Green Monster Games - Curt Schilling

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Ngruk_foh

shitlord
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I get a bunch of emails keeping me posted on current MMO"s on the market, and others in development and I got to thinking, first as a player, and then as the founder of a company making an new IP.

Has there ever been a game, after release, that you played at launch and quit, and then had a patch or update that made you WANT to go back and seriously play again?

Not for me. I"ve gone back in spurts to EQ2, short ones, but there is not an MMO that I have ever played and quit, that did anything post launch to get me to come back. FWIW I didn"t quit EQ2 for any in game reason other than the players I played with scattered.

I mention this because I have always believed you really only have one shot to corral that initial huge launch audience. Or grab a significant and vocal group that expands your customer base themselves.

It"s not rocket science and I am not trying to overthink but as I look around the MMO space I can"t think of a game that didn"t do well at launch, and then grew at some point later to become a popular MMO.

That, and I also feel as if we truly are entering a period of time that sees players playing a game more for the fact that it"s where their guild or friends "hang out" every bit as much as it being a good game. True? False? Sort of?
 
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Vatoreus Malfost_sl

shitlord
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That would be EQ2, but I think you played through what most everyone referred to as the dark times (at least, that"s when I remember your "Beat Me Up" character on the newbie island from). EoF made a huge turn around on the game and brought a lot of people back to it, myself included. The game that EQ2 is currently is such a far cry from what it was a launch, in a MUCH better way.
 
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Nanaki Ikanan_foh

shitlord
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Ngruk said:
I get a bunch of emails keeping me posted on current MMO"s on the market, and others in development and I got to thinking, first as a player, and then as the founder of a company making an new IP.

Has there ever been a game, after release, that you played at launch and quit, and then had a patch or update that made you WANT to go back and seriously play again?

Not for me. I"ve gone back in spurts to EQ2, short ones, but there is not an MMO that I have ever played and quit, that did anything post launch to get me to come back. FWIW I didn"t quit EQ2 for any in game reason other than the players I played with scattered.

I mention this because I have always believed you really only have one shot to corral that initial huge launch audience. Or grab a significant and vocal group that expands your customer base themselves.

It"s not rocket science and I am not trying to overthink but as I look around the MMO space I can"t think of a game that didn"t do well at launch, and then grew at some point later to become a popular MMO.

That, and I also feel as if we truly are entering a period of time that sees players playing a game more for the fact that it"s where their guild or friends "hang out" every bit as much as it being a good game. True? False? Sort of?
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EQ2 definitely got way better as it went, but nothing made me go back to it after my initial impressions.

But I think you have a pretty valid point. That first impression is so important, it"s almost impossible to get customers back if they already have a bad memory of the game.

To the other point, about entering a period of time that sees players playing more to hang out with guild and friends, I think it"s actually going the opposite. I played a lot more for friends and guildies back during the Everquest 1 days. Back when accomplishments meant something, where you felt a stronger bond with your fellow players when you worked hard to level up and raid bosses and get amazing gear. With the "welfare epics" of World of Warcraft, and the ease of MMORPGs in general, there"s less camaraderie and close friendships between players, and more of a "It"s all about me" mentality. I very rarely feel close to any of my guildmates now, and when they quit, it"s never as big of a deal to anyone in the guild, because there"s just not that bond established between us. I guess it"s hard to get a strong bond between players and guildmates when it only takes a month to get to max level, and raid encounters and quests are spelled out on websites step by step before anyone has ever even encountered them on live servers. Compare that to people playing Everquest for one, two, maybe even 3 years before hitting max level, and raiding...it"s just not the same anymore.
 
Valderen

Valderen

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Ngruk said:
Has there ever been a game, after release, that you played at launch and quit, and then had a patch or update that made you WANT to go back and seriously play again?
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Yes and no, it really depends on why I quit in the first place...

If I quit because I don"t like something about the game, graphics, game mechanics, or bugs and poor release quality etc...no patch or updates have ever gotten me into playing it again.

If I quit because I run out of things to do, then yes I have come back for expansions. I"ve done this many times throughout my eq1, eq2 and wow career...but this might be seen more as just taking a break rather then outright quitting....although most of the times I do cancel my account for the duration. For WoW...I took over a year break just before TBC came out and then I came back. I did this many times in EQ1 and EQ2 where I would stop playing for 3-6 months just before an expansion came out.

So yeah, you have one chance to get me hooked, if you miss, you"ll most likely never see me again...if you do get me hooked, I might quit or take breaks once in a while but will come back as new content is delivered.
 
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Draegan_sl

2 Minutes Hate
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One and done. If you don"t wow me (no pun intended) in the first days, hours of me playing I"ll never come back for more an extended period of time. I"ve resubbed twice after my original purchase to EQ2 to check things out, but I never played more than a few weeks, if that, after resubbing.

LOTRO - I just resubbed once out of bordom, I played about 1 month after release. I think I played 3 days and quit again.

EQ2 - described above

VG - Yeah, well, you know.

CoX - I"ve resubbed once or twice to play around a little bit. Mostly for the character creator, which is cool to play with.

