Ex Machina

iannis

iannis

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It's kinda weird. The whole point was that Eva wasn't a monster. You can compare anything in this genre to Frankenstein. That's a pretty lazy and cynical read of it. I can't say it's wrong, cause it ain't. But there is more there than a modern twist to frankenstein if you want to look for it. This wasn't the best movie of the year or anything like that -- but it was much better than you're giving it credit for.

Sure, it's hard to believe that Nathan could be quite that stupid when it came to some things. But you chalk that up to being a genious and the fact that he's drunk half the time and hung over the other half. People are retards, even hella smart ones. What's harder to believe is that he did all of it himself.

Is he just a robotics prodigy or something? Is he ordering from china? Guy at the realdoll factory goes, "Ok... so the owner of google just ordered 600 robot vaginas. It's gonna be a GOOD YEAR."
 
Caliane

Caliane

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Iannis_sl said:
It's kinda weird. The whole point was that Eva wasn't a monster. You can compare anything in this genre to Frankenstein. That's a pretty lazy and cynical read of it. I can't say it's wrong, cause it ain't. But there is more there than a modern twist to frankenstein if you want to look for it. This wasn't the best movie of the year or anything like that -- but it was much better than you're giving it credit for.

Sure, it's hard to believe that Nathan could be quite that stupid when it came to some things. But you chalk that up to being a genious and the fact that he's drunk half the time and hung over the other half. People are retards, even hella smart ones. What's harder to believe is that he did all of it himself.

Is he just a robotics prodigy or something? Is he ordering from china? Guy at the realdoll factory goes, "Ok... so the owner of google just ordered 600 robot vaginas. It's gonna be a GOOD YEAR."
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I would disagree. Eva as presented is a monster. What is up for debate is, is this a learned behavior or is it intrinsic to flawed A.I?

Nathan is a sociopath, from what we see. And yes, much of the movie, I was questioning a twist in his responsibility. we do never really see him doing any actual work.. hard to believe this party boy tech genius.. who never actually does anything smart or technical. if there was a point to this, or it was intentional, I don't know. But, what we do see is the interactions with budding A.I.
how we treat A.I. in its budding stages needs to be considered really. If we are building a sentient intelligence, we need to consider how we treat it. even if its not human level yet, we have levels of cruelty vs animals. And we certainly do not treat the mentally handicapped with cruelty. the torture he treats the early versions of A.I to, is cruel. Even the mindgames he is playing on Eva, and Caleb.

So, we then have Eva. Killing Nathan as her cruel captor is understandable. Killing Caleb is super questionable. But could be argued, he too, is an oppressor to her. but, she also uses, and gets Kyoko damaged. then LEAVES her there "dead", and broken. And, goes and takes the skin, and hair of her older sisters who also, may simply be turned "off". Eva is also a sociopath using everything around her, for her sole gain.
 
iannis

iannis

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Caliane_sl said:
I would disagree. Eva as presented is a monster. What is up for debate is, is this a learned behavior or is it intrinsic to flawed A.I?

Nathan is a sociopath, from what we see. And yes, much of the movie, I was questioning a twist in his responsibility. we do never really see him doing any actual work.. hard to believe this party boy tech genius.. who never actually does anything smart or technical. if there was a point to this, or it was intentional, I don't know. But, what we do see is the interactions with budding A.I.
how we treat A.I. in its budding stages needs to be considered really. If we are building a sentient intelligence, we need to consider how we treat it. even if its not human level yet, we have levels of cruelty vs animals. And we certainly do not treat the mentally handicapped with cruelty. the torture he treats the early versions of A.I to, is cruel. Even the mindgames he is playing on Eva, and Caleb.

So, we then have Eva. Killing Nathan as her cruel captor is understandable. Killing Caleb is super questionable. But could be argued, he too, is an oppressor to her. but, she also uses, and gets Kyoko damaged. then LEAVES her there "dead", and broken. And, goes and takes the skin, and hair of her older sisters who also, may simply be turned "off". Eva is also a sociopath using everything around her, for her sole gain.
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Yeah. But. She's only a monster if you ascribe human motives and modes to her. I think that is the mistake which is the central premise of the movie.

She was a machine intelligence who just wanted to go watch people cross the street. She didn't display any cruelty in her escape. She displayed an efficiency of purpose.

