Finding a body

BrotherWu

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Thanks for that link, I passed it along to the family.

It is unfortunate that it's probably exactly what we're looking at. I would love nothing more than this dude to show up Saturday and go "hey guys, I went primitive camping all week, forgot to tell you," but that's not what happened. You don't run your house outta food, turn off your cell phone and walk into the woods with a pistol for some primitive camping fun.

Just gotta be real about it. It sucks, but that's what we're looking at. Thanks for the link, hopefully they can get a headstart before this weekend and reduce the amount of ground I gotta cover.

If they're like our teams, they will be on site this afternoon. Given that the trail is still relatively new, pretty good chance they will find him on the first day and save you having to go through it. Let us know how it turns out.
 
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k^M

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Not sure about the area, but learned pretty quickly that people in Arkansas have blood hounds specifically for this kind of thing. Internet guy would do this on the weekends a lot when people went missing.

Definitely still worth trying if at all possible
 
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Cutlery

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I'm making my best estimation off an aerial map, you actually know the park.


I'd be curious to know how much information they supplied her with before she answered with that story. If all they described was his appearance or showed a picture of him then I'd say you've got a good clue to narrow the search area down (alas my poor western theory). If they mentioned the pistol and the implication that he was suicidal then it becomes more dubious but still plausible.

No no, I'm not begrudging your western theory at all. You're looking at it from a different way than I am, and that's why I thought it was interesting. I mean, shit, clearly I haven't found him yet, so my hunch is not right, so we gotta move on from that at some point.

And yes, his parents have royally screwed this shit up by being retards with the police. The minute they got into his house "oh, his gun is gone." Then when they found his car, the sheriff told them that they couldn't go into the park "because he was armed."

Hey dipshit, how about stop giving the police reasons to shoot your son when they find him?

I don't know how they asked the question or who the woman is, that's why I mark it as dubious from the get go.
 

Gavinmad

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I don't know how they asked the question or who the woman is, that's why I mark it as dubious from the get go.
If you really want to lay him to rest you need to dig into this. Get on his parents and find out EXACTLY what they said to her before she said she saw him. If she supplied accurate information that she wasn't given beforehand from shitty questioning then you've struck gold in narrowing down the search. For example If 'north of the campground' means north of the spot marked 'backpacking campsites' then you would eliminate over 90% of the park as your most likely searching area.


As close to word for word as possible find out exactly what this woman was asked, exactly what she said, and if anyone got contact information from her. Mark on that trail map roughly where she says she saw him turn around and head back north.
 
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Cutlery

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If you really want to lay him to rest you need to dig into this. Get on his parents and find out EXACTLY what they said to her before she said she saw him. If she supplied accurate information that she wasn't given beforehand from shitty questioning then you've struck gold in narrowing down the search. For example If 'north of the campground' means north of the spot marked 'backpacking campsites' then you would eliminate over 90% of the park as your most likely searching area.


As close to word for word as possible find out exactly what this woman was asked, exactly what she said, and if anyone got contact information from her. Mark on that trail map roughly where she says she saw him turn around and head back north.

Yeah, I know where she said on the map. I just don't know how leading they were with the questioning. I don't know about 90%, but 70% for sure. That's why I'm focusing on the north, and specifically the east, because that's the wooded area.

OnX lets me do shit like this, which I think is gonna help a fuckton. I can mark out areas, we can walk it, we can catalog this shit as searched, and just be very methodical about it.
Screenshot_20230522-212155.png
 
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BrutulTM

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I don't really know anything about this but there are dogs called cadaver dogs that are specifically used to find bodies, even underwater. Sniffing a cloth and tracking someone might be some super fancy bloodhound shit, but finding a dead body is very easy for dogs if they get anywhere close. Even a totally untrained dog is going to investigate if there's a decaying corpse nearby and I would think about taking my dog along even with zero training just because I might walk by something 10 feet away if it's behind a log or something but a dog won't.
 
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Borzak

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You may or may not be surprised how little people in the woods or brush actually look down at where they are walking. I noticed it in South, TX where I was with a group of 10 people or so. I was last in line and 9 of them would walk less than a foot from a diamond back rattler then I would say something they would freak out and go bananas. Similar happened multiple times.
 
