EVE Online

ronne

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With a nice isthar fit you can get like 70-80m isk/hr just spinning in belts in a decent null system.

It's kind of the baseline for all economic activity these days - does what you're doing out earn an isthar AFK ratting in a belt someplace? If not, why are you doing it etc.
 
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Borzak

Bronze Baron of the Realm
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If you haven't played in years you can now swap jump clone implant sets with no cooldown if the sets are at the same location. Just pay the fee and done instantly.

CCP released a video and blog on the new SKINR skin making deal coming out. As expected looks like they are going to milk the most out of it every step of the way, plex, skills etc...They have a "vision" of someone investing skills and plex to make skins they can sell. Character sheet says I have 500 skins now and use about 2 of them.

Picked up a number of MCTs last week with plex while they were 40% off to have them handy if needed. So all accounts now plex up for at least a year and enough MCT to use whatever else on those accounts when needed. So time to not log in for a while lol.
 
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Aaron

Goonsquad Officer
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It's been a week since I downloaded the client and apart from spending about an hour in station just opening up a shit ton of new windows (many of which are pretty good, such as helping you to find content to do), all I've done is spend about 10 minutes buying a mining frigate and mining some veldspar just for the gits and shiggles of it lol. Too much going on in my life at the moment to be able to spend any time in this - I'm good if I can get 1-2 hours of gaming in per week now - and as with all MMOs, everything takes time. So I can't really be bothered to spend any money or ISK to sub for Omega. But I might come back to this for a month or two at some later date when I have more time.

Still, in the end, it's not the game it was back in 2003-6 when I was playing it most. Good to see that there are lots who play though. I wonder how many people are still playing that started in 2003...
 

Borzak

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For the 20th anniversary CCP said that about a dozen people made their account the first few days and still played and had paid for a sub/plexed the entire time. There was someone last week or so that posted on reddit that had 450m SP and had been subbing since day one and never used an injector. There's more people online now than a while back during scarcity when they really tried to correct the Rorq issue. Where a Rorq could mine enough to buy 500 plex for a month sub in 4 hours or so. The market became flooded with ore and such stuff so they scaled that down and nerfed it and redid industry so that a lot of stuff cost a lot more now. Then when they changed to Amazon Web Services for chat they turned off local for a while (blackout) and that didn't help have people want to undock in some places they couldn't tell how many or who was in local. The new expansion coming up not sure how that will work out, some time in June.

You can do a lot with an overview and UI now you couldn't before. Maybe watch a video on it. Break it down and have seperate windows for stuff.
 
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Sylas

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Then when they changed to Amazon Web Services for chat they turned off local for a while (blackout) and that didn't help have people want to undock in some places they couldn't tell how many or who was in local.

Topic keeps coming up in these threads, particularly the Ashes of Creation and Pax Dei threads, about play to crush and shit and people keep comparing those games to Shadowbane and claiming they are doomed to fail, so im gonna wax nostalgic a bit about Eve and what makes (made?) it work.

"local" was always looked at as a problem or something that needed to be changed or gotten rid of (like in WH space) but people who think that really do not understand how games like this work and why Eve is the only successful PVP game or what is needed for "play to crush" to actual work in a video game.

There are two primary reasons why Eve succeeded while all other games of this style (from shadowbane and on) have failed. One is risk assessment, ie "local", and the other is size of the game world.

Eve is designed in such a way that as long as you are paying attention the "hunted" can always escape from the "hunter". This is from several factors primarily of which is "local" provides instant intelligence about your surroundings and enables the player to make risk decisions based on that intelligence, before the aggressor has an opportunity to react. It puts every single player on a level playing field with the same base line intelligence. From there each player is also equipped with a directional scanner (like ranger tracking from EQ) which gives you an additional tool to help manage the risk. As you step up your activities into more complex/higher population activities you have access to additional resources such as corp/alliance chats, scouts, etc. Now in many cases the "hunted's" activity is designed to be so boring/relaxing/tedious that they occasionally let their guard down. This is what allows hunters the opportunity for success and is part of the balancing act between wolves and sheep.

