Green Monster Games - Curt Schilling

Zehnpai

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It sounds like you were more in love with the perks and benefits of job A then anything having to do with the actual scheduling. Don"t get me wrong, I"m not a big fan of draconian time schedules but your post came out a little slanted there.

It"ll be mostly anecdotal either way anyways.

Anyways...

Personally for me, it"s never really been about the culture or environment. Sure that influences it obviously, but I can code for 10+ hours a day easy. However, after about 20 minutes of debugging I"m ready to go find something small to punch, no matter how many free soda"s you give me.
 

Flight

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Big W Powah! said:
Also; its a good idea to try and stop people from working destructive hours, even if it costs you a day or so in the schedule.
This is my problem, with regards to the demands I make on myself rather than on people working for me. Looking after my people is my biggest priority, but I"ll constantly push myself to the limit and beyond (not a good thing).
 

Drakonar_foh

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Flight said:
This is my problem, with regards to the demands I make on myself rather than on people working for me. Looking after my people is my biggest priority, but I"ll constantly push myself to the limit and beyond (not a good thing).
That"s what I was alluding to. We"re indestructible only for so long.
 

Teclisen_foh

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That Mike Capps quote was taken completely out of context. I know for a fact epic crunches less than a lot of companies, and the output = ferraris in the parking lot, consistently.

People can say all they want about poor management being the cause of crunch, or that good games can be made with 0 crunch, but the reality is that is NEVER true.

The universal rule of you get what you pay for couldn"t be more applicable in game development.

If anyone"s interested in what was actually said:


IGDA Leadership Forum 08 - "Studio Heads on the Hotseat"
 

Fog_foh

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Teclisen said:
That Mike Capps quote was taken completely out of context. I know for a fact epic crunches less than a lot of companies, and the output = ferraris in the parking lot, consistently.

People can say all they want about poor management being the cause of crunch, or that good games can be made with 0 crunch, but the reality is that is NEVER true.
That doesn"t make any sense to me. Suppose a game takes X man-hours for your team to complete. (Of course, X is a mystery in advance.) That X won"t be any smaller if you"re working 60-hour weeks instead of 40-hour weeks, right? It"ll just take 50% more days to finish with 40-hour weeks. I think we can all agree that you"re at least somewhat less productive in those extra 20 hours, so really the time difference won"t be quite as pronounced.

Either way, you could do the same work working 40-hour weeks if you had estimated your schedule right from the start, and calibrated your release dates appropriately. Correct? Of course, some companies and workers might want to work longer weeks to move things along, but it would get done either way.

I thought the issue was that management in the video game industry liked overtime because it"s largely unpaid overtime, and so they don"t really make any effort to create accurate 40-hour-week estimates, and leave you to make up the shortfall with "crunch time."

From an outsider point of view (I program for a living, but at a non-video-game-related company that doesn"t expect me to put in more than 40 hours a week) I feel kind of bad about the whole situation; it looks to me like companies just take advantage of the passion people have to fuck them over.

EDIT:Watching that video is weird. What do you mean, "the 9-5 workweek isn"t a fit for our industry?" That"s bizarre. What is it about writing video games that makes you want to tune out the rest of your life?

I understand that people are passionate about their job, but people are passionate about other jobs, too, and it doesn"t usually mean that you do nothing but work.
 

Lonin_foh

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Teclisen said:
That Mike Capps quote was taken completely out of context. I know for a fact epic crunches less than a lot of companies, and the output = ferraris in the parking lot, consistently.

People can say all they want about poor management being the cause of crunch, or that good games can be made with 0 crunch, but the reality is that is NEVER true.

The universal rule of you get what you pay for couldn"t be more applicable in game development.

If anyone"s interested in what was actually said:


IGDA Leadership Forum 08 - "Studio Heads on the Hotseat"
I think the point is that a) some companies aren"t compensating for huge amounts of overtime (EA was sued over this), and b) too much crunch time leads to developer burnout (which is extremely high in the games industry) and poor product quality.
 