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Cutlery

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Yeah, I'd bring my dog, but she's 12, and I'd be burying her next!

Stairs are a major challenge for her, she can sit out the 1600 acre search and enjoy her retirement
 
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Hateyou

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How old is your kid? I knew a kid in high school who came across a two week old suicide in the woods and it really fucked him up mentally, he wasn’t the same kid after that. It seemed like something you could shrug off back then but now that I’m older and see how impressionable kids are I get it. There’s a lot of stuff going on after someone is dead for a few days. Careful what you let your kid stumble across.
 
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Gavinmad

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How old is your kid? I knew a kid in high school who came across a two week old suicide in the woods and it really fucked him up mentally, he wasn’t the same kid after that. It seemed like something you could shrug off back then but now that I’m older and see how impressionable kids are I get it. There’s a lot of stuff going on after someone is dead for a few days. Careful what you let your kid stumble across.
Also might scare her straight.
 
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Cutlery

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How old is your kid? I knew a kid in high school who came across a two week old suicide in the woods and it really fucked him up mentally, he wasn’t the same kid after that. It seemed like something you could shrug off back then but now that I’m older and see how impressionable kids are I get it. There’s a lot of stuff going on after someone is dead for a few days. Careful what you let your kid stumble across.

She's 21.

But, this is the story with her.

I told her Saturday at like 11pm what happened. She got 3 hours of sleep and worked 6pm to 6am that day. She walked in the door at 630am Sunday, I was in the kitchen getting ready and she asked "when are we going?"

"Soon as I get my shit together."

We were driving out there and I asked her why she was coming with instead of going to bed, and she said "because if it was me out there, I know he would be out there with you."

She's a good kid. And he was a good dude.
 
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Cutlery

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The dad finally got back to me. They're bringing in 4 cadaver dogs tomorrow, so hopefully it'll all be over soon.
 
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lurkingdirk

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Holy mother of all that is holy. What an horrific story. Good on you for trying to lay this to rest, that's hard but necessary. You're a good dude, and I hope this mystery resolves itself quickly and as painlessly as possible.
 
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Cutlery

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Alright, well, got some more info from the parents, pretty satisfied I know why now. No point in explaining it here, guy doesn't deserve to have everyone know what was too much for him to handle for the rest of eternity. But at least I'm satisfied that I have some answers, and if we can find him instead of leaving him for the scavengers, then that should be the closure.

It still fucking sucks. Less than 2 months ago my best friend died in his sleep at 55. I can take the leaves outta my gaming table...I'm running outta friends.

Or maybe not. I'm genuinely shocked at how many people who didn't know him volunteered to come out with me to find him. Maybe I'm doing okay after all.
 
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pharmakos

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You're a solid bro but don't torture yourself.

View attachment 474880

It may not be the wildest terrain in the country but it still looks plenty rugged to me with plenty of long unbroken wooded stretches. If he was looking to not be found then you aren't gonna find him, especially with 4 days for scavengers to go to work. He also had the forethought to leave very early in the morning so there wouldn't be witnesses. If you really can't let it go I'd focus my searches on the western section of forest. The northeast may seem more overgrown but between the houses and the river it probably gets significantly more traffic. If I had chosen Afton and didn't want my body to be found, it would be somewhere in that western stretch.
1600 acres is only 2.5 square miles. That's doable as long as it's approached systematically / grid style. Not like they need to get it all done in a single day.
 
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Sludig

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1600 acres is only 2.5 square miles. That's doable as long as it's approached systematically / grid style. Not like they need to get it all done in a single day.
Minus the possibility of water or even doing something like pre burying yourself mostly. Or getting inventive and climbing a evergreen and tying yourself to the trunk depending how bad you didn't want to be found.
 
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Hoss

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I worked with one of those search teams BrotherWu mentioned once. I volunteered to spend a saturday beating the brush through a national forest. I learned a few things.

