Except in co-op you have to have your friends on to do anything, in an MMO you can do whatever whenever, and have your friends along as well.
Green Monster Games - Curt Schilling
- Thread starter Lord Thanos_foh
- Start date
Not sure that"s possible in this forum! Just like to try and keep on topic if we can or else we"re wasting each others time trying to talk about games and design and players design likes and dislikes!Draegan said:
Did "The Instance" last night, what a fantastic group of guys!
The Instance! World of Warcraft Podcast ? The Instance #102 - "The Curt Schilling Episode"
I for one think instancing as done in WOW was a pretty successful endevour. The mix of a un-instanced world with alot of non-instance content and the smattering of instanced dungeons and raid areas was almost perfect. WOW gave you non-instanced raid content in the original world with the world dragons, and it gave you a very good amount of instanced raid zones as well.
I was a firm dis-believer of instancing in the beginning, and the way it was used in EQ2 reaffirmed my hate of it instancing the entire outdoor world making the game world not feel continuous at all. WOW on the other hand surprised me, the world felt continuous, the instances might be a slight bit unimmersive but the benefit of being able to actually do dungeons that are events in themselves such as Sunken Temple WAY outweigh the negatives of slightly less immersion. Without instancing there is no way you could do a dungeon like Sunken Temple, and it is one of the best dungeon experiences I ever had.
Honestly, I think any game comming out in the future should probably use instancing in a similar manner to that which WOW used it. Keep the main world non-instanced and instance most of the dungeon content and alot of the raid content. That said there should (as WOW did) be raid content and some dungeon content that is not instanced, WOW had both, although most of the non-instanced dungeons were lacking in named mobs and the like which should not be the case.
I was a firm dis-believer of instancing in the beginning, and the way it was used in EQ2 reaffirmed my hate of it instancing the entire outdoor world making the game world not feel continuous at all. WOW on the other hand surprised me, the world felt continuous, the instances might be a slight bit unimmersive but the benefit of being able to actually do dungeons that are events in themselves such as Sunken Temple WAY outweigh the negatives of slightly less immersion. Without instancing there is no way you could do a dungeon like Sunken Temple, and it is one of the best dungeon experiences I ever had.
Honestly, I think any game comming out in the future should probably use instancing in a similar manner to that which WOW used it. Keep the main world non-instanced and instance most of the dungeon content and alot of the raid content. That said there should (as WOW did) be raid content and some dungeon content that is not instanced, WOW had both, although most of the non-instanced dungeons were lacking in named mobs and the like which should not be the case.
Nothing in there says they have to be in the same thread. I think the point is this would be under valid discussion, and we should try to keep it that way. I for one have been following this thread since the beginning and while I don"t comment in it much I find it to be one of the better discussions on this forum.The Hiram Key said:
Attn: retard. WoW is the most competitive MMOG to date. It can be proven with 2 urls:etchazz said:
SK Gaming | World of Warcraft Arena Ranking
WowJutsu: World of Warcraft Guild Rankings: All Realms
The equivalent of EQ"s BoTB are happening in WoW 24 hours a day, for both PVE and PVP, and they are numerically ranked. There is no dispute in if guild TeamA>TeamB at wining games, or GuildA>Guild B at killing raid mobs, just look at those sites.
If you are truly about "competition" you would would realize that instancing in PVE creates more competition because more people have access to the content. Unless you define "competition" in the old-school EQ manner: who can log on the most hours. In which case you are just a fucking buffoon.
Why don"t you roll a character now and get back to us when you clear Sunwell or get an Arena mount. I"m willing to bet that will never happen, since mommy said you are special but when you throw a million people into the mix you are average just like everyone else.
Rangoth
Blackwing Lair Raider
- 1,561
- 1,704
instancing stuff...
I"m not sure if I am just insane or what but when Vanguard once touted it"s AES, I really did believe it was the end all be all of this instancing bullshit. Of course I think it never made it in to the game or did in such broken form none of it mattered
Bottom line is for raiding/rare single mobs or events they can never be uninstanced again. Unless they are just some fluff mob not tied to progression or important story in anyway(like WoW had the 4 extra dragons and crap that didn"t mean shit but some extra loot and fun). If it is part of the raiding game or progression game it must be instanced to give everyone a fair and equal shot at it. The days of who can log in the most, as posted above and said elsewhere a hundred times over, is past and it should remain that way.
