018
I like the premise but the execution I don't understand. The challenge should have been to do the bosses of each era while under leveled with some extra bits and bobs (double loot, fast exp) to put the emphasis on doing the content rather than the gearing/leveling. Alright bitches, can you do Quarm at level 60? If you can do Quarm at level 60 we'll give you a sweet looking mount.

It's just not all there.
 
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Secrets

ResetEra Staff Member
1,877
1,880
Been a while since I touched P99. I swear I heard a rumor that you developed something that is supposedly invasive, past the point that a company like DB could do - but an Emu, similar to what you said in your last paragraph - if you want to play it, you have to use it. Fuck you. Is that true? I just assumed DB could do something similar, and all you had to do was hit yes/no and if you hit no, you couldnt play.
Technically, Daybreak has that in their Terms of Service. By using their software, it's implied that you consent to having that information collected. It pops up when you log into the game for the first time.

Collection and Use of Information about Your Computer​

We may collect certain information about your computer, such as the IP address, type of video card, size of hard drive, etc., and monitor the software and data on your computer, as reasonably necessary to assist us in optimizing the performance of our games and websites. We may also monitor the processes on your computer as reasonably necessary to detect unauthorized modifications to our game software and/or the use of software that enables or facilitates any kind of cheating.

That is enough to cover their asses legally. If you decline on the launcher, you can't play the game and the launcher closes.

They can also terminate your account for any reason - and they don't have to disclose the reason you were terminated. A fair comparison would be a restaurant kicking you out, and not telling you the reason why. They have the right to refuse to service you, just like you don't have to bake a cake for a gay couple in the US as a Christian baker.

Everyone collects information that is borderline personally identifying these days, even with the EU's GDPR in effect. Chat logs, running processes, hardware information, IP addresses, geolocations, analytics information (ie; how often you log into a game and at what hours, where you spend your Daybreak Currency, etc)

I'd be more worried about companies misusing your info, not collecting it. There are no guarantees P99 will handle your information better than Daybreak - worse, bigger companies can avoid penalties for misusing it by being too big to care about fines or regulations. See: Facebook / Cambridge Analytica. I'd trust Rogean to handle it better provided you didn't piss him off in some way... like RyanTwin20 did recently by calling Rogean's employer.

For the richest of the rich companies (ie; once you get past the 10 million net revenue mark), everything is legal if it only results in a small fine.
And as for P99's information gathering (they don't track much more than confirmed detections these days, Rogean had to roll back a lot of the invasive techniques), they could argue you're breaking someone else's terms of service to play on their service, thus you were operating illegally by accessing P99 and P99 had no wrongdoing.

How sure are you that the last banwave was for myseq though. I know tons of people who use myseq and only like 2 people got hit with a banwave last time and only 1 of those people had never downloaded everhack/mq2 supposedly. I just haven't heard any big uproar of the non mq2 / everhack for suspensions. If they actually did 1 entire banwave dedicated to myseq... then I don't know how me and every single boxer I know avoided getting hit. We ONLY run showeq and nothing else. No one in any of the "non mq2 / everhack" boxers that i know, got hit by any banwave, at all. Literally no friend of mine who 100% doesn't use everhack/mq2 but 100% uses showeq got suspended. Not a single one.

It still might be possible but it sure seems strange that none of these waves things ever hit me or anyone I know who 100% doesn't use the other cheats besides showeq.
I am 100% certain because emulator folks who were simply running MySEQ on the test server to collect spawn information were hit with bans, and have otherwise not used those accounts for any other purpose, and MQ2 was not loaded. Additionally, accounts that were running MQ2 on test that were run by separate emu developers 8 months prior were also banned around the same time. They only had MQ2 loaded to collect spawn data on the test server and parse NPC statistics. But still, they had MQ2 loaded. I believe they had a build of MQ2 from EQMule or Maudigan which didn't have the protections MQNext has.

This banwave coincided with Accendo posting a warning on the EQ forums about people ceasing cheating. Nearly every time they have done a massive banwave, developers normally warn people that they are going to do it beforehand.

There is a function in the game client that compares the name of running 32-bit processes with an internal blacklist, and 'MySEQ' is one of the 'blacklisted' processes. You would have to place a breakpoint on the client when it is scanning. On TLP servers, this happens about 5 minutes into being logged in. On Aradune's launch, it was within 60 seconds of loading in. Now they're checking that data on CSR request, and (unconfirmed) if an account is flagged for suspicious behaviors serversided, on initial load into a zone.

It is also well documented that Daybreak doesn't ban every offender at once. When they do a ban wave, they pick a select group of offenders to keep the ban reason a mystery. They may hold on to cheaters from one wave to another to further obscure the ban reason. It's a smart strategy to avoid people from immediately knowing the method in which they detected a cheat. The statement you just mentioned above is proof of that working.
 
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Kaines

Potato Supreme
16,905
46,100
Technically, Daybreak has that in their Terms of Service. By using their software, it's implied that you consent to having that information collected. It pops up when you log into the game for the first time.


That is enough to cover their asses legally. If you decline on the launcher, you can't play the game and the launcher closes.

They can also terminate your account for any reason - and they don't have to disclose the reason you were terminated. A fair comparison would be a restaurant kicking you out, and not telling you the reason why. They have the right to refuse to service you, just like you don't have to bake a cake for a gay couple in the US as a Christian baker.

Everyone collects information that is borderline personally identifying these days, even with the EU's GDPR in effect. Chat logs, running processes, hardware information, IP addresses, geolocations, analytics information (ie; how often you log into a game and at what hours, where you spend your Daybreak Currency, etc)

I'd be more worried about companies misusing your info, not collecting it. There are no guarantees P99 will handle your information better than Daybreak - worse, bigger companies can avoid penalties for misusing it by being too big to care about fines or regulations. See: Facebook / Cambridge Analytica. I'd trust Rogean to handle it better provided you didn't piss him off in some way... like RyanTwin20 did recently by calling Rogean's employer.

For the richest of the rich companies (ie; once you get past the 10 million net revenue mark), everything is legal if it only results in a small fine.
And as for P99's information gathering (they don't track much more than confirmed detections these days, Rogean had to roll back a lot of the invasive techniques), they could argue you're breaking someone else's terms of service to play on their service, thus you were operating illegally by accessing P99 and P99 had no wrongdoing.


I am 100% certain because emulator folks who were simply running MySEQ on the test server to collect spawn information were hit with bans, and have otherwise not used those accounts for any other purpose, and MQ2 was not loaded. Additionally, accounts that were running MQ2 on test that were run by separate emu developers 8 months prior were also banned around the same time. They only had MQ2 loaded to collect spawn data on the test server and parse NPC statistics. But still, they had MQ2 loaded. I believe they had a build of MQ2 from EQMule or Maudigan which didn't have the protections MQNext has.

This banwave coincided with Accendo posting a warning on the EQ forums about people ceasing cheating. Nearly every time they have done a massive banwave, developers normally warn people that they are going to do it beforehand.

There is a function in the game client that compares the name of running 32-bit processes with an internal blacklist, and 'MySEQ' is one of the 'blacklisted' processes. You would have to place a breakpoint on the client when it is scanning. On TLP servers, this happens about 5 minutes into being logged in. On Aradune's launch, it was within 60 seconds of loading in. Now they're checking that data on CSR request, and (unconfirmed) if an account is flagged for suspicious behaviors serversided, on initial load into a zone.

It is also well documented that Daybreak doesn't ban every offender at once. When they do a ban wave, they pick a select group of offenders to keep the ban reason a mystery. They may hold on to cheaters from one wave to another to further obscure the ban reason. It's a smart strategy to avoid people from immediately knowing the method in which they detected a cheat. The statement you just mentioned above is proof of that working.
And this is why I prefer Emu servers. With the VAST diversity in rule sets regarding boxing, I can easily find a server with the rule sets that allow for the type of boxing I want to do at that time. Far easier than trying to "cheat" on a server that doesn't allow for my particular taste in boxing.