Teclisen_foh

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Fog said:
That doesn"t make any sense to me. Suppose a game takes X man-hours for your team to complete. (Of course, X is a mystery in advance.) That X won"t be any smaller if you"re working 60-hour weeks instead of 40-hour weeks, right? It"ll just take 50% more days to finish with 40-hour weeks. I think we can all agree that you"re at least somewhat less productive in those extra 20 hours, so really the time difference won"t be quite as pronounced.

Either way, you could do the same work working 40-hour weeks if you had estimated your schedule right from the start, and calibrated your release dates appropriately. Correct? Of course, some companies and workers might want to work longer weeks to move things along, but it would get done either way.

I thought the issue was that management in the video game industry liked overtime because it"s largely unpaid overtime, and so they don"t really make any effort to create accurate 40-hour-week estimates, and leave you to make up the shortfall with "crunch time."

From an outsider point of view (I program for a living, but at a non-video-game-related company that doesn"t expect me to put in more than 40 hours a week) I feel kind of bad about the whole situation; it looks to me like companies just take advantage of the passion people have to fuck them over.
No.

There is a ton of effort to make accurate schedules. Specifically, EARS has invented new positions whose job it is to make sure the game can ship on time without causing crunch, but it still happens no matter how much effort is put into the schedule.

The thing about games is that shit can always be better, there can always be more stuff, and trying to estimate something like "make fun combat," is just not realistic. So while the 20 hours after 40 may be not as productive as they could be, it"s still more time. Most companies don"t get infinite time to produce a game, even blizzard with probably the most amount of pull in the industry to take as long as needed crunches insane amounts.

At some point you"re going to ship the game regardless of how complete it is, it"s just a matter of how much work you can get done in that time period. Companies like epic use their 2 years to their fullest, people working longer than 40 hour weeks to get that additional +3% metacritic when all is said and done.

Entertainment products aren"t like hardware, when you say something is "done," it doesn"t mean it"s going to score a 100% metacritic. In fact, no games ever score that meaning every game could have taken longer, could have used more work, etc.

What you"re saying is that regardless of time, a "quality" game could still be made in whatever time is allotted as long as the schedule is properly managed. But what does that mean? 80%? 85%? 90%? How can you determine how much time is needed to get what score? Half the time you don"t even identify what systems need to get reworked/polished further until they"re already implemented and you"re knee-deep in alpha.

The bottom line is that crunch is needed regardless, it happens in a ton of industries, not just video games. If there truly was some magical way to get around it, it wouldn"t be the case that literally EVERY company has it to varying degrees.
 

Teclisen_foh

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Lonin said:
I think the point is that a) some companies aren"t compensating for huge amounts of overtime (EA was sued over this), and b) too much crunch time leads to developer burnout (which is extremely high in the games industry) and poor product quality.
I agree with both of those points. Companies not compensating for crunch is an entirely different argument than how valid or necessary crunch is.

But with Epic"s case, they have one of the best compensation packages in the entire industry. Employees can make a ton of royalties based on the quality of their products, so there"s a huge incentive to put in extra time. Again, you get what you pay for. Mike also says when they do mandatory crunch it comes with serviced food and comp-days anyway, so you"re getting the time back. It"s just a matter of reaching certain deadlines.
 

Fog_foh

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Teclisen said:
The thing about games is that shit can always be better, there can always be more stuff, and trying to estimate something like "make fun combat," is just not realistic. So while the 20 hours after 40 may be not as productive as they could be, it"s still more time. Most companies don"t get infinite time to produce a game, even blizzard with probably the most amount of pull in the industry to take as long as needed crunches insane amounts.
That really is true for a lot of things, though. You just have to set a standard of quality and be happy about it when you get there. Is the game fun? Do you have the stuff you wanted to have, and if you"re missing some things that might take a long time, will you be able to patch them in later? Have you fixed all the important known bugs? Great, ship it. You could keep working and make some incremental polishing improvements, but nobody"s forcing you to.

I guess what you"re saying is that modern games are so big and difficult that no team can finish one with a competitive amount of quality in the 2 years or however long you have before the hardware and engine you"re building it on rot and your competitors are releasing cooler things. Frankly, I think the answer to that is that you should make games that are fun either this year or five years from now; there"s plenty out there. I reject the idea that your game would sell five million copies if you can make it in two years but be a commercial failure if you make it in two and a half.