But I also like the open non-instanced dungeons...so what do we do? This is where I think AES came in but failed. As a quick note, I also am perfectly happy with EQ2"s method of balancing it over population so that its never too crowded you can"t do anything, but enough that it feels like a community area. What I thought AES were supposed to be is an open dungeon for everyone, no instance, but if you did something(kill 100 ants, loot a letter, pick up an item off the ground, whatever) it would start a chain of events. You would then fight your way to the king"s room after reading the letter and it would appear empty to those outside. Once you cross this invisible line or whatever(shit you can even zone so long as it doesnt pause the game to load) there are now mobs in there and the king is up with his badass guards or whatever. You kill him with your group and then leave the room and you are back in the public area. Named mob, significant to story, quest, lore, whatever, but still community dungeon. Assuming this could even be done what are people"s problems with it if there are any? Does this not address the issue of how to keep the public feel but allow for cool scripted events AND equal chance at named? Plus you can still spawn normal named around where people camp/crawl.
I just always thought that was so awesome. Maybe that was never AES and I read it wrong, but I love the idea anyway. Another mini-example of this was PoN in EQ. The hedge event could be spawned by multiple parties to do at once(3 to be exact). Same concept. PoN is this big open XP zone with some named and shit, but then there is this scripted event to move your character to the next level of progression(PoNb to kill a god). And everyone could do this at the same time even though the overall zone was an open community melting pot.
Comments? Flames?
I"m not sure if I am just insane or what but when Vanguard once touted it"s AES, I really did believe it was the end all be all of this instancing bullshit. Of course I think it never made it in to the game or did in such broken form none of it mattered
Bottom line is for raiding/rare single mobs or events they can never be uninstanced again. Unless they are just some fluff mob not tied to progression or important story in anyway(like WoW had the 4 extra dragons and crap that didn"t mean shit but some extra loot and fun). If it is part of the raiding game or progression game it must be instanced to give everyone a fair and equal shot at it. The days of who can log in the most, as posted above and said elsewhere a hundred times over, is past and it should remain that way.
But I also like the open non-instanced dungeons...so what do we do? This is where I think AES came in but failed. As a quick note, I also am perfectly happy with EQ2"s method of balancing it over population so that its never too crowded you can"t do anything, but enough that it feels like a community area. What I thought AES were supposed to be is an open dungeon for everyone, no instance, but if you did something(kill 100 ants, loot a letter, pick up an item off the ground, whatever) it would start a chain of events. You would then fight your way to the king"s room after reading the letter and it would appear empty to those outside. Once you cross this invisible line or whatever(shit you can even zone so long as it doesnt pause the game to load) there are now mobs in there and the king is up with his badass guards or whatever. You kill him with your group and then leave the room and you are back in the public area. Named mob, significant to story, quest, lore, whatever, but still community dungeon. Assuming this could even be done what are people"s problems with it if there are any? Does this not address the issue of how to keep the public feel but allow for cool scripted events AND equal chance at named? Plus you can still spawn normal named around where people camp/crawl.
I just always thought that was so awesome. Maybe that was never AES and I read it wrong, but I love the idea anyway. Another mini-example of this was PoN in EQ. The hedge event could be spawned by multiple parties to do at once(3 to be exact). Same concept. PoN is this big open XP zone with some named and shit, but then there is this scripted event to move your character to the next level of progression(PoNb to kill a god). And everyone could do this at the same time even though the overall zone was an open community melting pot.
Comments? Flames?
except that in WoW, pvp is mainly instanced, which is fucking gay. i don"t want to play an MMO to capture a fucking flag, i want full FFA pvp in a non instanced world with the ability to loot the people i kill; not just enter an instance to gain points. i really enjoyed playing EQ, but i do wish it had full pvp so that if someone decided to perma camp somewhere, you could at least have a chance to kill them and take over the camp.Froofy-D said:
i"ve been checking outHome | Mortal Onlinea lot. sounds like it"s going to have everything i want in a mmo: full non instanced pvp world, named mobs that once killed never respawn (no more camping) and full loot (i hope). hopefully, it doesn"t become vaporware but so far it seems like it"s going to be a pretty great game for the non carebear/WoW crowd and despite what people may think, there are plenty of gamers out there who are looking for this kind of challenge in a MMO.