POTBS - I played for 3-4 days and never logged in again. Not a fun game.

EVE - Resubbed once, but not for long. Less than a month.

I can"t think of any other major MMOs recently that I"ve spent money on.

Oh and WOW. I"ve quit 2-3 times but I"ve always come back to play for many months afterwards, it"s the only one I"ve done this with.
 
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Column_sl

shitlord
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Curt I wouldn"t even try a MMO in this market, the best you can do is hope Sony buys it from you so you can break even.
 
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Nanaki Ikanan_foh

shitlord
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Ngruk said:
...That, and I also feel as if we truly are entering a period of time that sees players playing a game more for the fact that it"s where their guild or friends "hang out" every bit as much as it being a good game. True? False? Sort of?
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Another thing that i think makes games less about guildies and friends and more about self-accomplishments is the fact that a lot of games are catering to the solo crowd. Now, I like soloing, it"s great to be able to accomplish things without waiting for other players. It"s so nice to be able to get to max level in World of Warcraft all by myself.

But the downside is, it"s very isolating. Instances and Soloing really isolate the player, and keep these strong bonds between guildies and players from forming. I remember I was still friends with people in Everquest 1 even though I only grouped with them a few times from level 5-15ish. So many people to meet in instances, in groups, just helping each other out. It"s that isolation that kills a lot of the friendships in these games as well.

I know that in World of Warcraft, if my guild falls apart or all my friends quit (except a few real life friends) I just keep playing and find more people to play with. I"m not saying soloable content or instancing is a bad thing, I think it"s awesome, but I just see this lack of friendship and strong bonds between players as a side-effect.
 
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Ngruk_foh

shitlord
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column said:
Curt I wouldn"t even try a MMO in this market, the best you can do is hope Sony buys it from you so you can break even.
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Why? That makes zero sense. What do you mean by "this market"? The MMO world is still years from maturing, and mature it might still be very similar to what it is today, but in my opinion it still has a long way to go.

Under that philosophy people should have stopped trying to make sci-fi movies after Star Wars? Or stop making Fantasy movies after Excalibur?

People rarely remember who does things first, but everyone remembers who does it best don"t they?
 
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Northerner_foh

shitlord
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Ngruk said:
Under that philosophy people should have stopped trying to make sci-fi movies after Star Wars?
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Well, I can think of one guy that should have stopped after Star Wars (or at least after the original trilogy)...
 
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findar_foh

shitlord
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depends how good the underlying fun factor is. if the game is fun but something comes up that makes me wanna take a break, sure ill come back if its fixed. if its not that fun in the firstplace, and i quit after a culmination of shitfest, no im not gunna end up returning.

friend factor will mitigate the suckage of gameplay to a point. you can only play maplestory with friends so long before you realize how much you hate korea.
 
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Column_sl

shitlord
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Ngruk said:
Why? That makes zero sense. What do you mean by "this market"? The MMO world is still years from maturing, and mature it might still be very similar to what it is today, but in my opinion it still has a long way to go.

Under that philosophy people should have stopped trying to make sci-fi movies after Star Wars? Or stop making Fantasy movies after Excalibur?

People rarely remember who does things first, but everyone remembers who does it best don"t they?
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Curt you don"t even have one AAA title under your gaming company,and you want to jump into the hardest genre in gaming history. Even Lucas put out THX and American graffiti before starwars....( see wut I did thar)

You need an IP to even compete,and all the popular IP"s are gone now and failed..,or will fail in the future (Aoc,War)


Everquest was a total fluke. It just came at the right time. I wouldn"t think about putting a MMO out until the veil of WoW has been lifted. Its cool to try new things ,but you need to have a workable plan..

If it was me I would at least try out the regular game market first and then build up to something like MMO.

Just remember all the PR in the world will not save you from this board, if your game is in beta and even hints of sucking this board will tear you a new asshole ( have we forgotten Vanguard??)
 
James

James

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Ngruk said:
Under that philosophy people should have stopped trying to make sci-fi movies after Star Wars? Or stop making Fantasy movies after Excalibur?

People rarely remember who does things first, but everyone remembers who does it best don"t they?
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Ok but you have to agree you can"t get much better than a cracked out Merlin going apeshit on Morgana, or a long alcoholic Arthur throwing Excalibur down between his former best man and his wife who really shouldn"t have been expected to remain faithful to a dude we can only assume was limp at best for the greater part of 10 years or so. That movie was so awesome.

Sure, everyone remembers who does it best, but the people whodoit the best typically know who does it first, if you catch my drift. That said, I quit WoW shortly after release (1.3?ish) because everything in the game at that point had been beaten, and playing a warrior FUCKING SUCKED BALLS. I came back later after they fixed many of the issues and have found it quite enjoyable (except for the period from BC"s release to 2.2 or so where it seems like they COMPLETELY FUCKING FORGOT everything they did in 1.x to make the game better). I also quit EverQuest in Luclin and came back for PoP"s release through to WoW beta.