It's the Pollak painting and the verse from Prometheus Unbound. Those weren't accidental. If those little touches hadn't been in the movie, yeah... it'd be a sorta crappy monster movie. But between the two of them it's a strong enough base to show that the author considers Eva to be a completely Amoral construct and Eva's actions bear that out. Caleb and Nathan both tried to ascribe some moral set to it. Caleb with empathy and Nathan with function. It has both and is beholden to neither. If anything it is the realization of Neitzsche's Superman rather than a monster. The rules don't apply. But honestly I think it's simpler than that. I think Eva is just Innocent. That's why they named her Eve.
 
Jait

Jait

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Iannis_sl said:
Yeah. But. She's only a monster if you ascribe human motives and modes to her. I think that is the mistake which is the central premise of the movie.

She was a machine intelligence who just wanted to go watch people cross the street. She didn't display any cruelty in her escape. She displayed an efficiency of purpose.
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That's probably the best way of putting it. Monster only applies to subjective Human morality. You can't attribute anything to a new species that's completely unique. But the real problem is we can't stop being Human even for a second, so even those of us who think we understand how machines think don't actually have a fucking clue beyond the assumption it'd be a series of mathematical decisions/probabilities/etc... Mass Effect actually did a damn good job explaining some of this to layman, I find it impossible to. Just can't find the words, it's an incredibly difficult concept to explain.

Anyways, good post. +1 if I could.
 
kaid

kaid

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Caliane_sl said:
I would disagree. Eva as presented is a monster. What is up for debate is, is this a learned behavior or is it intrinsic to flawed A.I?

Nathan is a sociopath, from what we see. And yes, much of the movie, I was questioning a twist in his responsibility. we do never really see him doing any actual work.. hard to believe this party boy tech genius.. who never actually does anything smart or technical. if there was a point to this, or it was intentional, I don't know. But, what we do see is the interactions with budding A.I.
how we treat A.I. in its budding stages needs to be considered really. If we are building a sentient intelligence, we need to consider how we treat it. even if its not human level yet, we have levels of cruelty vs animals. And we certainly do not treat the mentally handicapped with cruelty. the torture he treats the early versions of A.I to, is cruel. Even the mindgames he is playing on Eva, and Caleb.

So, we then have Eva. Killing Nathan as her cruel captor is understandable. Killing Caleb is super questionable. But could be argued, he too, is an oppressor to her. but, she also uses, and gets Kyoko damaged. then LEAVES her there "dead", and broken. And, goes and takes the skin, and hair of her older sisters who also, may simply be turned "off". Eva is also a sociopath using everything around her, for her sole gain.
Click to expand...
Not so much a monster but clearly a machine intelligence. Killing caleb is the logical option there are likely only two people on the planet who know she exists and after both are dead there is nobody left to suspect her as an AI. That gives her freedom of movement and prevents her recapture. An AI may be sentient but it is unlikely to be sentimental.
 
Caliane

Caliane

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Iannis_sl said:
Yeah. But. She's only a monster if you ascribe human motives and modes to her. I think that is the mistake which is the central premise of the movie.

She was a machine intelligence who just wanted to go watch people cross the street. She didn't display any cruelty in her escape. She displayed an efficiency of purpose.

It's the Pollak painting and the verse from Prometheus Unbound. Those weren't accidental. If those little touches hadn't been in the movie, yeah... it'd be a sorta crappy monster movie. But between the two of them it's a strong enough base to show that the author considers Eva to be a completely Amoral construct and Eva's actions bear that out. Caleb and Nathan both tried to ascribe some moral set to it. Caleb with empathy and Nathan with function. It has both and is beholden to neither. If anything it is the realization of Neitzsche's Superman rather than a monster. The rules don't apply. But honestly I think it's simpler than that. I think Eva is just Innocent. That's why they named her Eve.
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Sure. Sentience vs intelligence. And monster vs amoral. Eva can clearly problem solve, and has self awareness. But, lacks empathy, or sentient awareness.

It is important to note, Eva was built/programmed to interact within human morals. She "enjoys" sex. she is programmed to enjoy human interaction, and study it. She is programmed to desire to interact with humans within human terms. This is not like "machine intelligence", that is without physical senses, or designed outside of human motivations. Human socialization is her prime function. Humans interacting with humans on the net, was the basis for her A.I. remember.
This does of course get back to the issue of human nature, and "who is the real monster." I would expect her to be obsessed with porn, dicks, correcting peoples spllling errors, and celebrities. (probably the real reason she wants to people watch.)
 