1. There are cadaver dogs, live find dogs, and a third kind that I can't remember right now. The dogs cannot be cross trained effectively.
2. Sometimes people who have one kind have others, but they don't bring more than one type because you work them differently.
3. Like BrotherWu said, there are groups who do this, get in contact with them, and if they've already been contacted, try to be there to help just to see how they work. They will always welcome volunteers. They might have reservations with you knowing the person, but if they do, then lie. Or hang around anyway and bring water to the volunteers. I know the group in my area but I don't know how to find others.
4. If it's not an emergency and can be planned for a weekend, you get a huge turnout. People with those dogs jump at the chance to get some work in. The time I did it, I can't even tell you how many dog teams we had, but they came from far away. I think some came from out of state. They told me if it hadn't been planned a week in advance, we would have likely only had one team.
5. Success is not guaranteed. For the one I did, the guy had been missing for over a month. The only reason they reopened it was because a hiker found his backpack with ID in a part of the forest they hadn't checked very well. When I asked the regulars what the odds were, they mostly just shook their heads. I think the only number I got was 1% because of how old it was. BrotherWu might be able to tell you more realistic odds for one as recent as yours.
 
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BrotherWu

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I worked with one of those search teams BrotherWu mentioned once. I volunteered to spend a saturday beating the brush through a national forest. I learned a few things.

1. There are cadaver dogs, live find dogs, and a third kind that I can't remember right now. The dogs cannot be cross trained effectively.
2. Sometimes people who have one kind have others, but they don't bring more than one type because you work them differently.
3. Like BrotherWu said, there are groups who do this, get in contact with them, and if they've already been contacted, try to be there to help just to see how they work. They will always welcome volunteers. They might have reservations with you knowing the person, but if they do, then lie. Or hang around anyway and bring water to the volunteers. I know the group in my area but I don't know how to find others.
4. If it's not an emergency and can be planned for a weekend, you get a huge turnout. People with those dogs jump at the chance to get some work in. The time I did it, I can't even tell you how many dog teams we had, but they came from far away. I think some came from out of state. They told me if it hadn't been planned a week in advance, we would have likely only had one team.
5. Success is not guaranteed. For the one I did, the guy had been missing for over a month. The only reason they reopened it was because a hiker found his backpack with ID in a part of the forest they hadn't checked very well. When I asked the regulars what the odds were, they mostly just shook their heads. I think the only number I got was 1% because of how old it was. BrotherWu might be able to tell you more realistic odds for one as recent as yours.

1. The three types area "Area Search", "Human Remains" and "Trailing". Area search is just like it sounds. They work off lead and can find, any person in the area, a specific person in an area, or a "large source" of human remains. HR dogs also work off lead and can find "Small Source" such as bone fragments, teeth, etc. Trailing dogs work on a lead and don't "air scent". They pick up scent directly off the ground. If you know a last-known position, they're usually the first type of dog used to establish a direction of travel.

2. If you don't have a last known position or a direction of travel but think they are in an area, you can break the area into sectors and work it with area search dogs. Usually a team will be at least one handler and 1-2 field support working the dog in a grid according to wind conditions, support working coms, navigating the sector, keeping the dog safe, etc.

3. More than likely, they would not welcome you on an active search regardless. For our teams, at least, there is quite a bit of training to be completed, background checks, etc. until you are on a callout. About 6 months to a year of training.

4. In MI, I have seen 10-15 dog teams on searches. Doesn't matter if it is a weekend, weekday, day or night. They'll show up.

5. Depends on the terrain and how clever or lost they are. If you find his vehicle within a day or two, chances are pretty good. I'd say 75%+ on the first day. The longer it goes before you start, it drops off some because you lose the original trail and then you're just using a process of elimination.

Sometimes, before starting any of this shit, you do a "hasty search" within a perimeter of the LKP. Maybe a couple hundred meters.

Good luck.
 
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Hoss

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3. More than likely, they would not welcome you on an active search regardless. For our teams, at least, there is quite a bit of training to be completed, background checks, etc. until you are on a callout. About 6 months to a year of training.

When i did it, the only training I had was CERT. Which is basically no training at all when it comes to searching. I think in CERT they taught us to fan out and stay within sight of each other, and that's about it. We did not work with the dogs though. We had our own areas and called in the dogs when we found a bone to determine if it was human. But the dogs also had their own area they were doing themselves.