I did not go back to Anarchy Online after their aborted ass launch, I did not go back to Asheron"s Call after spending 3 minutes in the game and realizing I"d rather suck off a horse than play that piece of shit, I did not go back to DAoC after getting up to level 40 or so.


EDIT: Also, both WoW and EverQuest had two of the absolute worst launches in MMO history save for MAYBE Anarchy Online (maybe), but have been the front runners of the genre for the greater part of a decade now. EverQuest, in particular, didn"t start picking up momentum until Christmas 1999 as I recall, and even then the game only steadily grew until WoW"s release. I"m not sure if you were around for EQ"s launch or not, but I was, and it fucking sucked. It was literally unplayable across all servers for damn near a week. Granted, it wasn"t really EQ"s fault, but still. I don"t think I got as frustrated with AO"s launch as I did with EQ"s.
 
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Column_sl

shitlord
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EQ definitely had the worst launch. I must of read the Everquest strat guide like 10 times while I waited to play that game LULZ..
 
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Blitzspear_foh

shitlord
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column;1033688 said:
You need an IP to even compete,and all the popular IP"s are gone now and failed..,or will fail in the future (Aoc,War)
You really think a company that has the services of Todd McFarlane, and R. A. Salvatore at their disposal is going to struggle in creating an engaging intellectual property worthy of an MMO? Seriously, have you read some of the crap that goes into this genre of games?

Most IP?s that have been made to fit into an MMO setting usually upset the hardcore fan base more than they attract from it. At least with this MMO, they have the name of two creative talents to draw on, who have a solid fan base in their respective fields, and they no set expectations to ruin which usually happens with the bastardisation of an established IP.

Plus, that little green squig is awesome, how can they possibly fail after that?
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Column_sl

shitlord
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Blitzspear;1033806 said:
column;1033688 said:
You need an IP to even compete,and all the popular IP"s are gone now and failed..,or will fail in the future (Aoc,War)
You really think a company that has the services of Todd McFarlane, and R. A. Salvatore at their disposal is going to struggle in creating an engaging intellectual property worthy of an MMO? Seriously, have you read some of the crap that goes into this genre of games?
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IMHO Salvatore and Mcfarlane do not sound like a good pairing to me,but thats beyond the point...


The point would be that your company itself can be the IP if the games you make are incredible..Green Monster games doesn"t even have that.
Lets be honest the only thing going for this company right now is that it has a sports celebrity backing it. Mcfarlane and Salvatore are not going to get you on the news..

Salvatore was involved with EQ2 and that turned out not so good. Mcfarlane was doing the redesigns for UO,and that game didn"t even make it out of the gate.

You need to walk before you run. Green Monster should probly try to get at least one regular game out to the public before they start on this risky venture.
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Column_sl

shitlord
9,833
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Draegan said:
You guys should of easily picked up from this thread how 38S plans to establish their IP.
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How do they plan to establish there IP? If its not through hit games,they might as well give up.

Curts name will only take him so far,eventually he will have to show something.

I do wish him the best of luck tho, I would love to eat my words and they make the greatest game ever.
 
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Bankok_foh

shitlord
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Ngruk said:
I mention this because I have always believed you really only have one shot to corral that initial huge launch audience. Or grab a significant and vocal group that expands your customer base themselves.

It"s not rocket science and I am not trying to overthink but as I look around the MMO space I can"t think of a game that didn"t do well at launch, and then grew at some point later to become a popular MMO.

That, and I also feel as if we truly are entering a period of time that sees players playing a game more for the fact that it"s where their guild or friends "hang out" every bit as much as it being a good game. True? False? Sort of?
Click to expand...
I think you are right in your assessment, in fact I would wager when you talk about your "one shot" to grab that audience, people make up their minds within a couple hours of playing. What WoW did brilliantly, and others since have followed is make it easy on a player right from the beginning. "Hey there is a guy with an exclamation mark, I should talk to him." I think the most amazing thing about WoW was that in most respects it lived up to its hype, no other release has really done that.

The only game I can think of that didn"t really kick ass coming out of the gates and had it"s subscriptions substantially increase is EVE and perhaps EQ2 (not sure where that is on subs now compared to launch)

Between EQ and WoW, there is only one game I can think of, and if I"m wrong I"m sure I"ll be corrected, that released smoothly and for the first year or two gained subs, and that was DAOC. Since WoW/EQ2, I think Guild Wars and LOTRO are the only two that have been released stable and to no shock, they"ve kept a good deal of their subs.
 
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Ngruk_foh

shitlord
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column;1033839 said:
Blitzspear;1033806 said:
column said:
IMHO Salvatore and Mcfarlane do not sound like a good pairing to me,but thats beyond the point...

How do they plan to establish there IP? If its not through hit games,they might as well give up.
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Huh? These two guys have spent 25+ years each doing nothing but building from original IP they created. It"s what they do, and have done, forever. Have they worked on other stuff, sure, have they done stuff judged on both ends of the spectrum? What great artist hasn"t? Bottom line is I am pretty comfortable in backing both of their abilities to help build out an original IP into something crossing all lines of media from a presentation standpoint.

As to the second point I am not sure that"s a well thought out statement.
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