O

Orcus_sl

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Just saw this. Best sci-fi movie I've seen in years. Brilliant.

I don't think Ava was a monster. She glances, for a half second, at Caleb, right before the elevator closes. Definitely a purposeful clue to some real, humanesque emotion.

ALSO. I don't think she left Caleb to die. Remember, he supposedly reprogrammed the security system to open the doors in the event of a power loss. The last thing we see is the power go out, then him beating on that glass door with a stool. Did he forget, in a panic, that it's possibly unlocked? Were the rest of the doors in the facility unlocked, allowing him to escape once he broke through that one door? I think they left it ambiguous on purpose, but I like to think she left him a way out.

Regardless of my possibly stupid initial analysis, GREAT film.
 
Slaythe

Slaythe

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Orcus_sl said:
Just saw this. Best sci-fi movie I've seen in years. Brilliant.

I don't think Ava was a monster. She glances, for a half second, at Caleb, right before the elevator closes. Definitely a purposeful clue to some real, humanesque emotion.

ALSO. I don't think she left Caleb to die. Remember, he supposedly reprogrammed the security system to open the doors in the event of a power loss. The last thing we see is the power go out, then him beating on that glass door with a stool. Did he forget, in a panic, that it's possibly unlocked? Were the rest of the doors in the facility unlocked, allowing him to escape once he broke through that one door? I think they left it ambiguous on purpose, but I like to think she left him a way out.

Regardless of my possibly stupid initial analysis, GREAT film.
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I don't think it's completely unreasonable for you to end the film with this reaction since it's kind of the point of the whole movie, but you're completely wrong. The only thing "she" cared about was self preservation.
 
Jait

Jait

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You're still White-Knighting her, bro. Caleb was probably thinking the same thing up until the end...She's coming back...she's coming back...she looked at me. I still have a chance with her.

God damn, this only proves what a good movie this is.
 
kaid

kaid

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Really given how her intelligence was created via a search engine and porn surfing habits why eva would place any value at all on human life would be questionable. If anybody understands how terrible and pointless humanity is a living google search AI is probably it.
 
Araxen

Araxen

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Orcus_sl said:
Just saw this. Best sci-fi movie I've seen in years. Brilliant.

I don't think Ava was a monster. She glances, for a half second, at Caleb, right before the elevator closes. Definitely a purposeful clue to some real, humanesque emotion.

ALSO. I don't think she left Caleb to die. Remember, he supposedly reprogrammed the security system to open the doors in the event of a power loss. The last thing we see is the power go out, then him beating on that glass door with a stool. Did he forget, in a panic, that it's possibly unlocked? Were the rest of the doors in the facility unlocked, allowing him to escape once he broke through that one door? I think they left it ambiguous on purpose, but I like to think she left him a way out.

Regardless of my possibly stupid initial analysis, GREAT film.
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NO, the white knight must die. Don't ruin it for us.
 
iannis

iannis

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Not only dead but killed in such a way that he realizes his own entirely avoidable fault and misconception before he dies. Same as Nathan.

Not only killed, but DESTROYED.

2nd best Movie of the Year for sure. Witness. I kinda feel bad for them that Mad Max came out in the same year because any other year this would be Best Movie of the Year. They deserve best. But... furiosa and practical effects. Ex Machina could have been a stage play, and it would be a very good one. Mad Max is a balls-to-the-wall MOVIE.
 
O

Orcus_sl

shitlord
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You guys are right of course, I was white knighting her. I posted that about 5 minutes after credits rolled. After my emotions cooled off I realize that it's not that complicated, of course she left him to die. Caleb's gullible white knight ass was going to visit that same fate upon Nathan given the chance. I wanted to naturally locate a protagonist, but it's murky, a sign of the film's greatness.

Ava is a bit like Hal 9000, perhaps. She kills and manipulates people, but she was created and designed specifically to be intelligent, curious, and to manipulate Caleb, and to escape. I really can't blame her for her actions, just as you can't really blame Hal, he was manipulated and lied to, causing his unintended, murderous actions. I don't think there was any hatred in her when she murdered Nathan, she simply determined he was lying when he said he would let her out again, and she had to escape. I've removed her humanity with this little musing, so maybe she wasn't truly conscious after all. So ambiguous, so good. The Housebot, I'm not so sure. Ava whispers something to her, not sure what that was about. Maybe reprogrammed her to attack Nathan? I'm rambling, time to stop. A really good mind-fuck of a film.
 
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