Teclisen said:
What you"re saying is that regardless of time, a "quality" game could still be made in whatever time is allotted as long as the schedule is properly managed. But what does that mean? 80%? 85%? 90%? How can you determine how much time is needed to get what score? Half the time you don"t even identify what systems need to get reworked/polished further until they"re already implemented and you"re knee-deep in alpha.
It"s hard to determine; I know it"s even difficult for me personally, and most other programmers, to estimate how long it"ll take to do anything with software. But this is entirely the fault of the people doing the estimates. If you can"t make a realistic estimate, then I don"t think it"s good to make an unrealistic one and start whipping everyone later on to meet it. That"s really unfair if the people doing the work don"t want to sit around working 60 hour weeks for months to meet your lousy estimate.

I want to make it clear that crunch is obviously fine if all the employees want to work all day for that extra oomph. It sounds like Epic has a culture that makes it very clear to everyone involved that work has to be their primary passion and they will get rewarded for it. It"s a free country. However, I doubt everyone in the gaming industry shares their single-minded dedication, and I don"t see why that"s the only way of getting things done.
 

ToeMissile

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Teclisen said:
I agree with both of those points. Companies not compensating for crunch is an entirely different argument than how valid or necessary crunch is.

But with Epic"s case, they have one of the best compensation packages in the entire industry. Employees can make a ton of royalties based on the quality of their products, so there"s a huge incentive to put in extra time. Again, you get what you pay for. Mike also says when they do mandatory crunch it comes with serviced food and comp-days anyway, so you"re getting the time back. It"s just a matter of reaching certain deadlines.
I wouldn"t say that "crunch" is necessary, but it invariably happens in a lot of industries/situations. I don"t have any entertainment industry experience, but I was in the military for 6 years and saw my fair share of "crunch time". In my experience, leadership makes all the difference in these situations. If you know your supervisor/management will take care of you while/after you"ve busted your ass, you"re going to work as hard or harder and be much less disgruntled.
 

Big_w_powah

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Zehn - Vhex said:
It sounds like you were more in love with the perks and benefits of job A then anything having to do with the actual scheduling. Don"t get me wrong, I"m not a big fan of draconian time schedules but your post came out a little slanted there.

It"ll be mostly anecdotal either way anyways.

Anyways...

Personally for me, it"s never really been about the culture or environment. Sure that influences it obviously, but I can code for 10+ hours a day easy. However, after about 20 minutes of debugging I"m ready to go find something small to punch, no matter how many free soda"s you give me.
My point was that the perks, and the fact that the company went out of their way to do that stuff for us, made those long hours bearable and it didn"t really feel like work; I put in my full day there socializing with my co-workers, enjoying my time. Even after 2 months solid of 75+ hour weeks, I felt refreshed every morning on my way to work.
 

Flight

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Teclisen said:
That Mike Capps quote was taken completely out of context. I know for a fact epic crunches less than a lot of companies, and the output = ferraris in the parking lot, consistently.

People can say all they want about poor management being the cause of crunch, or that good games can be made with 0 crunch, but the reality is that is NEVER true.

The universal rule of you get what you pay for couldn"t be more applicable in game development.

If anyone"s interested in what was actually said:


IGDA Leadership Forum 08 - "Studio Heads on the Hotseat"
Thanks for that Tec, I found it so interesting I sat through the whole thing - sadly it was gone 3am when I clicked the link, so I"ll put some of the thoughts I have on it down sometime after I"ve had some sleep (its now 4.55am
 

imready2go_foh

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ToeMissile said:
If you know your supervisor/management will take care of you while/after you"ve busted your ass, you"re going to work as hard or harder and be much less disgruntled.
Heh, I remember years ago when I was working for the DoD during Desert Storm, people at my agency were busting 16-hour days for months. We did the work because it was important, but we figured in the end there would be ... something, some nice reward of some kind, you know? And there was - for upper management. They gave themselves nice $25k bonuses for their hard work. The grunts like me who did the shit work? We got coffee mugs. MF"ing coffee mugs. Hell, we would have settled for a sincere "thank you", but instead we got token crap.