Sorry, but that game will likely never see the light of day. It"s just another bs title like Darkfall trying to act like they"re bringing back the glory days of UO.etchazz said:
Also, you really buy into the "named mobs that, once killed, never respawn" thing? It"ll never happen.
There is AES in Vanguard right now, not many events at all use it, but Patheon of the Ancients does use it.rangoth said:
There is a niche crowd that likes this....very niche. Then there is this legion of folks that think they like it because of the rose colored memories they had of something similar. Tons of those same folks strode with confidence onto the WOW PvP servers and talked big and then quietly rerolled on PvE and stopped talking after getting corpse camped and a few other very minor things.etchazz said:
There is a spot for these games. They are small, social, and need to be exactingly designed for their little niche. Think Eve. But it can be done....if you build the game to the niche. If you build it with the niche in mind and then throw in WOW on top of it so you can get a lot of people then you are just screwed both ways.
James
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
- 2,804
- 7,056
On the flip side, of course, players are limited to only the 10(?) realms in their battlegroup to compete against. Thus when you"re talking about the very best of the best players, no, you can"t say that X team is better than Y team based on their rating -- they may have never even played each other, let alone the competition each beat to get where they were. It"s actually somewhat of a problem, with many of the top PvPers picking certain realms/battlegroups to be the designated l33t sauce group for PvP.Froofy-D said:
Personally, I"d like to see some sort of a bracket system that players can move up in that gradually broadens the server selection available. Get 2200 rating in bracket 1 (regular battlegroup), move onto bracket 2 (two to four battlegroups), get 2200 in bracket 2, move on to bracket 3, and so on and so forth until you"re in the top bracket that covers, hopefully, the entire world. I"d think it would even help cut down on point selling too if you lose your spot in the brackets if you reroll, but I don"t think it would eliminate it. At any rate, it would at least cut down on battlegroup/server load a bit if anyone seriously interested in the PvP game feels like they have to move to a certain server to get the best competition, or most recognition.
Well aside from looting the people you kill, you still have full fledged pvp on pvp servers. Sure the real loot is in the instances so that is where most level capped people go, but do you really want to bring back the whole "camping" thing again in games?etchazz said:
I disagree, EQ competition was more interesting just because of the extra efforts guilds had to make to complete something first. I couldn"t tell you who killed Ragnaros or Onyxia first in WoW, but back in the EQ days everyone knew who was killing Nagafen or clearing ToV or whatever the current uber race was about. WoW competition is just not as nearly as engaging, there are 300 some servers, and literallythousandsof guilds ahead of mine in progression. Most WoW raid bosses are already on Wowwiki.com with strats and ability spoilers before the patch is even released these days. The only competition is who can spend the most time the first day or two post patch more than anything. Boring and not interesting. No drama. No "you have 14 days" or awesome pictures of the charmed giants tanking the AOW or Tigole"s awesome posts about USC or UCLA (or whichever wimpy Pac-10 team he likes!) mixed in with commentary on LoS"s latest challenges. Just corporate sponsored stooge monkeys like Nihilium that pale in comparison. /yawn.Froofy-D said:
WoW"s Arena system is a shit-fest of exploitation and "stacked class" teams. Teams exploiting their way to 2k while cross server instances were down for a few days by loading up their own crappy alt teams to beat over and over at 3am? Smurfing. Many class/specs not being viable in most of the arena matches and other classes being near dominating in every type? The balance is a sad joke.
All that said, I do like instancing because I never have to wait for other groups to complete whatever they are doing before I get my turn. I just think the "competition" in WoW has earned a big "meh".
watFrax said:
because *most* of the time the game works properly. and uh, tell xi and d&t about that "14 days" stuff. drama is always there, there is just so much you can only keep an eye on your own server"s. just because you dont pay attention to it doesnt mean other people dont see it.Frax said:
digo has mirror"d tigole"s style fairly well. ask him for the casual website.Frax said:
most classes have more then 1 arena spec. warriors are the only ones that get the "shit end" of the stick so to say on this. balance isnt perfect but they are constantly tweaking it to make it better.Frax said:
wait wait wait. so now every guild is at an even starting point to "race" and that isnt competition? the fuck are you smoking? this all being said, you have some serious rose colored glasses about EQ. go back and play it now and tell us how awesome it is.Frax said: