Green Monster Games - Curt Schilling

If you want more script go play a singleplayer game. Seriously, there are limitations when playing in an environment with other players.

LOTRO did this all instances. The story quests were pretty awesome but they had catalogues and novels full of information to create this instanced storylines. So, unless R.A. is creating a whole story arc to base the game on, you won"t get it. R.A. would have to write another series of books instead of lore and background history. He very well might do that. It would be pretty awesome to have books + MMO to be released at once, or books before the MMO then the game.

Ninja Edit:
Curt: Is this something you might want to look into? Have R.A. release a book or storyline or history stuff based on your MMO approximately 1 year to 6 months prior to Live? You could end up drumming of some good press. But then again, who knows what R.A. can do with his schedule.

However a storyline instance would be a cool feature to the game that you can update monthly and keep the end game storyline alive. It requires A LOT more dev time to create this consistently, so would you be content to see a new one every 3-6 months?

Tyen said:

It would be nice if it was more script and less collection, miniboss, fedex, etc.

Whether there is a good mixture its been done over and over and it drives me to boredom.

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They do serve their purposes, though. Miniboss for a combat challenge/drop; fed-ex as a transition to other places, collections for turn it, etc.

I agree though that if there"s an area you don"t want to skimp on, it"s lore. Even some scripting tying the purpose and side/single quests and subplots together would be helpful.

That being said, even in LOTRO (and I liked their model for story "chapters" as well) there were still quests of those types.


I admit I haven"t read the entire thread, but has there been any discussion about 38 Studios" plan/general ideas on crafting or any other spheres?

If you could integrate something like diplomacy into general interaction with NPC"s, but not make it overly predictable (Oblivion), that would be win. Perhaps make the difficulty based on a player"s faction range, and allow for other quests (epic/extensive) to be unlocked from certain NPCs based on their success.

Just a thought.

Draegan said:

If you want more script go play a singleplayer game. Seriously, there are limitations when playing in an environment with other players.

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I had no instances on my nwn server and I used scripting and cut scenes everywhere I possibly could...now granted this was only for 50-60 people at any one time, but I was also only leading a team of 2-3 at any time (including myself) and spent money only on the hardware and bandwidth required to run it.

I simply disagree that you cannot heavily use scripting to make your world seem alive just because it is an MMO.

-edit- actually check that, when you created your character you were actually run through what I"d consider an instanced cut scene.

NWN is NOT an MMO.

Just because you can do something there doesn"t mean it is doable on a much larger scale.

Twobit Whore said:

NWN is NOT an MMO.

Just because you can do something there doesn"t mean it is doable on a much larger scale.

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The limitations exist. The problem is, everyone keeps arguing against Fed-Ex, collection, # of kill quests, and want a more storyline-based/epic line.

Problem is, people get burned out or bored of working on the same line, don"t have the time for a major step, etc. Not that I"m saying subplots and other options aren"t available, but the other reason for those "miscellaneous" quests to exist is to give people something else to do, and especially in leveling (class or skill levels), a means to do it other than grinding.

Any suggestions for alternatives?

Twobit Whore said:

NWN is NOT an MMO.

Just because you can do something there doesn"t mean it is doable on a much larger scale.

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I think I pointed out that it was only for 50-60 players at peak, however just because I can do something doesn"t mean its NOT doable on a much larger scale. I believe with proper planning and a robust scripting engine you can do much more than I was able to do with the nwn engine. (most especially if I had access to the base code)

UnchainedAcolyte said:

The limitations exist. The problem is, everyone keeps arguing against Fed-Ex, collection, # of kill quests, and want a more storyline-based/epic line.

Problem is, people get burned out or bored of working on the same line, don"t have the time for a major step, etc. Not that I"m saying subplots and other options aren"t available, but the other reason for those "miscellaneous" quests to exist is to give people something else to do, and especially in leveling (class or skill levels), a means to do it other than grinding.

Any suggestions for alternatives?

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Here is one alternative, how about a gladiator arena? You log in, head over to the arena, strap on your helmet and sword and prepare for a randomly generated encounter complete with cheering/jeering crowd.

The ideas are out there, its up to the developer to look outside of the box to find them.

It was never the case that you COULDN"T do it. But it was more of the case of how it impacts people around you. There are plenty of scripted events in WOW dungeons that I know of.

Case in point like Unchained said, what else do you want? Think carefully. You have a whole zone, you populated it with caves and camps and war/battle fronts or towns or whatever you normally find in an area. What are you sending your players in there? Now you can"t have a full linear driven plot line through the whole zone because you need to keep your players there for a decent amount of time as they level.

You need to give players something to do in between these story elements. You can"t create enough content for an MMO if it"s entirely driven by story. So instead of fedex quests (which are there to force you to other places), instead of collection/kill quests, which give you grinding goals, what do you purpose to do? If you hate them so much come up with an alternative. Make sure you think from a dev point of view as well as a player point of view. You need to be able to get as much as you can from any form of content so players just don"t blow through it the first time around.

Daezuel said:

Here is one alternative, how about a gladiator arena? You log in, head over to the arena, strap on your helmet and sword and prepare for a randomly generated encounter complete with cheering/jeering crowd.

The ideas are out there, its up to the developer to look outside of the box to find them.

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That"s been done in WOW in several forms. I can think of two different occasions off the top of my head. Quest in Nagrand and the warrior berserker stance quest.

That"s really not outside the box.

Daezuel said:

Here is one alternative, how about a gladiator arena? You log in, head over to the arena, strap on your helmet and sword and prepare for a randomly generated encounter complete with cheering/jeering crowd.

The ideas are out there, its up to the developer to look outside of the box to find them.

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That would be a great one, also options for you and your group mates, and for different scenarios (thinking Gladiator and the "siege of Carthage" run).

Another idea I"ll throw in there: What about having NPCs approachyoubased on your level, faction, gender, secondary sphere, etc. and offer a quest/storyline tie-in?

Personally I"m tired of always seeking NPCs out. If I"m a hero well on my way, wouldn"t there be folks seekingmeout?

Random encounters complete with scripting, heck I"ll use Drizzt for an example.

In the Dark Elf Trilogy he would go out on patrols with his classmates...put the player characters in the role of a patrol for fast, easy experience.

The players accept the patrol, the server runs a script that randomly populates the caves with a few encounters...perhaps these encounters can lead to a devious plot against your house? Perhaps you ignore that lead and just go out and kill stuff.

There definitely needs to be some sort of sandbox here for players to do whatever they want outside of questing and I have plenty of idea"s on systems that could keep players involved but this really is outside of what we"ve been talking about over the past couple of pages.

I primarily was focusing on the quest delivery methods and why I think quest hubs ruin immersion.

Draegan said:

That"s been done in WOW in several forms. I can think of two different occasions off the top of my head. Quest in Nagrand and the warrior berserker stance quest.

That"s really not outside the box.

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Also the key quest in BRD.. and the entire Arena PvP system.. just add in some sound effects for the crowd and replace NPCs with real people.

Draegan said:

That"s been done in WOW in several forms. I can think of two different occasions off the top of my head. Quest in Nagrand and the warrior berserker stance quest.

That"s really not outside the box.

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Perhaps its not outside of the box as obviously you CAN find examples of this at work in todays MMOs...the quest in Nagrand you are talking about is a great example of this...heck I REMEMBER that quest because it was not another boring quest hub type of quest. I guess the point is that is an example of looking outside the box because it is not the norm.

WOW is full of scripted quests, but all you seem to remember are the filler ones. Hell all the top end quests in Netherstorm and SMV are full of interesting events. Great one is where you help a small force of guys to kill a large boss. It"s almost like a solo raid.

I think you would end up doubling if not tripling (who knows, maybe even more) your dev time if everything was scripted like this. Or else you end up with just grinding mobs inbetween these events. Producers and CEO"s don"t like more dev time because that = more money.

Draegan said:

WOW is full of scripted quests, but all you seem to remember are the filler ones. Hell all the top end quests in Netherstorm and SMV are full of interesting events. Great one is where you help a small force of guys to kill a large boss. It"s almost like a solo raid.

I think you would end up doubling if not tripling (who knows, maybe even more) your dev time if everything was scripted like this. Or else you end up with just grinding mobs inbetween these events. Producers and CEO"s don"t like more dev time because that = more money.

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Yes great, wow does a good job of this at times, why not go further than they did and do this everywhere? Why not deliver these quests via an interesting mechanic instead of a stationary quest giver that wants you to read his text to activate the encounter?

So what happens when the NPC that delivers this quest to someone and you come around looking for it? You now have to wait around for it. Or what happens if you miss it? Then find out about it weeks later and now are to high level for it and it"s boring? Stationary NPC quest givers are stationary so people can"t grief others. Some quests are mailed to you also I believe, which is neat. Games like Tabula Rasa radio in quests to you.

See my previous post about dev time for the reason why I think they don"t do that everywhere.

I wonder if there"s a market for progressive unlocking of features/events in a game. Ie, you start the game with only a few quests, like some light delivery ones. Everyone has access to these same delivery ones, but nothing else. When a person completes a delivery to a certain npc, that npc now offers to everyone a new quest. Ideally, you don"t level to 10 and get the "slay the orc chief" quest, but someone on the server has to have opened up that quest line before you can accept it. You could even put individual/party/guild names into the quest text of who enabled the quest.

Same goes for endgame content. Big Bad Undead citadel off in the woods has a series of prequests before you get a quest to go inside. Until then, nobody can enter said Citadel. Once someone has completed all the prequests, like the gates of Ahn"Qiraj it opens up and there"s a mini event, now it"s a normal dungeon. No silly resource collecting, just progressive content. Do this for every real "dungeon" in the game.

It would actually also help with people wanting the big guilds on their server to progress through the content, as it in turn means more available content for them. It would also help you gauge when you have to release additional content via patches or expansion. I"m not sure what precisely the technical parameters of that would be, but it"s been done before on the extremely large scale, so the smaller scale shouldn"t be that much more difficult to code.

Not really a solution to the never-ending Fed-Ex questlines of games post EQ1, but it"s an idea, so to speak.

Laerazi said:

For me, it"s not so much "Do I want to", but "Does gameplay allow me to".

I enjoy reading WoW"s quest text but it"s difficult to do so when the rest of your group has already mounted and started racing towards the quest target.

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When WoW was released I would often group with my two teenagers, however, they would accept a handful of quests at a quest hub and be off and running before I had even finished reading the first one. I was in a constant state of rush.

Armor/Weapon quests, constant farming of an area for random low drop armor and/or weapon "pieces" is not fun. Vanguards The Ancient armor quests at Wardship of the Sleeping Moon is/was a prime example where, after hours upon hours, my character eventually out leveled the area and never collected all the items needed so in the end I just gave up. Evil races starting out with a hefty faction negative did not help either.

Factions, in Wow pre-TBC I came to loathe the mere word. Argent Dawn, Cenarian, Furblog or whatever. I am all for gaining reputation with the magic roundabout but not if it is a fun less and painful time sink.

Quest chains, the Shadowhound quest in Vanguard was fun for me. The quests took me to all parts of the world where I got to see places that I might never have seen otherwise and at the end of the lengthy quest I had my sweet ride.

People vastly overstate the amount of Fed-Ex quests. You do one in WoW maybe every 5-10 levels or so. So let"s say 15-20 over the course of 70 levels. I don"t see how people can consider this too many. Unless people consider kill quests to be Fed-Ex quests.. but they aren"t. Fed-Ex is "take this somewhere" usually designed to introduce you to new places. Kill quests are designed to hide the grind. You"d be killing random shit anyway to level up so may as well get a bonus.