Morale at that agency went in the toilet after that. It was never the same again really.

The managers who think a coffee mug - or any token crap "reward" - is an acceptable method to "take care of you while/after you"ve busted your ass" should be publicly beaten. The reward for a job well done doesn"t have to even be tangible, but it better be more than just an afterthought.
 
Watching the 08 leadership forum video knowing what happened at Big Huge Games a few weeks after is amazing...

And Curt"s guy comes off very grounded, much more than I expected looking at his profile on the 38s website.
 

Flight

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Ayeshala said:
Watching the 08 leadership forum video knowing what happened at Big Huge Games a few weeks after is amazing...

And Curt"s guy comes off very grounded, much more than I expected looking at his profile on the 38s website.
I"ve always believed Brett Close is a MASSIVE "asset" as far as 38S are concerned - moreso even than Curt, Todd or RA. More to come from me on that when I"m done chewing some things over, including the IGDA forum (yeah another multi-part, epic, QA and ethos in the industry post inc from Flight - be sure to miss it ).


edit : Posted the following on another forum just last night, coincidentally. (First time I"ve ever talked about Brett )

If I had to describe myself further, it would have to be as Brett Closes" long lost twin, in a shorter, heavier set, less good looking body Seriously though, listening to Brett speak and the ethos that just flows out of him is like listening to me thinking out loud, which is one of the main reasons I have such a fondness and admiration for the company and a belief in what they are going to do. It would be an absolute joy to either have him work for me or me work for him.
 

karuden_foh

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imready2go said:
Heh, I remember years ago when I was working for the DoD during Desert Storm, people at my agency were busting 16-hour days for months. We did the work because it was important, but we figured in the end there would be ... something, some nice reward of some kind, you know? And there was - for upper management. They gave themselves nice $25k bonuses for their hard work. The grunts like me who did the shit work? We got coffee mugs. MF"ing coffee mugs. Hell, we would have settled for a sincere "thank you", but instead we got token crap.

Morale at that agency went in the toilet after that. It was never the same again really.

The managers who think a coffee mug - or any token crap "reward" - is an acceptable method to "take care of you while/after you"ve busted your ass" should be publicly beaten. The reward for a job well done doesn"t have to even be tangible, but it better be more than just an afterthought.
What DOD agency were you at that the management was able to give themselves bonuses? I am sure that Congress and the IG"s office would interested in that little violation of standards of conduct. Or is that all BS......I vote BS.
 

Tananthalas

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Working for the DoD does not imply working under the DoD. It sounded more like a private contractor that he worked for, which do indeed receive bonuses and overtime.
 

Big_w_powah

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imready2go said:
Heh, I remember years ago when I was working for the DoD during Desert Storm, people at my agency were busting 16-hour days for months. We did the work because it was important, but we figured in the end there would be ... something, some nice reward of some kind, you know? And there was - for upper management. They gave themselves nice $25k bonuses for their hard work. The grunts like me who did the shit work? We got coffee mugs. MF"ing coffee mugs. Hell, we would have settled for a sincere "thank you", but instead we got token crap.

Morale at that agency went in the toilet after that. It was never the same again really.

The managers who think a coffee mug - or any token crap "reward" - is an acceptable method to "take care of you while/after you"ve busted your ass" should be publicly beaten. The reward for a job well done doesn"t have to even be tangible, but it better be more than just an afterthought.
I whole heartedly agree; Even if its a quick 10 minute gathering of all the guys and saying "Hey, we really appreciate what you guys did. You pulled us through; Helacious time and you guys kept plugging away. Damn good job, everybody" would be better than a fucking coffee mug.
 

karuden_foh

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Tananthalas said:
Working for the DoD does not imply working under the DoD. It sounded more like a private contractor that he worked for, which do indeed receive bonuses and overtime.
I notice he said my agency, which sure as hell doesn"t imply a private contractor.

Never seen a private contractor in my 23 years working for DoD that ever refered to themselves as an agency.