Even activities like "logout" camping still provide the hunted the opportunity to escape from danger thanks to e-warp mechanics. That means that with an ounce of preparation and paying attention to the game you are guaranteed to never, ever, ever get ganked in Eve online. The sheep can always evade the wolves, and by and large most players recognize this, realize the implication that they are responsible for their losses, they accept responsibility for their failings and seek to improve to prevent future losses, which is why the playerbase as a whole doesn't cry, whine for nerfs, etc or shrivel up and die just because they get killed like what happens in many other pvp / play to crush style games.

You cannot have a game with real risk/loss and allow situations where players can experience unavoidable loss. All deaths must be avoidable if the player must pay a penalty upon death (loss of gear/items/money/durability/whatever death mechanic you have). This is such a basic concept that everyone instinctually understands as common sense yet still every game developer other than Eve Online implements no local/no intelligence tools and adds in some sort of "rogue" class with complete stealth/invisibility and give them bonuses to alpha strike/1 shot kill abilities and then lets them roam and around with zero counters or ability to avoid and then wonder why the player base keeps shrinking.

The second reason, Size, is just as important, not from an individual stand point, but from an overall game health perspective. While Eve started with like 5k zones and has doubled that or more over the years, they can do so because it's space and space is completely fucking empty with basically 2d cosmos/nebula art as background image which allows you to create basically infinite amount of zones. Note that a "zone" in Eve online is in many ways, larger than entire MMO game worlds of other games.

Fantasy MMOs however always insist on hand crafted worlds/zones and thus are infinitesimally tiny in comparison. Until procedural generation came around it was impossible to create enough zones to support a Fantasy PVP MMO and now, even with procedural generation, nobody is actually using it correctly to create worlds large enough to support play to crush PVP.

Fantasy worlds are, fucking tiny. miniscule. Take EQ or WoW for example. both of which may "feel" like they are large worlds but the truth is that they can be crossed from one side of the world to the other, without mounts/fast travel mechanics, in an hour or less. 1 hour to walk from one side of the world to the other, avg movement speed of a human being is 3mph so congrats, Norrath or Azeroth are literally 3 miles wide. That isn't' a world. it's not even a city. it's barely even a town, with a like a single stop sign at the sole intersection because there isn't enough traffic to justify putting in a stop light. Like 1 gas station and 1 diner. and maybe 30 houses. That's how big those "worlds" are so it's no wonder when one side ends up "winning."

When dealing with such tiny "worlds" then it becomes absolutely trivial for a small faction to "take over" and "win" the game world. How many people do you think it would take to "take over" a 3 by 3 mile "town"? like 5-10 dudes with a couple of shotguns could take over and rule that town indefinitely (until outside forces ie federal law enforcement arrived). When you add in mounts/fast travel it becomes even more trivial for a small group to end up controlling the entire map. The ability to teleport your forces practically anywhere on the map in 10-15 minutes allows the winning side to dominate the entire server and prevent anyone from challenging them. This leads to stagnation and of course server death.

Fantasy MMO worlds aren't big enough for the logistics of running/controlling/ruling the zones to be large enough to force control out of the hands of a small few and into a collection of officers/leaders to allow human nature to have a chance to take over and allow for internal conflicts, betrayal, etc to happen which is how you keep things fresh. This is why in Eve you can have alliances of tens of thousands of players fighting other alliances of tens of thousands of players and half the time defeat comes from within, internal squabbling and betrayal rather than outside conquest. Nobody is too big to fail but everyone is too big for a one man show to run everything, shit must be delegated, people must be trusted to get things done and either they do or they don't, they are held responsible for it or they take off with half the guild bank's assets in some grand heist. The game world is so fucking huge that wars take weeks if not months of planning and logistics, movement of troops and assets into position in staging areas.

The game world is so big that, in order to actually control large parts of it, you have to become so large yourself that you inevitably collapse from your own bloated bureaucracy and infighting. No in game organization can survive the number of ego's needed to herd the amount of cats you need to actually own that much of the game world.

so yeah, TLDR: Risk Assessment and size are the two ingredients needed for play to crush style PVP games to succeed. Until recent advances in procedural generation, it's been impossible for fantasy MMOs to make their worlds big enough to cover the size requirement, and even now they are still going for hand crafted tiny towns rather than actual worlds. also nobody designing these games understands risk assessment since they all think "local" was a mistake and keep thinking about the "correct" way to implement rogues. Ashes of Creation is at least delaying rogues until after alpha 2 but I doubt they will learn the lesson they need in time. Pax Dei I am hoping will step up their use of procedural generation and exponentially increase the size of their world
 
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Borzak

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He biggest issue I had when local was flipping out some days your alt next to you in a system wouldn't show up in local but others would. Then the next day nobody would show and then maybe the third everyone including your alt would show. I spend a lot of time in wormholes but at least the rules for local don't change on a near hourly basis and that was what was happening.
 

Borzak

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I looked tonight. Oldest characater was made Feb. of 2008. Caldari Achura Monk because they came out ahead in learning days. I had an older character at one time but I sold it.

I guess because of the various changes over the years I have a skill with a few points in that I don't have the prerequisites, fighter hangar management. Glad learning skills went away and got a refund and the end of clone insurance. I didn't have enough Sp to really impact me as much as some.

I haven't looked but in the area I started seemed like there was a lot of stuff going on. Lot of belts had people mining and can flipping. The inside of stations seemed more "alive" for some reason before they redid them. The days of mine enough to make a ship for yourself.
 

Cynical

Canuckistani Terrorist
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Pretty much at the fuck this shit stage again.

I accomplished a lot this 3-4 months though, went from broke, to having a fleet of my own with a Rorqual and 7 Hulks. (I said I wasn't gonna do it, I went and fucking did it anyway)

People that play this game ruin it though, I can only stand so much of the drama and bullshit. I'm pretty sure the long term players of this game have some weird fucking form of PTSD, and the shit is infectious. I died in EQ earlier, and I almost flipped the fuck out, until I remembered it doesn't matter, only EvE Online lets you lose shit 10x the $ value of your subscription.

If anyone wants to help me win EvE, I accept Kronos lol
 

ronne

Nǐ hǎo, yǒu jīn zi ma?
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Go fly with FRT or any of the Chinese corps and bask the glorious racism of Eve
 

Borzak

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One note in the upcoming expansion patch notes which came out today. Ane carriers are getting a boosh/jump module to move cubaps and caps 250km in direction they are pointed. The new structures I really don't know enough on that part of the game on resource stuff, but it looks like a giant isk, sp, and resource sink and I don't know if it will help or not.

change.png
 

Borzak

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Guess CCP couldn't decide on the new ships. Skills they are listed as Upwell only and on the new ship tree they are listed as Edencom.

Free 7 days plex in new eden store today.

Skin design has umpteen skills listed with 17m SP in the section. Someone said yesterday from the video CCP did the amount of plex to make a skin and sell it would start at around 250m isk. At least you can turn them off, oops no you can't any longer that setting was removed.

On stream last week CCP said they had a term already. TTP. Time till Penis.
 
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ronne

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Back in the day it was those goddamn Russian plex campers. I thought the Chinese had their own server just for themselves?

They still do, but they don't play on it cause there's no one to RMT all their ISK/PLEX to
 
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Borzak

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Haven't looked at the skinr. Just found out today you pay plex to make the skin, buy the mats with isk, and then if you sell it there's a 30% tax of the plex. So if you sell for 10plex you get 7plex. Nothing like getting it coming and going.
 

Borzak

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Eve being Eve. Today they patched in the market/paragon to sell skins. Already at least one skin for a quadrillion isk or so if you bought the plex to buy it. Plus a 30% plex tax if you bought it. Assuming there's no listing fee, I hope.
 

ronne

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The entire SKINR thing seems very DOA to me?

The way the thing is structured with fees/taxes I don't think it ever makes sense to buy a skin if you see one you like? Just purchase the materials and re-create it yourself?